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handgun rounds for self defense

jastrjastr Member Posts: 463 ✭✭✭
edited April 2002 in General Discussion
I recently read an article declaring the top five rounds for self defense with a handgun...went something like this1) 40 cal fed hydrashock jhp2) 357 mag fed hydrashock jhp3) 40 cal corbon jhp4) 45 cal fed hydra shok jhp5) 9mm +p+ fed hydrashock jhp i cant believe that the 44mag wasnt included! Honerable mention too the 357 sig..
Id like too see the man who survives the break in attempt on my house 12guage sluger
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  • jastrjastr Member Posts: 463 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    boy iguess nobody is familiar with this topic??
    lets all be responsible! shoot a criminal!
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  • beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm a dinosaur and still believe in 230 grain hollowpoints from my 1911 Colt. But I'll bet a lot of LEO's have some opinion on this one. Beach
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  • jastrjastr Member Posts: 463 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I like the 45 rnd... but i dont feel like it has the reach out and touch someone capabilities....
    lets all be responsible! shoot a criminal!
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  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Funny you never hear winchester silvertips mentioned as a good selfdefense round. They work good and are cheaper than Fed Prem HS.
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  • mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Both our .45's are loaded with Hydra-Shoks.Shouldn't really need to "reach out and touch someone" in home defense. Unless you've got a REALLY big house. As we all have been told, most confrontations occur within 20 feet..44 magnum with Hydra-Shoks? Now THAT'S a bit of overkill. Mudge the defender
    I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS!
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  • LowriderLowrider Member Posts: 6,587
    edited November -1
    The 185 gr. or 200 gr. .45 cal. +P Hydroshock is a bad-* round. Around 1150 fps and close to 500 ft.lbs. Right up there with .357 ballistics.
    Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.
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  • badboybobbadboybob Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The 9mm RBCD at 2010fps and 539fpe will outperform a .45 Hydra Shock. Check 'em out at www.rbcd.net.
    PC=BS[This message has been edited by badboybob (edited 02-15-2002).]
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    It's funny, but when I show one of my handguns to a non-gun-enthusiast I still get that "ooh, hollowpoints!" reaction as if there's something nasty about them. It's been a long time since anybody in the industry pushed roundnose for any caliber under .45 except for practice.Actual shooting data always takes time to collect because incidents occur infrequently. If the .40 is passing the .357 it's probably because so much of law enforcement has gone away from revolvers to semi-autos with that round. I have yet to see any statistics such as you quote, but this doesn't surprise me. If enough cops go to .357 Sig it could shift that way too. Right now the .40 is probably winning on volume of fire. HydraShok is a favorite of mine, a premium round within accepted velocity range and a reliable expander. I also like CorBon, but realize that it's extra velocity works against it for standard issue in some PDs. 20 years ago everybody was talking about Silvertips and Nyclad, particularly for the 9mm. The Seecamp .32 was designed to shoot ONLY Silvertips, in the assumption that that was the best available law enforcement backup gun round. For a while the Glaser Safety Slugs and the MagSafes got a lot of press for smaller calibers like .32 and .380. I assume they're still one good choice, but wonder how a jury would react to the description of the widespread wounding.I don't shoot 9mm any more. I like something a little bigger. I now shoot .40 in the HydraShok as well as CorBon. I'm hearing more good things about the faster 135 gr. bullets now than I am about the slower 180's, but I still load some 180's and 165's for defense because the heavier bullet was one reason I moved up to the .40. There is something comforting about the .45 ACP, so I now have two of those, and load both HydraShok and CorBon as well. CorBon gets a slight edge in the winter months when everyone's in heavy coats. I like cheaper factory loads for practice, like Blazer or USA, and I shoot some of my defense ammo as well to familiarize with performance and check function and groups. Oh yes, I still have a box of Lawman CCI "ashtrays" in the .45 but I'm not sure I like the thought of loading it for defense in any gun without a clear history of reliable feeding.There does seem to be some sort of law of diminishing returns beyond the .357 magnum, and the .44 magnum has been rated lower performing in terms of actual shootings. It's been a while since I read anything about that so I couldn't quote the data for it. Another statistic I find interesting is that even trained policemen miss 75% of the time during actual firefights. Which is one rationale for higher-cap guns.
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."[This message has been edited by offeror (edited 02-13-2002).]
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  • jastrjastr Member Posts: 463 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You know... I have spoken too quite a few leo's , and they tell me (That if there is a shootout...) the first thing that they will go for is there shotgun, or there assault rifle........ todays cop is not your super barnaby jones w/ his 38snub nose sniper revolver
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  • IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    BLACK TALONS, BLACK TALONS!!!! Right, Saxon? [This message has been edited by Iconoclast (edited 02-13-2002).]
