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GAYS IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
turbo
Member Posts: 820 ✭✭✭✭
This subject is and has become a very volatile and conrroversial issue, recently in the lite of the pediphillia scandal within the Catholic Church.
I for one would welcome Nunn, to poof this post as soon as he deams it inappropriate, by the comments made by anyone who cannot handle what is obviously the truth.
Not being a member of this church, and knowing very little of it's inner workings, I do understand that this church, holds the bible + tradition to be their aithority for the establishment of dcotrine and teachings and,
On the news this evening certain homosexual rights groups have raised the claim, pedophilia and homosexuality to be separate and totally not associated with each other as crimes against children.
And, in the same news report "Fox News Report" with Brit Hume, it was reported that a full 2/3 of the bishops had handled priests accused, convicted and self confessed pedephilla priests by reassigning them to different positions within the church but not being removed from the ministry. The report went on to raise the issue of married clergy; and then talked about homosexual priests marrying same sex partners, and young boys.
Then my wife pointed out to me an article in U.S. News and World Report on April 1 "Can the Church save it's Soul", concerning this problem with the church, together with the following Speical Edition where on p. 3 , where leters to the editor where aired, at the bottom of the page, there appears the following;
"Clarification: Only members of religious orders take vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. Diocesan priests do not take these vows as implied in "Chastity and Lust" [April 1]"
Is their anyone that understands the inner working of the church enough to understand what this means?
It doesn't make sense to me that on the one hand celibacy is the life time commitment to the priesthood, while vows of "Chastity and Lust" are excluded.
The whole issue it seems to me is "Chastity and Lust"
It just doesn't sound right, that bishops who seem to protect priests who are able to intercede (forgive a persons sins), can be so casual about their lifestyles.
Should priests with the church be allowed to marry?
"The great object is that every man.... everyone who is able may have a gun." Patrick Henry
I for one would welcome Nunn, to poof this post as soon as he deams it inappropriate, by the comments made by anyone who cannot handle what is obviously the truth.
Not being a member of this church, and knowing very little of it's inner workings, I do understand that this church, holds the bible + tradition to be their aithority for the establishment of dcotrine and teachings and,
On the news this evening certain homosexual rights groups have raised the claim, pedophilia and homosexuality to be separate and totally not associated with each other as crimes against children.
And, in the same news report "Fox News Report" with Brit Hume, it was reported that a full 2/3 of the bishops had handled priests accused, convicted and self confessed pedephilla priests by reassigning them to different positions within the church but not being removed from the ministry. The report went on to raise the issue of married clergy; and then talked about homosexual priests marrying same sex partners, and young boys.
Then my wife pointed out to me an article in U.S. News and World Report on April 1 "Can the Church save it's Soul", concerning this problem with the church, together with the following Speical Edition where on p. 3 , where leters to the editor where aired, at the bottom of the page, there appears the following;
"Clarification: Only members of religious orders take vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. Diocesan priests do not take these vows as implied in "Chastity and Lust" [April 1]"
Is their anyone that understands the inner working of the church enough to understand what this means?
It doesn't make sense to me that on the one hand celibacy is the life time commitment to the priesthood, while vows of "Chastity and Lust" are excluded.
The whole issue it seems to me is "Chastity and Lust"
It just doesn't sound right, that bishops who seem to protect priests who are able to intercede (forgive a persons sins), can be so casual about their lifestyles.
Should priests with the church be allowed to marry?
"The great object is that every man.... everyone who is able may have a gun." Patrick Henry
Comments
Priests are people, too. People have an innate desire or predisposition to sin. Pedophilia is a sin. Homosexual or otherwise, it's a sin. They will pay when they meet God, if they have not attoned properly for their sins in this life.
This is a black eye for the church and it is beyond painful. As a life-long Catholic, and one who once wanted to become a priest (another priest convinced me otherwise with these words.."You'd make a shitty priest), it sucks to be one now.
