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Arms for the Unthinkable

madminutemadminute Member Posts: 68 ✭✭
edited January 2002 in General Discussion
So to all engaged in our constitutional debates, the path is clear. Just stock in your cache of weapons bought through private owners, unregistered, and a few cases of ammo for each, and leave em alone for the day they might be needed. Buy your registered guns as your regular shooters, but keep your back ups a secret. Me, I'm ready to hit the bush. One good lightweight assault rifle, one good solid autopistol, and one good pump 12g....what more could you need? Any ideas?
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  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A 22LR conversion kit for the AR. Sometimes you can't afford a whole lotta noise.
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hmmm...is this an end-of-days scenario? I agree with the idea of having a .22LR conversion kit. It's good to have that caliber for small game like rabbit and squirrel.
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  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I've got an Charter Arms AR-7. Remember those? Everything fits in the stock. Barrel,semi-auto gun and magazine. Plus it floats when its put together or not. http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~rlai/tssi/ar7.htm
    Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself![This message has been edited by RugerNiner (edited 01-21-2002).][This message has been edited by RugerNiner (edited 01-21-2002).]
    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
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  • madminutemadminute Member Posts: 68 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    oh YEECCHHH! I had two Charter Arms AR-7s, and they were junk. I gave em away. One actually had a curve in the barrel! Not on the outside, but the steel-sleeve running through the aluminum barrel had a curve to it! THAT'S not the gun I'd like rely on to bring home dinner with....I found even a good one pretty bad at 50 yards....If I had to choose a 22lr, it would be a dirt simple bolt action of a good manufacturer like Remington. I had a 1932 Springfield that would light a match at 50 yds......But yes, 22lr survival gun, good idea..
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  • bhayes420bhayes420 Member Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    How are the AR-7's since Henry took over the manufacture? I don't *really* need one, but they look cool, and hey, it's another gun!
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  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The only problem with my AR-7 is that it sometimes shoots two rounds at a time.Mine is made by Charter Arms.The good thing about it is it fits in a backback and floats.
    Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself![This message has been edited by RugerNiner (edited 01-22-2002).]
    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
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  • axlerfanaxlerfan Member Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ive got a newer one made by henry...is better than the one i had years back by charter arms. mines got an all steel barrel, no liner, shoots decently. its not a tack driver, but for plinking and small game its good enough.
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  • JustCJustC Member Posts: 16,056 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well, if it is the end-of-days, I am taking all the guns with me. Who is going to come get them? If TSHTF, then there are no rules any more. This means no law enforcement coming to your house to get the registered guns. If it is a scenario of the confiscation of weapons by some panty waist liberals, then they better be prepared to duck-and-cover. They can have the registered guns when the ammo is all gone.
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    At Ruby Ridge they didn't know why the family in the house was acting the way they were until they found a body at the back of the house and "realized" they'd killed someone. Then their sniper accidentally (and I believe it was a screw-up, why not?) shot Weaver's wife while holding her baby. With that kind of history, what would a rational gun owner do if faced with government "in force" on his doorstep? Katie, bar the door and let 'em convince me first.
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  • mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Let's see......AR-15 w/.22 conversion kit. Dependable handgun(s). 12 ga. Lonnnggg range high power.Already got them. Any thing else?Mudge the Boy Scout
    I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS!
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I almost forgot. I was going to ask if somebody thinks the Papoose is any better a gun than some AR-7s.
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
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  • concealedG36concealedG36 Member Posts: 3,566 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Having enough firepower to stand your ground is important. But, I'm thinking that without a reliable source of food and water, power, heat and shelter you might want to bring some cyanide tablets with you. If the SHTF, small arms would be necessary mostly to protect elements of survival (see aformentioned list).
    Gun Control Disarms Victims, NOT Criminals
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  • madminutemadminute Member Posts: 68 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm not so sure I'm talking about the "doomsday" scenario....only because the reality of a full-on nuclear war or the "big meteor" is far more grim than we realize. I'm thinking more in line with scenarios which fall just short of the total SHTF themes. Looking back in a historical context, we could be living in what will one day be viewed as the start of World War 3, but I don't think we're looking at the full nuclear exchange we once were. No, I'm looking more toward a gradual collapse of civilization, a breakdown of social behavior brought about through economic stresses should the US economy fall, a slow meltdown into some post-modern tribal society more weird than any fictional "Road Warrior" movie....
