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Military Rifle under $650

trooperchintrooperchin Member Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited July 2002 in General Discussion
I would like to expand my horizons over just bp,handguns and shotguns. I would like to buy a good military rifle and im leaning towards perhaps a m1garand, cetme,or maybe an ak. Any advice? Also i'd mostly be using the rifle for plinking or possibly deer hunting.
Thanks alot.
Also for bulk ammo what would be cheaper .30-06, .308 or 7.62?

Go Army Beat Navy
IF you wanna have fun jine the cavalry

Edited by - trooperchin on 07/11/2002 18:39:52

Edited by - trooperchin on 07/11/2002 18:52:31

Edited by - trooperchin on 07/11/2002 18:53:03

Comments

  • simonbssimonbs Member Posts: 994
    edited November -1
    The Garand is my favorite, and I also hunt with it, but I'll be one of very few who reccomend it over the M1A, AK, or FAL. You can pick up a shooter (rebuilt, non-collector) for $400-$500.

    You've got a few things mixed up:

    M1 Garand is normally in .30-06
    5.56 is the same as .223, not .308
    .308 is 7.62x54, the AK/SKS shoots 7.62x39 (same diameter, different case length)

    HTH

    I'm not afraid of the dark...the dark is afraid of me!
  • trooperchintrooperchin Member Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks, im pretty much DUMB when it comes to to rifles.

    Go Army Beat Navy
    IF you wanna have fun jine the cavalry
  • simonbssimonbs Member Posts: 994
    edited November -1
    Not dumb, just not informed yet. I didn't know much of anything at one time, too. Just keep soaking up the good/free info here on the GB forums like I do and you'll learn alot, like I did.

    I'm not afraid of the dark...the dark is afraid of me!
  • E.WilliamsE.Williams Member Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The M1 Grand is a great rifle.Good for accuracy shoots and hunting.BUT if you want a good military rifle try to get your hands on an original M-14 if you cant go with a M1A1 by Springfield Armory.A little exspensive bt is a rifle that will never fail especially with deer within around 250 yards and it will still be good after any of us have parted this world.Something you can pass down.Good Luck

    Eric S. Williams
  • LowriderLowrider Member Posts: 6,587
    edited November -1
    I recently bought a great FN/FAL for 500 bucks. Compared to the CETME's I looked at, the FAL is a much better weapon. There's lots of cheap surplus .308 ammo around too.

    Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.
  • The LawThe Law Member Posts: 2,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ...Simonbs...correction....308 is 7.62x51...

    "Don't mistake my honesty for weakness...If I think your phony...I'll flame you in a heartbeat"...
  • tccoxtccox Member Posts: 7,379 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Don't forget the Brits!! The Enfields are good and cheap (inexpensive). If you have a C&R you can get a #1 MKIII for $85 from SOG. The #7 jungle for $150. They can be had in303 & 308. Tom

    Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who dont.
  • bullelkbullelk Member Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    simonbs,
    I hope you don't mind me correcting you.
    The .308 is 7.62x51 NATO, I believe you were thinking of the 7.62x54 Russian.

    "If All Else Fails, Read The Directions"
  • bullelkbullelk Member Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sorry Law,
    I didn't see your post before I posted mine.
  • armyboyarmyboy Member Posts: 11 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    ello
    me again
    yall forget the german
    they have the world famous Mauser
    you can get new ones or actually never used from www.mitchellsales.com
    they have from collector quality to shooter quality hungarian mauser for 200 buck for the shooter grade ones.i am planing to get one very soon just haven have time to go to my FFL dealer so that it can be ship there. and the ammo is cheap from www.sportmansguide.com fo 4.97 per 70 bullets.
    well tell us what you dicided ok

    JOIN THE ARMY BE ALL YOU CANNOT BE.
  • The LawThe Law Member Posts: 2,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ...bullelk....no problem...The Law doesn't mess with you!...

    "Don't mistake my honesty for weakness...If I think your phony...I'll flame you in a heartbeat"...
  • jonkjonk Member Posts: 10,121
    edited November -1
    A 1903 Springfield would also be an excellant choice. But if I had to pick just one gun for the starting military shooter, it would be one of three:

    1. Some sort of Enfield. Either .303 or .308, that is either a Brit or Indian would be great. I have a Mk IV and a Mk II 1A and both are very accurate and ammo is fairly cheap- and for .308 it is very cheap.

    2. An 8mm Mauser- Turk, Czech, or Yugo are all available right now and very cheap. Either pick one out in person or pay for the hand select to get a good bore or get one advertised as in mint shape. Again, ammo is dirt cheap.