However, people have to realize that within ever society, there are those who will misuse the trust of their friends, people, etc. They will be punished adequately in this life and the here after.
Artillery lends dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.
[/b]
I understand we all are susceptible to sin.
I guess want I'm interested in understanding, is this;
I ask it here because there are those that consider themselves liberated from God and the things of God, and have no qualms about defending Homosexuality while condemning Pedophillia
Whats the difference between Pedophillia and Homosexuality that makes them both not to be considered in the same class of abuses against nature. For the lack of better words, a homosexual act against a child seems to be called pedophillia, while the same act on older male would be called rape, or simply a homosexual act.
Celibacy, is not compatibale with either pedophilia and homosexuality.
Yet seemingly good intentioned citizens, would agree with these rights groups, that homosexuality is not a crime , but pedophillia, is.
"The great object is that every man.... everyone who is able may have a gun." Patrick Henry
As for your mention of paedophiles, I would guess that the worst offenders are not members of an "order" and are basically nobodies within the church, which probably causes their depression which leads to their inability to resist their desires. Of course paedophilia is wrong and against the doctrine of the church, and the church should take a more hard-line stance against it. I see where they are coming from, however; practically speaking, they can keep the offenders useful by taking them out of ministry and putting them in other jobs in the church, since the church has the lowest recruitment numbers in history right now. Homosexual rights groups are correct when they say that paedophilia and homosexuality are separate. The official position seems to be that homosexuality in the church is acceptable as long as the feelings are not acted out, because there is no same-sex marriage in the Roman church, and there likely will never be. What I'm saying is that the church does not seem to view homosexuality in itself as "wrong." On that note, I'm sure that some of the "pillars of the community" that protestant Christians see every week are quietly homosexual, but you are all too much in denial to admit that to yourselves.
says it is ok, then stick with the Bible.
Appreciate your insite; I heard that their is many lay groups within the church to correct this issue; that is to say, homosexuality ought to be looked at in the same lite as the Bible declares it to be.
I was wondering have you heard of a new book published within the Roman Catholic Chruch by an investigative reporter by the name of Michael Rose, editor of a website ;
http://Cruxnews.com I hope this right.
The book is entitled; "Goodbye Goodmen" ;
I understand he really exposes homosexuality in Roman Catholic seminaries, especially the Jesuit seminaries.
As for your;
quote: On that note, I'm sure that some of the "pillars of the community" that protestant Christians see every week are quietly homosexual, but you are all too much in denial to admit that to yourselves.
you may be right, this is why I would be very careful to get to know my pastor and teacher of my church or school; to insure my children are being taught an extension of what I and my wife desire they learn.
Personally, I wouldn't stand by passively watching on the sidelines if I new there were this types of people in positions of aythority or leadership roles.
The spin even the media puts on the bishops plans to put a policy forth of that will allow first time offenders to remain in the ministry, is interersting since most all offenders accused till now have been accused by several persons, and of multiple occasions,
It isn't as if it was one offense, which could be interpreted as a slip on the hand or an inapproriate bump, which would be at odds with this idea that this one time offender never committed his fantasies ever before.
While reading the reviews on this book, there was a quote of a bishop who had resigned after being accused of pedophillia, "claiming he was a victim of his own "naieve" behaviour.
I don't understand how anybody can make the argument the this scandal is not about sex.
No matter what denomination, anyone that is around children and has these tendencies, in my opinion, he needs to watched very carefully or removed from any possibility of illegal contact with children and this includes homosexuals, no exceptions.
"The great object is that every man.... everyone who is able may have a gun." Patrick Henry
Please take time right now to PRAY and we will trust God for the answers in his way inf his time!
Ken
All this stuff about the Catholic Church just solidify my already rock-solid belief that God is just wishful thinking on the part of mankind...
Go ahead, blast away fellas. It's just my opinion but I know I probably just offended a whole bunch of you. SORRY!
