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Calling ADMIN. Legal assistance?

competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,696 ✭✭✭
edited April 2002 in General Discussion
Admin.

I just wanted to relate this to you; if it represents anything happening widespread, Gunbroker.com might be having difficulties.

I'm not an FFL; I had offered to sell my Marlin Camp-45 to someone who posted on the WTB forum; he's an FFL.

He told me that his local ATF office is telling him he can ONLY receive firearms from out-ot-State if they are shipped to him from an FFL. (I only have his statements for that; maybe he's misunderstanding what they are telling him.)

This is contrary to the info. you have on the auction site "For Sellers" (which quotes ATF rules) and I directed him to it for review, but I was thinking: If there are ATF agents who are "hassling" FFL's about private individuals sending firearms to them--it could affect your business.

This guy wanted me to pick up the extra expense of first transferring the rifle to an FFL, then having the FFL ship it to him; I didn't want the expense so no deal.

I'm thinking of putting a few of my personal firearms in the auction, but if the receiving FFL dealers are being told by the ATF that I can't ship to them; it will make sales more difficult/costly.

Do you have anything, like an attorney interested in "setting the ATF straight" on this issue if it arises for a seller/buyer using Gunbroker.com?
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Comments

  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    It's possible the rules are different for handguns and long guns, but certainly for handguns I am under the clear understanding it is from FFL to FFL (unless I'm sending my Glock back to the factory for repair, apparently).

    -- Life NRA Member
    "If dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
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  • He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 51,593 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Rather than post it here, you need to e-mail this information to Admin.
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  • PelicanPelican Member Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is what you get into. A dealer is responsible to KNOW who he is purchasing from. An individual could write anyone's name on a receipt. I receive quite a few guns for folks and I prefer (and am thinking about requiring) they come thru a dealer. I had a customer just last week wanted to receive a gun from an individual and said the individual would not go thru an ffl because they wanted to charge him too much. I told him the only way I would receive from an individual is if the person provided not only a bill of sale but also a photo copy of a valid ID showing name, address, dateof birth, and picture and have that photocopy signed off on and sealed by a Notary Public.

    I know, I'm asking an awful lot, but hey, it's my license at stake and I need it to make a living (otherwise I wouldn't have one).


    The Almighty Himself Entrusted the Future of All Living Creatures to a Wooden Boat.- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -"Audemus jura nostra defendere"

    Edited by - pelican on 04/22/2002 18:04:49
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  • gskyhawkgskyhawk Member Posts: 4,773
    edited November -1
    I'm not a FFL holder and I've never had any problems shipping a handgun or longgun to a FFL, just include my full name ,address and thats all they should need
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  • Guns & GlassGuns & Glass Member Posts: 864 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If the ATF person did state it as you listed, providing the FFL holder accurately explained it,.....then the ATF statement is wrong.
    It wouldn't be the first time, and it won't be the last.
    Unfortunately, deliberate statements are hard to prove w/o a witness.
    During compliance inspections I have had woefully wrong statements, and instructions made to me.
    Ie,. had some pre'68 22's, and a very rare Browning w/o s/n's. Was told to put some mark/number on them to identify them. Fed Regs forbid that. Asked to be shown where in the manual, and was smartly told I should know that, and where in the manual it was, so I should look it up.
    When he came back to finish, he didn't see any 'identifying marks', and when I told him it was illegal, he dropped it.
    Now, if I would have done it, I would have been written up.
    Some just don't care about a dealers business.

    Happy Bullet Holes!
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  • adminadmin Member, Administrator Posts: 1,079 admin
    edited November -1
    The info in our Firearm Shipping Guide is correct. Federal law requires that only the recipient must be an FFL. There is no difference between long guns and handguns. See:
    http://www.gunbroker.com/user/ShippingGuide.asp

    We have not heard any reports of the ATF hassling any dealer about unlicensed person to dealer transfers. Some licensed dealers assume that a licensed is required to ship a firearm and that assumption is incorrect. Others may be confused because the A/D book includes a column for the sender's FFL number which may be left blank if the item comes from an individual instead of another FFL.
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  • competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,696 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Offeror,

    http://www.gunbroker.com/user/ShippingGuide.asp


    Pelican,

    I understand what you're saying, but this guy was telling me it was a "legal requirement". (And I did offer to include a photo-copy of my SC Concealed Carry permit (a photo ID) and a copy (of the copy) of the ATF form from when I purchased the rifle.)
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  • PelicanPelican Member Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I see what yoou're saying and I know it is not a legal requirement. But, a dealer can establish his own standards as i have done. Some call it CYA.

    The Almighty Himself Entrusted the Future of All Living Creatures to a Wooden Boat.- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -"Audemus jura nostra defendere"
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  • gskyhawkgskyhawk Member Posts: 4,773
    edited November -1
    since we are on this subject, can someone answer this question? who all can use the yellow sheet? is it only FFL holders or can any one get a copy and use it ?
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  • adminadmin Member, Administrator Posts: 1,079 admin
    edited November -1
    Pelican: without question you can refuse service to anyone, and you can (and should) do whatever makes you feel comfortable with the transaction.

    Too often, however, we have heard complaints from customers similar to the one that begins this thread in which a dealer tells a customer that transfers are required by law to be FFL to FFL. If a dealer does not wish to do a transfer that is his right, but the dealer should not give incorrect information to the customer.
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  • PelicanPelican Member Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Heck no admin, I wouldn't tell 'em that it were against the law. That would be fibbin' and we don't fib. I jest tell 'em, if'n we gonna do it, we gonna do it my way!
    You know, kinda like I tells Mrs Pelican. Oops, she saw that

    The Almighty Himself Entrusted the Future of All Living Creatures to a Wooden Boat.- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -"Audemus jura nostra defendere"
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well, that's good news. I thought if I were to sell a gun on GB I would have to have an FFL ship it for me and pay them to do it.

    I'm not quite sure I understand what some of you are saying about "knowing" the individual. A gun in the mail is a gun in the mail, unless you think it's hot, I guess...

    If only you knew me well enough to ship ME guns without me getting an FFLer to handle it, then I could save some serious hassle (and money).

    -- Life NRA Member
    "If dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I guess I should add that if I DID sell a gun on GB and then got e-mail from the buyer stating that his FFLer had "requirements" for me other than shipping the darn thing to him, I would probably disqualify his win and go to the second high bidder. IF I happened to have a bill of sale I'd probably copy it for him, but only because I have a copier here at the house. As far as I'm concerned, it's the winner's problem to facilitate his end properly, not mine. He sends money, I send gun to FFL address.

    -- Life NRA Member
    "If dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
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