Which 9mm?

mvand

Hello all,
With a growing interest in firearms for recreation and home defense, I am considering buying my second handgun (my first being a Ruger GP100). I have decided on a 9mm because of relatively low cost for ammo, and I want a semi-auto, but there are so many names out there I am a bit overwhelmed. I was hoping to get your input to limit the field a bit. My primary concerns are long-term reliability and accuracy, and the ability to shoot all ammo (including reloads) of the correct caliber with a minimum of jams. Once the field is reduced I will determine what fits me. I appreciate any and all input, including what materials and finishes to consider. My first inclinations include Browning Hi Power, Ruger, maybe CZ, and......too many to look at. Thanks for the help!



Edited by - mvand on 07/21/2002 15:09:43

offeror

If you want to participate, you're going to have to lose the spam first. I suggest you trim the above post and we'll be glad to talk 9mm with you.

- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878

dads-freehold

greetings, offeror doesn't mean to be anti-social,he accually plays well with the other children,but he likes to stay within the rules.me i color outside the lines all the time. try the cz-75 series, the ruger p-series (p-94dc my favorite), the witness line, the star m-30m .i have some others but try any or all of the above and you won't go wrong. oh you should loose the spam, many will segregate you. respt submitted dads-freehold

rodney colson

Gordian Blade

I got a used S&W 5906, which I like a lot. The trigger is very smooth and it's rugged. If you can find a used one with one or two pre-94 15 round magazines, that's a plus. A lot of them are police trade-ins with holster wear, but police trade-ins usually weren't shot a lot.

For practice, use FMJ ammo. For self-defense, JHP.

offeror

dads --
Trouble is, some marketers will sign up only so they can post the spam, not to read your response. We'll see which of us is on target in this case by whether the spam stays or goes.

- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878

Nighthawk

Everyone will have their preference I dont like the Browning Hi Power because the hammer is bad to pinch your hand when the slide cycles.The MkII may be better.The Ruger KP89 is a reliable weapon that shoots well,will shoot most any ammo mine likes it all,and if kept maintained will give you a lifetime of service.The CZ75B is as good as it gets,it is as good as any handgun out there,there are some as good,but none better in my opinion.Some may be more easy to conceal or may be lighter or have more features.I would go to my gun dealer and handle the guns your considering and see which one best fits your hand,and has the best point of aim in your hand.You may find one that you like better than the ones you mentioned.They are alot of other brand name 9MMs to choose from.



Best!!

Rugster

mvand

You all are great!
Thanks for the prompt replies. Didn't mean to offend anyone. What difference does the weight of the gun make? (poly frame vs steel?)

E.Williams

I agree with Gordian Blade on the 5906 Smith I have shot one for years and its the most reliable auto-loader I have seen.There are so many good guns in 9mm that youll go crazy trying to figure the best.Smith,HK,SIG,Glock,CZ and of corse the Browning Hi-Power are all at the top of the heap.Just remember when making your selection since its a 9mm make sure you get one that has Hi-Cap mags out there I feel that is the only desirable feature to the 9mm.Smith &Wesson 5906 has very cheap hi-caps 15+1,And the Browning Hi-Power you can get mags all the way up to 30 rounds for them relatively cheap.Take a look at that Smith 5906 though its DA/SA opposed to the Brownings S/A.I actually feel more weight is better for limited use if you were to carry it all day then it would be an issue but go all steel or aluminum frame no polymer frames.

Eric S. Williams

Edited by - E.Williams on 07/21/2002 15:38:53

offeror

The 9mm is not too heavy-kicking a caliber to make a good gun for polymer-steel combinations. The Glocks are particularly good 9mm polymer-frame guns. The Hi-Powers are nice single actions, but can be more expensive if you buy a real one. Also, they do have a couple of quirks. There are lots of cheaper, good clones out there by now, though, to choose from, if you can't afford an original.

The CZ line is excellent, and celebrated 25 years of the CZ75 in 2000. Jeff Cooper loved 'em from the start. The slide rides inside, rather than on, the frame rails. I like the CZ85, myself. Kahr is also now well respected for their 9s. If price is a major consideration, a used Glock will still have a lifetime of use left in it, or you can go after a CZ, Ruger, or EEA Witness, or a Taurus Millennium like the PT111. All are proven. The S&W semi-autos, the Sigs, the HKs, and the Berettas are also nice guns but more expensive. You might find a nice used Beretta, however.

The older style 9s like the P-38 can be fun, but some have a needlessly heavy trigger pull, and the Luger line is more expensive and the technology has been surpassed by newer designs.

Guns are built to last, and unless one has been abused, a good used piece can be a great value -- at least, the dealers seem to think so when I want to sell one of mine. (!)

You won't find many fans of Hi-Point around here though. They're a step too low on the pole for most of us. Make good gang-banger pieces, apparently, but they're roughly made and ugly as sin.

There is literally no limit to your choices in the 9mm, since its consumer popularity these last 25 years. Good 9s have come and gone, from the Firestar to, well, you name the brand. As you narrow it down, we may be able to be of more help.

- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878

offeror

By the way, mv, sorry to be touchy about the signature thing. I just couldn't bear the thought of seeing that on ALL your posts from now on. Anyway, E. Williams makes a great point about the hi-cap mags. You'd do very, very well to pick one that happens to come with pre-ban mags. I would make that one of your criteria for purchase.

- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878

RugerNiner

Gee, What Brand of 9mm to Buy?

I'll have to Think about that one.

Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!