Gun Control Disarms Victims, NOT Criminals
Surely, you're not suggesting that what you believe, your Church teaches is not accepted by faith? Especially when some of the teachings are no where to found in scripture., but are implied by those who whish to teach doctrine.
In my opinion it takes more faith to believe some of the traditions the Roman Catholic church teach, and atheists believe, than to simply put ones faith in the promises as delineated in Scripture.
Atheists, willingly make themselves ignorant concerning the creation and its Creator by closing their minds to the account of the creation, in spite of the clear physical evidence; while accepting impossible theories as concrete evidence for life's beginnings . And to complicate their error, God himself after being rejected by these, rejects them so that they are given over to "believe lies" (Rom chap 1)because of this willful ignorance, it's not that they can't, but that even if it was shown to them they would not believe,
Consider this, in spite of the fact that all living animals are made up of DNA , arranged in such a way that it determines not only the sex of the animal but its species, if one was to strike a dog in the head with a sledgehammer, all that happens is the DNA gets rearranged in the dogs head, but when that happens the dog inevitably dies from this massive re arrangement syndrome , the chances of that DNA rearranging itself is nil. The dog dies within minutes 9 times out of 10 ; yet many teach DNA arranges itself given time, even creates new species.
So that in the end its not their intellect that keeps them from knowing the will of God ( for they are smart as foxes) but it is their will that keeps them from the truth..
The Roman Catholic church teaches many of its central doctrines by faith; here are just 2 of them
PURGATORY; The church taught for many years that this place was, a place where those that died in sin went to have their sins removed, and that it was a place of suffering, "heat and torment", and that your living relatives could do good works and pray for your soul, which could be used to atone for these sins.
Most recently in an article dated Aug 13, 1999, Toronto Globe Mail, The Pope was quoted as follows:
from a series of catechism lessons concerning the nature of purgatory;
Purgatory , explained the pope, is merely a purification process on the way to heaven . Those who have lived imperfect lives but have "died in the love of God" must pass through it before entering paradise,
"Before we enter God's kingdom, every trace of sin within us must be eliminated, every imperfection in our soul must be corrected," he said,
"This is exactly what takes place in purgatory."
Instead of being imprisoned in a bleak limbo, those in purgatory "are immersed in the love of Christ, " the pope said. He mentioned nothing about sins being expunged by pain and suffering.
Cardinal O'Connell of Boston, in The Catholic Church, the True Church of the Bible, p. 178; gives this account of "Purgatory"
" It is of faith that there is a place we call purgatory, where petty faults, or the temporal punishment due to sin, are expiated."
THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS; In the most uncompromising language, the Roman Catholic church teaches by faith, (contrary to the clear teaching of scripture), that in the sacrifice of the mass the priest makes a PROPITIATORY SACRIFICE for the sins of the people,
The Council of Trent, 22d session in 1562 ad had the mass for its subject of consideration, and passed a decree containing nine explanatory chapters, and nine cannons, pope PiusIV confirmed the decree of the Council of Trent at the conclusion of their sessions, and in these words he summed up the doctrine of the Mass;
"I profess that in the Mass there is offered to God a true proper and propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the living and the dead"
On the other hand;
The Scriptures state the following about this Jesus (whom Josephus, the historian refers to) and his PROPITIATORY SACRIFICE, for his people.
"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many" (Heb 9:28)
"But this man after He had offered one sacrifice for sin forever sat down on the right hand of God"
(Heb 10:12)
"For by one offering He has perfected for ever those that are sanctified" (Heb 10:14)
And, these make it even more plane;
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (Heb 10:16)
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.(Heb 10:17)
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.(Heb 10:18)
I also, believe secular history is credible, in some cases more credible that than what is taught by the clergy. this is the reason why, one must consider that Jesus himself, warns his disciples,
"....,Take heed that no man deceive you." (Mt 24:4)
I guess what the real issue is;
" WHO SHOULD ONE BELIEVE and TRUST IN?"