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  • madminutemadminute Member Posts: 68 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    ANYWAY: everybody is on the 22lr bandwagon it seems, but there are some negatives. If you view the long-term. First, they're not reloadable. So when you run out, you're done until you can find that last deserted Wal-Mart which hasn't been looted. If you have reloading equipment and a big stock of supplies, you can go on longer with a centerfire....
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  • guns-n-painthorsesguns-n-painthorses Member Posts: 6,462 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
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  • simonbssimonbs Member Posts: 994 ✭
    edited November -1
    G & P,Do you do your own farrier work?
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  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think you ought to be more worried about suburban warfare than Holocost. Roaming gangs from the hood and small cells of terrorsts. This is why my rifle(Ruger PC-9) and gun (Ruger P-85) are both 9mm and take the same magazines. The AR-7 I've been talking about is for compactness and less noise.Mine is unbelievably accurate for what it is.A Mossburg Security-six 12 ga.with extended magazine and pistol grip would be extremly handy also.
    Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself![This message has been edited by RugerNiner (edited 01-22-2002).][This message has been edited by RugerNiner (edited 01-22-2002).]
    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
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  • edharoldedharold Member Posts: 465 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    For quiet work, a cross bow would be useful as would a Randle fighting knife.
    "They that would give up liberty to obtain safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"Benj. Franklin, 1759
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  • madminutemadminute Member Posts: 68 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I consider being half Cherokee a distinct advantage in my case.....There are now some interresting questions posed by the group concerning this scenario......if indeed the society we now live in were to collapse and degenerate rapidly into anarchy, which would be the wiser course of action indeed? To stay in the urban landscape in spite of the inevitable collapse of all infrastructure and support (water, power, heat, sewage, etc.) or beat it out to the swamps away from the crumbling concrete? There are points to both I think.....
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  • DENWADENWA Member Posts: 390 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Let's think.1. Economic colapse, Gov. fall, millitary take-over.2. Most folk flee the urban areas, as gangs and thugs quickly take over the streets. Riots looting ect...3. Rural area strong-holds become the target of hungary/thieves.4. Protection of family/food and water supplies become essential.List (minimum 5000 rnds of ammo for each weapon)A) shotguns 12 ga, pistols 9mm (rugers cause they don't jam like glocks, and more expensive guns)B) rifles 308 tactical 223Ar-15, 22lr BOLT action (Optional turk mausers 8mm because they are cheap and so is ammo. good for hunting)C) Claymores and trip wire to protect the perimitter from idiots D) 4 pair of roving dogs 3 males 5 females(dobermans/shepards/Rots or even labs)4 Horses and lots of pigs You can always breed and eat them if times get tuff.E) M-67 grenades for the slim chance your family becomes over run.F) reloading supplies for the LONG haul. I'll Dream up some more crazy stuff later.
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    How about creative manners in which to case said items inconspicuously? I have a locking airline case for a golf bag lined with foam and covered in golf stickers. All "essentials" for these types of scenarios would fit in there. Actually, I was once able to fit all of my guns in there and it made for an excellent travel case.Dogs? I wouldn't mind a few Belgian Malenois. They are more intelligent than pit bulls, rottweillers, and dobermans and they bite harder than German Shepherds.[This message has been edited by idsman75 (edited 01-22-2002).][This message has been edited by idsman75 (edited 01-22-2002).]
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  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Look how far society has degenerated in the past thirty years. We can't depend on the Government(Police or Military) to be there when we need them. We need to be prepared for the further increase in crime.That's all I'm saying.
    Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
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  • dhdh Member Posts: 127 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I occasionally look at a magazine called "DELTA FORCE" and they sell lots of books on different subjects in there,like survival equipment to have,hiding out in the city and rural areas,weapons of choice and lots of good stuff,though I've never ordered any of them.I agree with RugerNiner,the most realistic danger would be the hoodlums in the streets and if you live in the city and enough thugs want your stash then there is nothing going to stop them no matter what you have in your arsenal,you still have to sleep,stay under cover,and most importantly,protect your family.I say head for the hills and find a small band of folks like yourself.
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  • thesupermonkeythesupermonkey Member Posts: 3,905 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    All you really need...1. Magnesium Blocks with Flint Rods.2. Solid Sturdy Knife.3. 22 Rifle and Several Thousand Rounds.
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  • simonbssimonbs Member Posts: 994 ✭
    edited November -1
    Munkey the Woodsmaster.
