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Duplicate 4473's stipulated by this dealer for GB pickup

offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
edited March 2002 in General Discussion
Well, I picked up my second gun from a local FFL holder yesterday, based on another auction win on Gunbroker. This guy had me fill out duplicate yellow 4473 forms, apparently so that he would have one to keep. I had the impulse to tell him to use a copier if he wanted a copy, but I went ahead and filled out the second form. I realize looking back that this was not a good idea, in general. While it may be okay this time, I've filled out 4473s twice and only picked up one gun. Anybody care to speculate on what jeopardy I MIGHT have been putting myself in? I can think of a few scenarios. Also he tells me that he must keep his 4473s for 20 years according to current law, and turn them in with his bound book if he ever stops renewing his FFL. All true?
"The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
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Comments

  • BoomerangBoomerang Member Posts: 4,513
    edited November -1
    Dunno! Too bad there is not a link on this board so we can get the straight skinny from BATF on these questions. We all want to do it right, but when one does not know, trouble happens. Boomer
    Protect our Constitutional Rights.
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  • AntiqueDrAntiqueDr Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    That's ridiculous. There is absolutely no reason to fill out two forms. The dealer is required to keep the completed 4473's until he surrenders his license, then those forms are sent to an ATF depository. Once he surrenders his license and sends his forms in, the ATF will not be contacting him for any traces.Just another example of somebody who would be better off flipping burgers.
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  • gundawggundawg Member Posts: 32 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    yes, that makes no sense at all. There's no need for him to have a "copy to keep" becausehe does not send in the original copy like some people may think. It's just kept in his files for 20 years, or till end of business & then sent to ATF. Sounds strange to me, especially since he could just make a photo copy like you said. Might want to ask some other people who have dealt with him to see if that is his routine, or not. One 4473 is enough paperwork, can't understand any dealer wanting to do 2 for each tansaction.
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  • MFIMFI Member Posts: 7,899 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Only one copy is required. Did you ask him why he needed two ?
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  • competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,696 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    LIKTOSHOOT raises an interesting point. offerer,Did he fill out the details of the specific firearm you purchased on both forms infront of you? In ink?What if he is selling to someone else "off the books" while you are ending-up as the "official" legal purchaser of a firearm you've never laid eyes on?
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  • S&W ManS&W Man Member Posts: 208 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Not only would I question filling out a duplicate form as there is NO reason for it, whenever I fill out one I make sure that every line for the gun description and s/n that is not used is marked out so nothing can be added later. It has happened around this area before.
    The second admendment GUARANTEES the other nine and the Constitution!
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  • Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Gundawg is right on the money. The dealer only needs one copy, which he holds onto until the 20 year mark, or he goes out of bidness. If it were me, I'd go back and ask him "WTF?". If the answer wasn't satisfactory, I'd call my local Sheriff.
    Stand And Be Counted
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  • crisisbillcrisisbill Member Posts: 487 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    There was a dealer in my part of the state a fews years back that was doing this, he was using the extra form to sell firearms to people that would not clear NICS and making a little side money.One of my customers was buying a gun from him and when asked to make out the extra form,he refused and reported him to ATF, he is no longer in in the area........
    If you Fail to Prepare, Prepare to Failfreetog@ulster.net
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have e-mailed him and recommended that he destroy the duplicate original with my signature on it, indicating that the ATF intends that there be one and only one 4473 per firearm transaction, and that the ATF would probably "frown on" the practice of a gun dealer's having two forms filled out and signed in ink for one gun. I will let you all know what the response is. Of course you are outlining the very scenario I started to worry about on the way home. I thought I was doing the guy a favor because he worked out of home and probably had no copy machine, but then I felt foolish after I had a chance to think it over. As I told you, there are some strange bird FFLers around here. One won't let you use the U.S. mail for Gunbroker because he's not home during the day but has a deal with UPS and FedEx to leave packages using copy of his key (and sign for him too, I wonder?).Then there's the guy who shows his merchandise only by appointment and tries to charge you $5.00 if you want to leave without buying anything. I have found a lot of small businesses in this area of Indiana, not just in the gun line, that are run by bosses who know nothing about standard business practice, and re-invent the wheel, making up rules as they go along, often in total ignorance of the laws governing everything from employees to taxes. I usually horrify such people by coming along to champion professionalism, quality and customer satisfaction. It cuts into "bossism," which they think of as their American right to personal freedom. About a year ago I worked for a small firm here where the boss started a staff meeting by reading from the Bible the parable that ends with "may a man not spend his own money as he wishes?" -- thinking that that would be a lesson for all of us. Needless to say the concensus after that meeting was a lot of eyeball-rolling employees. I figure there's a 50-50 chance that this FFLer will either a) courteously comply with my suggestions or b) take the attitude that I'm an annoying crackpot who is stepping on his toes and he won't want to do any more business with me. I'll let you know which it is.
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."[This message has been edited by offeror (edited 03-02-2002).]
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I just received e-mail from the dealer who took the two 4473s from me as follows:"Hello, your copy will be in the mail on Monday to you. I will mark it void berfore I send it."I'm glad you guys are here to bounce things off of. Again, I compliment you all on the quality of your remarks on this board.
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
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  • Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Good for you!I'm glad he was cooperative!
    Stand And Be Counted
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yes, he told me it has been his common practice, at least up until now. I hope he will stop now that the drawbacks of the practice have been made clear, but all I know for sure is that he is sending my extra form back to me because of my personal concern.Frankly, the less documentation the better regarding our exercising our Second Amendment rights, and as far as I'm concerned going to the trouble of making extra copies serve no one's best interest but ATF's. A fire is an act of God, and I wouldn't be all that upset if you had to turn in documentation of your burned up business rather than a bunch of our 4473s. But that's just my hopefully needless concern that they'll someday be misused peeking through. In theory, the law abiding citizen has nothing to worry about in documentation, but in reality I can't help having some concern about those documents falling into "the wrong hands" (i.e., an administration inclined toward confiscation and the criminalization of a whole class of previously innocent Americans). Let's not forget that the Brady Bunch would be delighted to document ammunition purchases as well, supposedly also in the law abiding citizens' best interest.
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
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  • S&W ManS&W Man Member Posts: 208 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Offeror - What part of the Hoosier state is this guy in? I haven't run across anyone doing that type of stuff up here in this area of the state. In fact a dealer in S.Bend taught me the trick of marking thru the unused description lines.
    The second admendment GUARANTEES the other nine and the Constitution!
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm in Fort Wayne, he was in another town in the outlying area. I don't want to be too specific as I'm really not out to make somebody's life miserable who may not deserve it.
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