In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.

Gun business

offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
edited January 2002 in General Discussion
I'm a technical writer and management executive who was laid off when the **** hit the fan a little while back, and I'm sitting here in Fort Wayne, Indiana, thinking, "If I could help run a new business in this area, what would I enjoy starting up?" The first practical answer that came to mind was, bring a gun manufacturing operation to town. You see, Fort Wayne would be an ideal location for a gun-related business in that we have in the past heavily supported both the auto manufacturing industry and federal government contracts. Therefore, we have loads of engineers, loads of machine shops and plants from Tier 1 and Tier 2 on down. We have tool & die operations, assemblers, screw machine & multi-station CNC operations. We have one of the midwest's largest and most expert hard-coat anodizing plants, Fort Wayne Anodizing, here (they've done M-16 components and components of a Mars mission launch pad in the past). We also have one of this country's only major stockers of German polypropylene. We have Raytheon, formerly Magnavox, whose contracts have included weapons and military software.It would seem that if one wished to design and produce a new gun, change headquarters, or simply open a new plant to make or assemble any existing brand of gun, this town, in a gun friendly state where any non-felon can have a concealed carry permit simply by checking the box that says "for personal defense," would be a prime choice. And I might have a job I couldn't wait to get into each morning. Hmmmmm......
"The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
· Share on FacebookShare on Twitter

Comments

  • simonbssimonbs Member Posts: 994 ✭
    edited November -1
    Sounds good to me. Write up a business plan, approach some manufacturers, and take off. Good luck.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • RosieRosie Member Posts: 14,525 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Still working for the same company after 42 years. Started at the bottom and worked hard all the way up. You start the business and i will show you how to make it sing and i live just 40 miles north of you.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • robsgunsrobsguns Member Posts: 4,581 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'd hate to see you waste your time and money. I think about it and I cant think of very many gun companies that have been started in the last, oh 50 years, that have been successful, even Ruger is older than that. Taurus isnt that old, but they got their start by copying a gun and selling it cheaper. You either have to come up with a government contract, or a gun that is totally unique, and affordable, much as Bill Ruger did back in 49. If you're up to the task, go for it, if not, sleep on it.
    SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • 22WRF22WRF Member Posts: 3,385
    edited November -1
    Hey RosieSee you are up there in Amish country.I lived up there many years ago.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • JudgeColtJudgeColt Member Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I disagree that there are not many successful gun companies that have been started in the last 50 years. Ruger started in 1949 as I recall, so it is barely 50. H-K is much younger than 50. A little company called Glock started in the 1980s. Seecamp got started in the 1980s. My personal favorite is Kel-Tec, started in in the gun business in 1995.What it takes to start a successful new gun company is something special. The best way is to come up with something unique that fills a void in the market. Seecamp saw that tiny pistols could be made in very high quality in a chambering that had never been done before, and came up with the LWS 32, which was based on the LSW 25, itself an innovative design.The reason I think so highly of Kel-Tec is that, after the magazine limit law of 9-13-94, Mr. Kelgren designed a very small pistol in a powerful chambering holding the maximum of 10 rounds. Basing the magazine design on the Smith & Wesson M59 magazine so that the huge pool of pre-ban high capacity magazines was available to carry as spares was a major design feature. The clever design that allows the gun to be sold so inexpensively is also very important.There are lots of small gun companies, largely in the custom bolt action area, where the production numbers may number only in the hundreds. While the companies may be making money, and be considered successful in a limited sense, the standard has to be at least Kel-Tec for production numbers, and Glock if you are really successful.What all this means to me is that the important thing is NOT infrastructure for manufacturing, but rather a special design or idea that will sell. Production using modern computer-controlled milling machines and contract parts is secondary, assuming one has the capital to buy the manufacturing equipment. If polymers are used, which they probably will be in many new designs, the cost of the molds and injection equipment will be a major factor.First a brilliant design that will sell is needed, then the manufacturing comes next. Starting with the manufacturing end seems backward to me.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • timberbeasttimberbeast Member Posts: 1,738 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would imagine mass production would also involve the building of dies, which would be a major outlay in bucks. The machine tools would not have to be purchased, as there are many shops looking for work, however design and drafting would have to be done, as well as programming. Lots of "job shops" won't spend time writing programs for you, they are usually staffed by "button pushers", at least in this area. To get a decent price on steel, you will have to have some kind of a contract to keep a supply of decent material on hand. Given the proper equipment, CNC machining center, CNC lathe, CNC or Landis O.D. grinder, broach, and various "toolroom" type equipment, I am confident that I can build "A" gun. Mass production is a whole other game, though! Good luck, you got bigger cajones than I do if you accomplish it. Hope you do!