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  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    In my Ruger P-85 9MM...........Black Talons Ruger SP101 357Mag.......Hydra Shoks Mossberg 500 12Ga........No.4 BuckshotThese Rounds are for Personal Defense.I'm stock piling 9MM 115gr. SilverTips for the Unexpected.My next Gun will be a Ruger PC-9SS.I'm also stockpiling 15 and 30 round mags that fit both my P-85 and the PC-9SS.At home the Shotgun is loaded with birdshot.
    Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself![This message has been edited by RugerNiner (edited 02-13-2002).]
    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
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  • SUBMARINERSUBMARINER Member Posts: 1,362 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    NUMBERS ASIDE,THE CORBON 135GR JHP .40S&W HAS THE HIGHEST ONE SHOT STOP RATING OF ANY ROUND.THIS IS WHAT I CARRY IN MY SIG.IN MY WIFES 9MM WE HAVE 124GR FED HYD SHOKS
    SUBMARINE SAILOR,TRUCK DRIVER,NE'ER DO WELL, INSTIGATOR,AND RUSTY WALLACE FAN
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  • competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,696 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    jastr,How were the "top five rounds for self-defense" determined to be "top"?Was is it tests in ballistic gelatin? Statistics from actual shootings? Sales numbers? Survey results?
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  • smokepolesmokepole Member Posts: 34 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Anything hand held is unreliable. You fellows can have your .45's and 9mm's, but I'm grabbing my 12 gauge with the high brass stuff. You want to talk about laying a whupping on somebody, you talk about that.
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  • jastrjastr Member Posts: 463 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The article that I read ... said that the tests were done in ballistic gelitin, and insurveys of one shot stops through law enforcement..... I think it showed the 40 cal as something like 98% 1 shot stops
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  • TxsTxs Member Posts: 17,809 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The most important thing about any handgun round-You must be able to hit with it. Because power is not it's strong point, good hits are vital. One of the FBI Miami shootout "suspects" took 12 rds before going down, mostly due to poor hits. 11 were a mix of .38 Spl+P/9mm's and one was from 00buck (4 pellets worth). The other bad guy was out of the fight after the second of 6 hits-a .38+P to the temple. Also note the Feds fired close to 80 rds. that day.I remember hearing the story about a Miami PD officer back in the mid 1980's who had a coke cowboy empty a MAC10 at him from something like 75-80 yds. The officer returned fire with one round from his .38 Spl. revolver and ended the problem.I agree with smokepole, a shotgun is the best way to go. I consider a handgun as being for use in emergencies-where you don't have time to grab the shotgun. Great first round hit probability, even under the worst of conditions. It's the poor man's submachine gun.
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  • Gordian BladeGordian Blade Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    OK, Txs, I hear you. Now, do you recommend a regular stock or a pistol grip for a house defense shotgun? I've got both, but obviously you can't change it when you need the shotgun in a hurry.
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  • jastrjastr Member Posts: 463 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Depending on the size of the shotgun load you are going too use should determin which stock should be used... If you are only using bird shot.. pistol grip can offer more versatility for home defense. If your going too use a heavy load that pistol grip might just snap your wrist
    lets all be responsible! shoot a criminal!
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  • Gordian BladeGordian Blade Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm using bird shot. Somebody told me that using a pistol grip would tend to make the shots go high. Maybe more practice is the answer to that?
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  • UnclePatUnclePat Member Posts: 77 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hmmmmm. Nobody ever wants to stand in front of my 9mm Rem. 147gr. Brass Jacketed HP, so I guess it must be a pretty good self defense round!
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The initial post said the "top 5 rounds for defense with a handgun," but if we want to talk shotgus, fine. I just can't get mine into my carry holsters, so for my concealed carry permit I'll continue to use handguns most of the time when I'm on the go, thanks. As far as shotgun defense rounds are concerned, I put pistol grips on both the front and rear of my 870 SP some time ago, and have been to the range, where I have fired, two-handed with great success, 00, #1, birdshot #8, and even slugs. Divided between both hands, the recoil of a heavy shotgun load is quite handleable and there is no significant difficulty shooting until empty, if necessary. I have the extender on my 870 and I think it holds six 2-3/4"s. I keep it handy in the house. Used to be in the car but I'd prefer a stainless in that role due to our climate. I noticed tiny rust spots developing, so cleaned the gun well & brought it back in the house. For now, my M1 Carbine seems to hold up well in the trunk, cased. I use softnose in that one.