    3. An M44 Mosin-Nagant. You can get one for well under $150 in unissued shape with all the goodies. Again, ammo is dirt cheap.

    None of the guns above will be too expensive, and you could get all three mausers, both enfields, and the Nagant for your $650, or just get one and have a ton of money left over. Beware though- much ammo for these is corrosive and requires a thorough cleaning after each shooting with either soap and water or special solvent.

    I have over 30 mil surplus guns and find them the only thing I want to shoot anymore. You'll get hooked, be warned.

    "...hit your enemy in the belly, and kick him when he is down, and boil his prisoners in oil- if you take any- and torture his women and children. Then people will keep clear of you..." -Admiral of the Fleet Lord Fisher, speaking at the Hague Peace Conf
  • quamnetquamnet Member Posts: 332 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have a Mak-90 (7.62x39) and love it. It seems to fit perfectly with what you asked for. It's great for plinking and I used it for hunting last year. People told me they weren't very accurate so I didn't want to go out and buy an expensive scope. I bought a real cheap leapers 4x scope and a $20 mount and had a gun. I sighted it in just as accurate as my 30-30. I shot a doe last year from 150+ yrds right through the heart. I'm not complaining at all. I bought 1000 rounds of Wolf hunting ammo for $70 and it works great. I think I paid $300 for the gun new but I got a deal. You could probably get one for around $400 new. (I also love the thumbhole stock, it feels more natural than pistol grip.) Hope this helps.
  • Shootist3006Shootist3006 Member Posts: 4,171
    edited November -1
    trooper, out of all the recommendations above, only 2 are worthwhile. Those are the M1 Garand and the 1903 (or1903A3) Springfield. You can get either in certified shooting condition in your price range from the CMP http://www.odcmp.com/ . The best thing is that these are in a decent caliber - 30-06

    Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis
  • TazmuttTazmutt Member Posts: 862 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Trooper - You should be able to pick up an M1 Garand Tanker, in .308 in you price range. Garands are a blast to shoot and the .308 ammo is considerably less expensive than 30-06.
  • simonbssimonbs Member Posts: 994
    edited November -1
    Thanks for catching that guys, I definetly don't mind being corrected.

    See what I was telling you earlier, Trooper. Great place to learn stuff, its OK to get mixed up on stuff as long as you learn the correct way in the end.

    I'm not afraid of the dark...the dark is afraid of me!
  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I own an AK variant but it would not be my first choice for deer hunting, for two reasons -- it wasn't designed for sniping (which I believe hunting is, in a way) and while it's a great mid-range combat round, it's less powerful and straight-shooting for clean deer kill out to 300 yards than your better options.

    I believe those who suggest .308 or .30-06 are right, with .308 NATO being cheaper and more easily available these days for obvious reasons. I would add, though, that if you want a maximum utility gun, then the semi-autos have the edge over the bolt actions for home & neighborhood defense. And of course, though I hesitate to say it, an "older model that holds 8 rounds loaded by stripper clips" might be less desirable in this role than a more modern design with exchangeable box magazines, if you see where I'm going with this.

    Under $650, some good choices have been suggested in semi-auto, among them the FAL. I would also consider the CETME/G3 variants -- IF you can get a good one with expert help. These are great, lightweight guns when in great condition. I might even consider steering you toward a good lightly USED gun, like an AR-10, which is also a .308 NATO caliber rifle. You seemed a bit tentative about the deer hunting -- so the only caution I would make here is that the mid-range rounds like the AKs and AR-15s have less recoil for plinking than a full-on battle rifle. So think about that, too. A battle rifle can also weigh as much as twice what a mid-range tactical rifle does. M1A? 15 pounds. Some of the AKs are closer to, and this is an off-hand guess, 7 or 8.

    As far as AKs are concerned, even the AK sniper Dragonov rifles are not the most accurate of sniper rifles for hunting, and I've seen Dragonovs way overpriced for what you get, so if I were you and looking for a deer hunter I'd scratch AKs, much as I love 'em for tactical stuff. You don't need a Dragonov for plinking -- an AK would be more fun in that role, by the way.

    For hunting deer, you're better off with any of the true battle rifles, probably in .308 NATO for price, and easy availability of ammo even in time of crisis. If you have to rely on mail order for your ammo, what are you going to do if things break down? And you don't need a bolt action for a good, accurate deer gun either, though it would certainly fill the bill for that alone. But do you really want to operate the bolt for every round while plinking?

    One final thought -- you asked about price, and I think you'll find that the cheapest of the 3 is the AK round, the 7.62x39. Next higher the .308, and highest, the .30-06. Which of course leads one to the natural question, if you really want a plinker and decent deer gun, why not consider a Mini-30 as well? I'd drop it onto your list, anyway. Those stainless ones are purdy, too. They're light to carry, semi-auto, and they take scopes with no problemos.