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • PelicanPelican Member Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hey Off, you must have tons of bucks at yer disposal. Want to go to Vegas and double it?
    "Audemus jura nostra defendere"- - - - - - - - - - - - -It is hard to make a comeback if you have never been on top.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • jonkjonk Member Posts: 10,121
    edited November -1
    Hi point (? The OH company who makes pistols and carbines with a lot of plastic) sure has done well- their table at gunshows is always packed. Their products aren't great for lookers but I have heard they are good, operable pieces, though not the most accurate.My advice: Start with something with mass appeal like a cheaper 9mm or .45; set up tables at gunshows and sell factory direct. Once established, add a higher quality line, perhaps introducing some guns in unproduced but common calibers; for instance, I would like to see a line of new hunting rifles in 8mm Mauser.
    "...hit your enemy in the belly, and kick him when he is down, and boil his prisoners in oil- if you take any- and torture his women and children. Then people will keep clear of you..." -Admiral of the Fleet Lord Fisher, speaking at the Hague Peace Conference in 1899.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • robsgunsrobsguns Member Posts: 4,581 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    No, stay away from unproduced rifles, they're unproduced for a reason, you know the gun industry goes to great expense to find out what will sell, if a caliber would sell, they'd make it. You need a niche to start out a business, like has been previously stated. It has to be different, revolutionary, exciting, not a fad. Look at Remingtons electronic gun. I dont see it flying, not for the long run, not unless they can develop a consumer base. One of the best things for an example is the inline muzzle loader, it took a while, but they put a new spin on muzzle loading and now everyone has a model available. Thats market niche, and consumer base, for the long haul, until they change the laws on their use in hunting. Titanium alloys are flashing in the pan right now, will it last, dunno? Seems to be floundering to me. Ruger should be leading the pack with this, but I havent seen them doing much with it. They have a huge amount of resources for it, but nothing coming out of them, they are one of the leading makers of titanium golf club heads you know, and have the engineering tech. The 3.5" chambered shotgun, thats made big inroads on sales, good concept for the bird hunters who like it.You want to know how to make some money? Start a company that can make really good hunting optics, at better prices than whats available currently. Make it as good as a Leupold, but cheaper. Make the scope with a built in range finder, like a handheld rangefinder, put it in a package that cost the same as a VariXIII, and to top it all off, make it night vision capable on demand. That puppy would sell and make a lot of money for you. It has to be comparable in weight though, not too heavy. I see something like this in combination with one of Remingtons electonic guns, since it already has a power source available, and working in tandem, the gun could be modified to power the scope, now that would make some people sit up and take notice of your scope and the Remington Co. gun. Oh if I had money. Remember where you heard this.
    SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • LowriderLowrider Member Posts: 6,587
    edited November -1
    Then you have the gun companies that seemed very successful and for reasons unknown (at least unknown to me) closed shop. Example: AMT. Very good reputation for their handguns, their guns were very well built...what happened?Bought out by Galena Industries, moved from Arcata, Ca. to Sturgis, SD. and just disappeared.
    Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Judge DreadJudge Dread Member Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sometimes it takes only a manufacturing blunder to get a court case and end bankrupt(defective gun exploding in someone face) or user negligence blamed to manufacturer deffect.It takes a lot of money and quite paper work to get a setup working.Need help? I am willing to share some ideas like .177/25 hi velocity autoloading rifle,silent class III .45 for military use ,and non-lethal guns for law,goverment and general public ,no money untill you are set up and going .... also i will love to see the first Stainless steel AIR Rifle in the world to be made in the USA for the general public...Sounds like daydreaming but sometimes dreams can come true if people pitch in a little.