.
"The great object is that every man.... everyone who is able may have a gun." Patrick Henry
Edited by - turbo on 06/13/2002 22:57:03
Edited by - turbo on 06/13/2002 23:02:59
Gays must abide by all churchs laws. I quess God must deal with them.
If they don't- kicke'm out.
Could I humbly suggest that all those who are interested in this subject (interested as defined by reading this posting) should spend some time in prayer this week for the bishops who are meeting in Dallas right now - they need the guidance of the Holy Spirit to make some decisions that will restore confidence in the clergy.
Please take time right now to PRAY and we will trust God for the answers in his way inf his time!
Ken
KEN,
Although I am not a Roman Catholic, I agree with you, in the interest of what is right, christians ought to pray for all who are in bondage to sin, that they might acknowledge their error of their ways before God and trust in Him, He is able to not only forgive them, but bring out of darkness into HIS light.
We need to stand up to this anarchistic humanistic philosophical teaching that man ultimately should be able to do anything that gratifys them, without regard to the rights of others, all in the interest of individual freedom.
Although protestants and catholics or, mormons and other faiths don't agree on bible teachings, there should be no reason why we cannot raise a united front of what is right against this liberal global ideologoy, that is destroying our very frabric of the family heritage.
Anyhow, this is my opinion.
"The great object is that every man.... everyone who is able may have a gun." Patrick Henry
I'm not Roman Catholic either, but I am praying for our brothers who are meeting right now. Seems like the bishop from Belleville, IL is speaking in real genuine terms of loving concern for those who have been deeply wronged by the clergy. He said that 0.5% of the priests have been offenders, but the greater problem is that 2/3 of the bishops have not handled the problem correctly.
There is HOPE! Let's keep praying!
Ken
They claim .05% of priests are offenders; while insiders such as this author of the book mentioned above, claim the gay seminarys have been producing priests since the sixties, and they have within their numbers up to .70% gay seminarians, not to mention the support staff.
I was reading on another site, where this person stated the church doesn't care what the priests sexual orientation and lifestyle is because its irrelevant with his duties.
Non catholics have no way of changing this churches policies, but the catholic faithful can and should, it would be a sad day for them to sit by idly, while the hierarchy who is obviously not able to lead in this matter to do what is right, and what is right is for those 2/3 of these bishops who protected the priests to step down.
"The great object is that every man.... everyone who is able may have a gun." Patrick Henry
It is true that the current scandal is about crimes against youth, and the necessity of stopping the abusive behavior against the innocent, but many church members who are outraged do not limit their anger to the abusers and offenders. They take exception to any gay in any capacity.
Can a gay person be holding out hope to change the institution from the inside? Highly unlikely. It would seem to me that gays must have gotten into churches (of any faith) mostly as they get anywhere else in life, with the help of the "closet," or at the very least the don't ask, don't tell concept. That, and the fact that there probably are enough gay clerics to make for a kind of tacit inside acceptance of one another, a sort of "brotherhood or sisterhood," in a loose sense. I have a feeling Hollywood has the same kind of system in place and has since time immemorial.
The interesting thing is that when the clerics meet, and vote to defrock or punish those who are active abusers, will the faithful be content? You can bet that not all gays will voluntarily speak up and leave the priesthood of any church despite this abuse scandal and debate, any more than all gays raised their hands in Hollywood and volunteered to stop accepting leading man or lady roles after Rock Hudson was "found out." In fact, more are becoming emboldened to identify themselves in the entertainment industry.
But a church is an institution founded on moral dogma, so there is a legitimate question for them. Bishop Skylstad is on TV right now calling today's meeting and agreement in Dallas a watershed moment for the Catholic church, meaning, I guess, that the church feels the crisis is already passing. It sounds to me like just being gay is not going to become the issue for this church or any other.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878