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
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  • bikrprchrbikrprchr Member Posts: 217 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    How bout them Remington Golden Sabres? I have always been a HydraShok fan, but the Golden Sabre looks like a winner, especially the stuff loaded to Government Specifications.
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  • tidemantideman Member Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Y'all need to check out www.rbcd.com Badboybob and I are converted users. This is a new ammo mfg. in San Antonio, Texas. This stuff is the most powerful, fastest and deadliest handgun ammo in the world. It's available for all popular calibers, the recoil is suprisingly light, yet the destructive capabilities of this round [no matter what caliber] are awesome. I carry it in all my personal defense handguns. I don't believe in stopping power. I only believe in destroying power. If you carry a weapon for personal defense, carry the best ammo.Tideman
    "Don't shoot to stop 'em, Shoot to Destroy 'em!"
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  • SXSMANSXSMAN Member Posts: 2,616 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    bikrprchr,I was scrolling down to see if they were mentioned.That is what resides in my 686 home defence gun.Wicked little buzzsaw.Not sure if FBI still uses them.
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  • SXSMANSXSMAN Member Posts: 2,616 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Tideman,is that the correct link?If so help me on the menu.
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  • Master7thSonMaster7thSon Member Posts: 229 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    tideman
    i'm always looking for new ANd better destructive ammo
    went to the site you listed above but cant fynd the ammo
    can you help us?
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  • badboybobbadboybob Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It's www.rbcd.net
    PC=BS
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  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    Has anyone said anything about .50AE yet?.50AE hollowpoints....I shudder to think what sort of damage that would do. Probably an exit wound the size of a basketball.
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  • SXSMANSXSMAN Member Posts: 2,616 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Darn it!Missed the ammo by 20.Bullzeye,you didn't take my ammo did ya?Thanks for the link BBBob.
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Interestingly enough, after a self defense shooting the prosecutor will often drag the shooter into court, and in those cases he will ask things like "Was this really self defense?", "Was the shooter in fear of his or her life?" "Was the response justifiable?" "Was the shot made purposefully, to stop an attack, or did the gun discharge accidentally?" "Was force used to try to kill rather than to stop?" "Was the gun and ammo legal?" and so on.A defensive shooter's case is tougher to win when he is perceived as over-enthusiastic or out to kill rather than stop. It may not be macho, but the correct answers are: It was NOT an accidental discharge (that's possible manslaughter), I WAS in fear of my life or my family's, I shot to stop the attack -- I even dialed for an ambulance immediately afterward." Also, unpopular ammo is not the best idea, particularly when the prosecutor can show the jury a close-up of an expanded round of no-longer-sold Black Talon and ask them if this was really necessary to stop an attack or was it designed to inflict maximum damage and killing power. One reason I put a New York trigger on my Glocks is so that I'll be using the same trigger many cops use to reduce the possibility of accidents. It just could make life easier someday when proving that a self defense shooting was purposeful and not accidental. That's also why I'll practice with the cheap stuff, but when I load my defensive guns for carry I do so with quality store-bought, proven-effective ammo like HydraShok and CorBon. I even recall that there was some concern when the first Para Ordnance guns came out that citizens might have trouble if they got into court and the prosecutor tried to emphasize the "para-military" ring to the name. That's no longer viewed as a problem, I assume, though there are still a few guns out there that I wouldn't buy simply because of the ill-advised model name emblazoned on the side. I don't want something like The Annihilator as "Exhibit A" in my private citizen's defensive shooting trial. Might give them the wrong idea. But hey, that's just me.... :>)
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
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  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Offeror;I totally agree with you, but I will still carry my Black Talons because cops shoot to kill not maim. Even when a man is weilding a knife, a cop (as standard procedure)is going to shoot to kill so why shouldn't I? I do agree with you about being scruntinized for my choice of ammo if I ever have to use it.
    Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
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  • RUGERNUT3RUGERNUT3 Member Posts: 247 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I like black Talons, have sveral boxes in .45but they stay tucked away. Three(for now)carry guns(no,not at the same time)! Not that paranoid...yet. Two .45's and a .40., I leave the house with one extra mag though it is prob. not neccessary, just too many movies I guess. I always stagger my "in the gun" mag between Hydro's,Glazer Blue and FMJ's..my extra mag will sometimes be all Hydro's..as I said "sometimes"...other times I will add a couple of FMJ's to mix, have know idea why I change the mix.The FMJ's are there for penetration,a car door, wall,heavy clothing,..as any of these bearers do major bad things to "ideal" exspansion of ANY type,ANY brand of hollowpoint..once you fill the "cup" of a hollowpoint with any material,clothing too, the proper exspansion of said bullet does not happen = me maybe getting killed...would ruin my day completely.....Corbon is excellant also, sometimes carry these, as I shoot through and buy new ammo every couple of months.