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  • 218Beekeep218Beekeep Member Posts: 3,033
    edited November -1
    My defense package,if I left home,and I don`t see it hapnin`,would include a 9 shot 22 revolver,Auto Loading 22 Rifle,and my 20 guage 37 Ithica DeerSlayer..ammo is lighter than 12 guage,so I could take more!I`d have a variety of 20 guage shells,Slugs,Bird-shot,and Buck-shot.I might throw one of my Savage-24s in the Jeep,maybe the scoped 222/20Guage.So all together,I`d have about 10 bricks of 22 Long Rifle ammo,and several cases of 20 guage shells.I don`t see myself reloadeng in the woods. I was just thinkin`..what would you do with all your guns and stuff that you did not take to the woods? I wonder what I would do with my bees .218
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  • guns-n-painthorsesguns-n-painthorses Member Posts: 6,462 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    SimonYes, I can do my own trimming and some real basic shoe work, but only in emergencys. I prefer to just sign a check for thirteen trims.
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would locke em up in my golf-club case and chain that to the tie-down hook under my tonneu cover which will soon be a locking truck cap.
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    There is an element of humor to all this because there are some scenarios where none of this is going to help a bit, as I think we all sense. On the other hand, we have seen natural disasters as well as riots wherein some of this might be useful... I think if you're a liberal you're reading these posts and thinking how preposterous it would be in some set of circumstances you've dreamed up, while those of us for whom this exercise has any meaning can think of circumstances where we'll wind up having to save YOUR bacon.Personally, I don't see myself holding off the armed forces a la RED DAWN, certainly not the U.S. armed forces. In the first place I'm too old to hit the forest and no longer have the stamina for getting out there and trying to survive in the weather. Nevertheless, we've seen store owners hold off a mob during the L.A. riots, we've seen people protect their property after a hurricane. For the most part people are helpful to one another, but there are cases of criminal activity and just plain greedy looting. I think the most likely scenario (other than the 10-second exchange of fire during a mugging, burglary, or robbery) is the civil strife thing and the need to protect one's domicile for an extended period while the infrastructure is re-organized. In that scenario, you stay home, make sure you have enough basic supplies (including ammo for your guns in case of a violent assault by trespassers with mayhem in mind), and hold on. Sometimes a few shots in the air will have people moving on to find an easier target to pillage. If I had to be on the move and leave a home that was no longer secure, I'd take what was reasonable to carry and, assuming there will be cars parked, jammed, abandoned and basically strewn everywhere, I'd lock the bigger stuff in the trunk of mine, assuming it would be fairly long odds that someone would pick my car out of all the rest to burgle, at least for a while. The main thing is, if it gets dangerous out there, or you're in for a sustained effort, that's when the idea that all I need is five rounds and 3 seconds goes out the window. In the L.A. riots there were roving gangs as well as a mob of opportunists looking for loot. I would not like to be the guy getting kicked in the head while the news chopper covers the whole thing from overhead, and I would not like to be the guy who watches helplessly while his neighbors trample in and out of his house or store with his inventory.Not that I couldn't snap back afterward anyway. All I really need in life is a chance to start again. If it all burned down tonight, I'd be there with a can-do attitude tomorrow morning.
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  • cbxjeffcbxjeff Member Posts: 17,599 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    offeror, I have a Papoose and think for the price, it's a bargin. No, I'm not going to outshoot a match rifle, but I'm not that good of a shot anymore anyway. One thing though, is that it does not store in the stock. You get a nice takedown case with it that is about 24" long. Jeff
    cbxjeffIt's too late for me, save yourself.
    It's too late for me, save yourself.
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  • beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    My vote is that Supermonkey and 218Beekeep have come closest to reality. I mean I love my Match grade "reach out and touch someone from afar" 7.62 NATO rifles and my "blast them when they are taking a dump" at 1000 yards .338; BUT 5000 rounds of 7.62 NATO weighs nearly 370 pounds. Now I know that all of us "really tough cyber commandos" here at GB can carry that much weight as we are carrying our six really favorite weapons that we can't live without, plus enough food to feed the family, plus essential reloading supplies, plus the eleven most essential survival books, plus enough toilet paper for the family's wiping needs, plus...you get the picture.I'm starting to think that I'm going to have to sell my Anschutz Match .22 and replace it with the practical Ruger10/22 that all of you seem to be in love with. I mean who needs a rifle that will pound a tack flat when you can have a rifle that will bend the tack and still have several rounds in the mag to bend some other tacks? 218...I've always felt that the Savage 24V was one of the most versatile weapons ever produced. Your choice of caliber/gauge would indeed cover a wide spectrum of required shots.I think the rest of my guns would be buried somewhere so that I could come back for them if future circumstances presented themselves. BeachP.S. Maybe I'd take a metal detector so I could dig up everybody else's weapons!![This message has been edited by beachmaster73 (edited 01-23-2002).]