    M=MC?/(T/T)
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • steve45steve45 Member Posts: 2,940 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Make sure that Indiana is a state with gun manufacturer protection laws in place.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    timber--It just so happens that SDI (Steel Dynamics Inc.) has its HQ a few miles up the road in Butler and is building a new plant right now NW of Fort Wayne -- I have already met one of the higher-ups on other marketing business and found these guys to be smart and helpful and looking to sell steel. So I might have an "in" there. We also have people who make dies here, lots of CAD/CAM, and I even have a cousin in the tool & die business. In general, we all know how we all felt about Kel-Tec and Hi-Point when they first came out. They looked and were priced like toys or Saturday night specials. To some degree I still feel that way about Hi-Point. I would say their aesthetic design left a lot to be desired, but they said the same thing about Glock at the beginning. All three of these, however, had popular pricing going for them. I'm thinking out loud here. I am happy to hear the supportive comments and would be interested to hear anything more all of you have to say. I am aware that the design is key, but my point is that the manufacturing resources are just SO good in this region, and the mix of technologies is right for a "medium-tech" product like guns. We have lots of engineers with mil-spec experience, too, because of the many years Magnavox and IT&T have been here serving the federal government. Another relevant bit of trivia -- I attended the local gun show today and bought one new gun -- a Millenium, in .45 caliber. Do you know it's almost identically sized as my Glock 27? The reviews of the PT-145 have been outstanding, as well. It feels great in the hand, shoots everything, and has a light-side trigger pull. And the dealer that sold it to me (brand new) made money on it, even though he only charged me $329. (Other stores sell them successfully at $399 to $439.)The wheels are still turning, ladies and gentlemen......
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • timberbeasttimberbeast Member Posts: 1,738 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hm.sounds like the steel might be coming from Hi-Alloy. Danged if it doesn't sound like you might have a shot, other things considered. If you job the machining out, you'll have to have fixtures built for the machining centers. Your design will dictate what machine makes each part of the finished product, i.e., let's say you're making a revolver. The cylinder could be made completely on a machining center, with a good program and expensive fixture, or it could be made on a turning center, fluting done with live tooling on the turret, with a minimal outlay of jig money, you'd just have to have jaws made, or maybe even use stock collet pads. I'd stay away from screw machines at start-up, because you could end up in a month with 50,000 barrel blanks off the screws, and 5,000 machined receivers, not a good thing, all machines should be figured to match the output of the slowest process, see "takt-time" in manufacturing lingo. Then you have to find a decent and reliable heat-treat operation which is consistent, sometimes a bad batch of heat-treat can scap the whole order! This interests me a lot, since I have thought about it at times, but I fear that I don't have the organizational skills to bring something of this sort together, plus, I have no idea of the government butt-kissing you'd have to do to get a serial number on a weapon. Liability also is a fear, if someone sticks a double charged reload in one of your products, will it stay together, and do or can you get enough liability to cover that? Not raining on your parade, just thinking about what I've already thought lots of times!! Never give up on a dream, though!!! I started my own business, did not do too well, but I never would have known if I wouldn't have tried! Go get 'em!!!!
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Homer J SimpsonHomer J Simpson Member Posts: 89 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    beast, you and I need to talk about this heat treated steel thingy.Off, more power to you! I'll add this, tho.. While guns are fun, making money is more fun. Find another catagory of product to lure into FW. Oh, lets say, something that you can get really rich while doing it! There is not much money in the gun business.(I live in NW Indiana, aka the arm-pit of America. But, there is one area in New Jersey that is just as ugly!)