    "ANY" EXCUSE IS A GOOD REASON TO BUY "JUST 1 MORE".& VICIE-VERSIE!
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  • Hans GrueberHans Grueber Member Posts: 244 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    In my handguns I use depleated uranium, for that extra penetration.[This message has been edited by Hans Grueber (edited 02-15-2002).]
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  • jastrjastr Member Posts: 463 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    In my 9mm i have been using fed +p+ jhp or just a standard hydrashok... in my 357 sig just any jhp, in my 357 mag , the hydrashok
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  • TxsTxs Member Posts: 17,809 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Gordian Blade-For most situations a full length stock is preferable on a shotgun, to take full advantage of the high first round hit probability.When being used strictly indoors, where mobility is important, a pistol grip can be very handy. Any load from birdshot to slugs can be fired wit no problem with a pistol gripped shotgun. Just remember to keep your wrist locked at the same angle you use when firing a handgun. I'm average sized and have fired lots of buckshot and slugs through pistol gripped riot guns with no problems.Keep the firing hand anchored tightly against the side of your chest, just below your nip, when firing. Your forearm should be parallel with the ground. Angle the gun across your body about 45degrees and put your weight on your forward foot. If you find you're shooting high or low, move your fore-end hand backward or forward to raise/lower the muzzle. Windage is adjusted by rotating your body at the hips.If you try to fire a pistol gripped shotgun by holding it out in front of you unanchored you'll have a different point of impact every time the gun comes up. You need to bring the rear of the gun to a predetermined index point on your body in order for your muzzle position to be repeatable.
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ruger --You may find upon further research that cops don't shoot to kill either. They shoot to stop. They also call an ambulance immediately thereafter. We're supposed to do the same thing, generally. Even snipers shoot to "turn off" the threat, not necessarily to kill. Why shouldn't you? Because defending oneself does not necessarily require fatal injury, even with a gun. We're taught to shoot for the chest first for the best odds of stopping, but we still should dial 911 and if it comes to an inquiry, I would tell the truth, which is that I shot to stop the assault, not "hoping" to kill. If you swear under oath that you wanted to kill a guy, it will be easy for the other side's lawyer to accuse you of excess. If you shoot again once the guy has stopped the attack, you are even more likely to pay a penalty for it. That's just the way the legal system tends to work in many areas of the country. In Indiana, I believe we have the right to defend property to a certain degree. In some states, there is no justification for shooting unless lives are at stake; protection of property is not a sufficient cause to fire. So there are differences depending on where you live. But claiming to shoot to "destroy" is placing foot (a) in mouth (b).
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
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  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I based my "shoot to kill" on a TV program as to why they shot a man 25 feet away who was not running just standing still in what was called a threatening manner. They said it was standard procedure to shoot to kill instead of shooting him in the leg to stop him. Of course this wouldn't be the first time I've been misinformed by TV. In PA you can not use a gun to protect property, in FL you can. In your house always. Thats why if you shoot somebody in your threshold, drag them inside.
    Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    In my experience, cops shoot to neutralize a situation. The best way to do that is to shoot em center-of-mass. A sensible cop won't shoot in the leg or the arm because there is a greater chance of missing the target and wounding an innocent bystander from the ricochet. I would bet my next paycheck that any cop on the stand after a deadly-force encounter will testify that he shot because he sensed imminent danger and that his intentions were to neutralize the situation. If a cop shot "to kill" then he would be aiming for the T-zone. Not many cops (other than snipers) train primarily to take headshots. The T-zone is the only place you should aim if your true objective is to kill someone. If the cop feels justified at the time in question, then I am sure he hopes the perpetrator dies quickly from the wound. A wounded animal will fight a lot harder to get out of a tight situation than a dead animal.
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  • RUGERNUT3RUGERNUT3 Member Posts: 247 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    RUGERNINER..."in the house" in Texas...means "in the house"..."threshold,then pulling in"= PRISON in Texas, precedent cases on books..just a thought......
    "ANY" EXCUSE IS A GOOD REASON TO BUY "JUST 1 MORE".& VICIE-VERSIE!
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  • RUGERNUT3RUGERNUT3 Member Posts: 247 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    RUGERNINER; In Texas, "in the house"= in thehouse. In Texas "shoot em on the threshold and pull them in" =PRISON...precedent caseson the books..just a thought...
    "ANY" EXCUSE IS A GOOD REASON TO BUY "JUST 1 MORE".& VICIE-VERSIE!
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