    Just some fodder for thought..... Everyone have a great weekend. The weather here is superb.

    - Life NRA Member
    "If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878



    Edited by - offeror on 07/12/2002 14:16:01
  • simonbssimonbs Member Posts: 994
    edited November -1
    Just one thing about the Garand:

    Its not loaded with "stripper clips", its loaded with Enbloc or E clips, and they are much faster than stripper clips.

    I can put 24 rounds in an 8" gong at 100 yards with my Garand, re-loading twice, only two seconds slower than my Uncle can put 20 in with his M1A.

    With the right round for the right situation, its the shooter, not the rifle, that makes the difference.

    I'm not afraid of the dark...the dark is afraid of me!
  • The LawThe Law Member Posts: 2,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Shootist; is telling you straight up! 30-06 is a great round to shoot!...Costs a little more, depending on whether you buy new or buy bulk...

    "Don't mistake my honesty for weakness...If I think your phony...I'll flame you in a heartbeat"...
  • airborneairborne Member Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Do it right, start with a 1903 Springfield, then a M1 Garand, next comes a M1a, next AR15, then finish off with AK-47, Cetme/FAL, etc.

    Don't forget a Mauser, Moslin Nagant, etc.

    B - BreatheR - RelaxA - AimS - SightS - Squeeze
  • martzkj@msn.commartzkj@msn.com Member Posts: 582 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would start off with good old American hardware! In your price you can get a 03, garand or m1 carbine. However the carbine would not be a good choice for deer hunting. My choice would be an M1A however you would need to add a few hundered to get a nice one. An AR15 is also nice however not a good choice for deer hunting and a little more than the price you set.
  • Shootist3006Shootist3006 Member Posts: 4,171
    edited November -1
    Offerer said quote:A battle rifle can also weigh as much as twice what a mid-range tactical rifle does. M1A? 15 pounds. but he is a little off. A standard M1A weighs 9.2 pounds http://www.springfield-armory.com/*-rifles-m1a-stan.shtml

    I agree with simonbs that a trained (or even partially trained) rifleman can get MORE aimed shots off with an M1 than with an M1A (or M14) You can insert a clip and fire 5 or 6 rounds while the M1A user is changing mags.

    Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis
  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I might be a little off, but not as much as you'd think. The rifle shown has the fiberglass stock. The wood stock adds another .3 pounds alone. The rifle weight is probably given without the weight of a) wood stock, b) any magazine, let alone a full pre-ban 20 rd. mag and c) scope, which seems to show up often on these for longer range shooting. So the classic wood model, loaded, is easily double the weight of say, a similarly equipped M1 Carbine or even an AK, even if it's only an 11 or 12 pound weapon. I will grant you though that I probably was going by some vendor's "shipping weight," which is a bad idea, since that includes packaging. Sorry for the overestimate.

    While I'm editing, I might as well add that I was not too impressed by simon's logic about what a trained rifleman might be able to do, especially when we're addressing someone buying his first rifle for plinking and a bit of deer hunting. Nor do magazines have the same limitations as clips in terms of the number of rounds per change. While the 10-rd. max may reduce the advantage, a pre-ban 20 rd. mag, especially if you use the jungle-clip method of attaching a couple of mags together for quicker reloads, probably increases the average rifleman's overall firepower. A man with a 20 rd. mag has to reload less than half as often as the man with the 8-rd clip, and can do it quicker with less training, I would think. I haven't bothered with clips all that much, though I've got a few of the strippers for my AK mags. I realize we're not talking those here, but in future never assume I'm talking post-ban mags, either. Don't like 'em, won't use 'em on a gun made to take the larger capacity ones. Even Springfield's website only shows their guns with the pre-ban mags in place. And that's 20 rounds to the Garand's 8.

    I have nothing invested in which is the better rifle. Frankly, I prefer a lighter gun in general, so I would go for the Tanker in the Garand (as someone here suggested) or the bush rifle in the M1A anyway. What I lose in accuracy (if anything, because the gun generally shoots better than the man) I gain in portability. I have no doubt, and I mean this, that there is much to love about both these fine weapons. If I were a rich man (thanks, Fiddler) I'd own at least one of each. But I still wouldn't find them as handy as something the size of my AK type 56, maybe a G3 carbine, or certainly my M1 carbine (God bless you, Mr. Williams). Okay, group hug! (Just kidding....)

    - Life NRA Member
    "If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878


    Edited by - offeror on 07/13/2002 12:57:12
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