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    One other point of data -- hard coat anodizing, at which our local company Fort Wayne Anodizing is the region's expert, makes aluminum virtually as hard as diamond, and they have new chemical pre-treatment process, MetaBrite, that makes the anodized parts attractive enough to go up against stainless steel. Apparently some engineers who were moving to resins and polys are moving back to anodized aluminum. Homer -- Your point about the money is well taken. It might take a very large contract or two to profit seriously.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • boeboeboeboe Member Posts: 3,331
    edited November -1
    I've thought Wichita Kansas would be a good place for a company for the same reasons as you, heavily into aircraft and plenty of small machine shops. I work at the Raytheon Aircraft plant here, and am a NDT (nondestructive testing) Level III as well as a certified Quality Auditor. I've been involved in auditing processes such as anodize (including hard coat), heat treat, plating, x-ray, ultrasonic testing, penetrant, "magnaflux" and similar special manufacturing processes. If you need any technical help along my lines, let me know.As far as product, I'd thought the way to do go fir instant appeal is to find ways around the existing laws, like Professional Ordnance is doing with their Carbon-15 pistol. The Kel-Tec folder is another example. Perhaps something really different, such as a genuinely high power air rifle. Or drive them nuts by producing a compact, shoulder held linear accelerator, capable of shooting sub-atomic particles at close to the speed of light. Okay, maybe that's extreme.I remember hearing a successful businessman say, there are more good ideas than there are people willing to work to make them successful. I think that's very true.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • 11thcanopy11thcanopy Member Posts: 448 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Read and re-read all of above the with much interest.Seem's to me that you might wish to consider doing something a bit different for, I assume, your first venture into a fireams related business.Don't know how "gun friendly" the area where you are located, but you might consider running a small gun show to determine how you like being in business for yourself.To promote and run a gun show certainly requires a minimum ofof physical equipment.There are also a number of organizations that have halls or ballrooms that can be rented for a reasonable sum. In addition to the rental fee the renting party usuallyprovides a snack bar that provides them additional income.Cash outlay would include the cost of the facility, overnight guards, advertising, insurance, mailings and your personal time.Know a gentleman who started with a small show once a month and turned it into a successful venture.In reading your initial post you certainly project an ability to do anything you set your mind to.Just my 2 cents worth, good luck.Jim De Witt, 11thcanopyPSHowever, if you do decide to try your hand at mfg. Please consider a HK Model 4 type pistol with four caliber capability.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    11th --I have chaired a couple of weekend conventions at our local Grand Wayne Center/Hilton Hotel complex, with budgets of $25,000 each and about 975 guest apiece, so I do have organizational experience from the large "show" standpoint. Fort Wayne is currently in the midst of an authentic economic development push and is looking to bring new businesses to the area, offering tax breaks and other incentives. This is an exceptionally gun-friendly area, as well. They would be happy to have a start-up company, or a new plant for an existing company, or even an assembler of surplus guns from parts kits, probably. The town is currently working under a very business-oriented mayor who was elected to make progress in a number of business development areas, and has been successful in attracting several million in seed money from Washington for a number of high-tech engineering projects. One option for me would be to get on the mailing lists for RFPs (Requests for Proposals) from the existing successful gun companies in an effort identify an appropriate project and to get together a group to bid and land a contract. It is conceivable that this area is friendly enough, and wages reasonable enough, to attract an existing manufacturer to go out of town to make one of their lines here. We are somewhat centrally located and have truck, railroad, and air freight infrastructure, including a regional headquarters of Kitty Hawk at our airport. It strikes me that a number of new gun model failures have been the result of making stupid mistakes and doing insufficient testing to catch and fix them before introduction -- and then not fixing them after introduction either. This is a business where it pays to listen to the end users, like Glock did when they went to the drop-free mags after input from users. You can't expect AMT to sell many back-ups in .45 caliber with a 15 pound trigger pull, for example. So a gun business (and by that I mean a producer of some kind, not a store) could be a contractor for an existing brand, a maker and distributor of a totally new design, an assembler of guns from new or surplus parts for the American market, or a producer of parts or subassemblies for an existing manufacturer. Or a maker of accessories (like Pachmayr, Bar-sto, Wilson, Cor-Bon, MagSafe, Galco, Scherer, etc.). One of the keys will be a very talented and highly knowledgeable design engineer who won't need to re-invent the wheel to come up with products that are durable and reliable and more desirable than currently available products. He or she would also need to be on the same page with the other principal managers as to what makes a delightful product. (I.e., you can't have your decision-makers split between the retro crowd who want to bring back a turn of the century classic and others who have their pulse on the best new design improvements.) I'm not finished, but I'm through .. for the moment. And thanks to those who have offered help, one way or another.
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
Sign In or Register to comment.