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  • thesupermonkeythesupermonkey Member Posts: 3,905 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Saxon,How reliable is your Ar? I bought some cheap mags that don't feed for K-rap, they feel like plastic?! My buddy says the oralites work pretty good so I'm gonna try them out. If that doesn't help, I'm just gonna go back to GI mags. What about a good SAR? Devastating rounds, cheap ammunition, and unequaled reliablility. When all else fails, break out the Belt Fed m60.
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  • 218Beekeep218Beekeep Member Posts: 3,033
    edited November -1
    Yeah,beach,I`d go for burrying the guns and valuables that I couldn`t take.I`d have to come up with a way to keep rust off of them...better look into it,huh?Does anyone really think a bunch of street thugs with "Nines" will have the gear we have?I like what dh said about"find a small band of folks like yoursesf",some of us have neigbors who are just that...some of us don`t.My neigbors in West Virginia are the best,and that`s where I`d want to be..but the neigbors here in Flarda are mostly the urban notherners,who are not into guns like the rural nothern folks are.Oddly enough,in my general area, they are mostly republicans..so when it really starts getting bad..who knows,maybe they will start comming around and trade in their golf clubs for shotguns..218
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  • thesupermonkeythesupermonkey Member Posts: 3,905 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I thought we were talking about surviving in the wilderness, not urban warfare. In that case give me that Remmington 700 with Shepard's Scope in 308, a few friends with good aim to hold my Ar and Aks, and short barreled 870's for the up close and personal.
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  • concealedG36concealedG36 Member Posts: 3,566 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    .218, I read somewhere that putting valuables inside PVC pipe with some dessicant and sealing the pipe before burying it works well. I haven't actually buried anything, probably because my life is so busy I'd probably move and forget about it. Just my $0.01.
    Gun Control Disarms Victims, NOT Criminals
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  • 218Beekeep218Beekeep Member Posts: 3,033
    edited November -1
    In a perfect world,the only reason for gangs to exist,would be so they could feel safe from us..218
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  • Gordian BladeGordian Blade Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Is this just a bunch of OTH middle-aged guys (I'm one) talking tough, or is this serious? A bit of both? I've been stewing over these kinds of thoughts for a while, but it's gotten into high gear for me (and Mrs. Blade) since 9/11. There are three issues here, related but different: (1) the government going after you for various things they shouldn't go after people for, (2) a permanent (over one month) break-down in civil order, and (3) a temporary break-down in civil order. I don't think there is much defense against (1) except non-violent civil disobedience. Based on history, I believe (3) is far more likely to be experienced by an average person, at least in the near future.In case of temporary looting or rioting, I think it's much better military strategy to defend a strong point (your house) against oncoming barbarians (looters or rioters). You have your stockpile of food, water, weapons, ammunition, etc. You have cover and concealment. You have a place where family, friends, and neighbors can come for mutual protection.If it's a long-term civil breakdown, then I think most of us are going to survive (if at all) by bartering what we have/know/do with other people, not by living off the land in a remote wilderness. I think keeping your home base is important for that, also. By the way, what is one of the best barter goods? Everybody reading this knows the answer. (But you have to be careful who you barter with.)
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  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If someone would develop a light weight, removable 20 gauge barrelled action to nest under the AR15 in the manner of the 40mm but with a link to the AR trigger, this unit plus the 22LR conversion unit might cover all the bases for a survival weapon system.Not needing a space consuming mechanical firing mechanism,the new electric primers open up possibilities for a lightweight compact shotgun receiver ETC.
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bury the PVC pipe vertically. Bury small piles of small nails all over the place. Confuses the metal detectors.
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  • cbxjeffcbxjeff Member Posts: 17,599 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    v35, You have that right. I've been working with a frind of mine from FL on unconventional weapons using that etronix system. That gives me so much more freedom in the mechanical design. Stay tuned!Jeff
    cbxjeffIt's too late for me, save yourself.
    It's too late for me, save yourself.
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