Rembrandt

Can't help myself, just have to weigh in on this....Browning Hi-Power would be my pick. This has been used by more Military and police forces worldwide than any other. It's been around for nearly 70 years, it was the first double stack pistol (designed by John Moses Browning) on the market. Probably the most elegant and well balanced 9mm ever built. Spur hammers do bite some folks hands, easy remedy, change it to a ring hammer. Unfortunately Browning was a little late coming to the market with a double action and lost a great deal of market share to Glock and others.

mvand

Thanks for the good input, Steve..
I am still very new to all this, and living in CA makes matters worse. I realize there is a 10 rnd limit legally for me, but I don't have a good feel yet as to how things work for purchasing used firemarms. Since it has appeared to me that good deals on used guns are extremely hard to find (as well as finding a reasonably priced transfer FFL nearby), I haven't put much effort into pursuing the thought. I suppose in a few cases an older hi-cap mag (purchased later)will still fit into a new gun?

Fep1990

The Ruger P series are good quality, low cost handguns. The ones that I have owned would eat anything without so much as a hicupp (SP?). If you are looking for a small CCW, Look at the Kel-Tec P11. They are very concealable, but with the 10 round cap....also will take the S&W 59 and 69 series hi-capacity magazines.

idsman75

You really can't go wrong with any of the firearms you mentioned. Hold each one in your hand. Try to get to a gun range that allows you to rent firearms and rent some representative samples and shoot them. I love my Ruger P95DC. I like the decocker as opposed to a traditional safety. It eats up everything I feed it in a very reliable fashion and it is accurate enough for me. Personal preference weighs heavily here. The S&W 5906 is a good choice if you want to find relatively inexpensive hi-cap magazines.

E.Williams

Do they issue permits for concealed carry in Commifornia?Not being a smart * but curious about that with their stand on guns.

Eric S. Williams

Gordian Blade

To answer your question about magazines, many 10 round post-ban magazines for full-sized pistols are simply higher capacity magazines with an artificial crimp or barrier to prevent more than 10 rounds from being inserted. What I am saying is that generally the old high-cap ones work fine in a given type of pistol.

Now, as for used guns, I have a gun store that I purchased my favorite two guns from, which happen to be used, and both on the dealer's recommendation. (They are a Marlin Camp 9mm Carbine and a S&W 5906 pistol, if you are wondering, and they both use the same type magazines.) I can't say if the S&W 5906 is California legal or not, but if it is, a dealer can get one for you. For one in good shape, expect to pay $350-$375. You can get an idea of what's for sale on GunBroker by going to modern firearms / pistols / semiauto and searching on 5906.

If you can't get or don't want the S&W, and you are just starting out and want a new pistol, I would go with a Ruger. OK, so Bill Ruger (may he RIP) said some things I don't like. You are buying American, it is a good deal for the money, and they are solid. You can always spend more for another upscale pistol later, maybe you will decide you want a larger caliber. You'll have to check which size (full or compact) fits your hand best.

E.Williams

Another good point to Hi-Cap mags is with 15+ rounds in the mag it will shave even more recoil off a already very mild round.A full hi-cap can add a good bit of weight.

Eric S. Williams

Edited by - E.Williams on 07/21/2002 17:14:23

Gordian Blade

I forgot one more thing. This really threw me before I bought my first pistol and I was looking through catalogs, until I did some research. What is the difference between DA (double action) and SA (single action), and how can a pistol be DA/SA at the same time? I'm sure some of the more experienced people here will correct me if I mess up my explanation.

There are basically two actions needed for the firing pin to strike the primer. The first is for the hammer to cock back into the ready position. The second is for the hammer to release forward and strike the firing pin, which strikes the primer.

A DA pistol cocks the hammer and then releases it with one continuous pull of the trigger. Generally, the time when you are cocking the hammer takes more force than when you are releasing it, but that can vary from gun to gun. With a DA pistol, you can keep a round in the chamber with the hammer down, then one pull of the trigger is all it takes to fire.

A SA pistol will allow you to cock the hammer first, either manually or when it automatically loads the next round, then a relatively light pull of the trigger will fire the round.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both. My S&W 5906 allows either mode for the first shot, then subsequent shots are SA unless you "decock" the hammer with the safety lever. Glocks are DA only on all shots, and all shots require exactly the same trigger force.

This gives you something else to think about before you buy.

Lowrider

GLOCK

Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.

mvand

This is all very helpful. To answer Eric about CCW, it is my understanding that it is VERY difficult for the average citizen to get a CCW permit. Of course, it depends on the county in which one tries, but I am in Ventura county, close to L.A., and one must apparently have a very compelling reason to obtain one here. I will continue to look into this as time goes on. (And I understand any criticism of CA!). Thanks for mentioning the SA/DA issue. I have still not concluded which I would prefer, but assume I will get used to either one..and what about those without a cockable hammer? Also, which finishes are generally more wear-resistant/durable? polycoat, blue, or maybe get a SS?

E.Williams

Id say go with DA/SA you stil get S/A but have the safety and the option of DA so I always go with the DA.I would say out of what you listed Stainles is the most durable.You can send your gun to ROBAR and get the Ro-Guard finish which is highly durable.But I would reccomend a DA/SA stainless 5906.Another good thing about about the DA/SA as opposed to DAO is at the range always pulling double can get old real quick.Unless you get a 3.5# pull Glock and I dont think thats as safe as DA/SA.

Eric S. Williams

E.Williams

Another thing if you get a Smith 5906 I wouldnt get a new one try to find one manufactured in the early to mid 90's.

Eric S. Williams

offeror

If you ever get down to North Hollywood, look up B&B Sales in the phone book. I believe they are on Oxnard St. and they have the best and biggest gun store on the North side of the L.A. area, and their prices are usually better than the smaller shops too. Their salesmen are gung ho and above average. They have a great selection. The other shop on the North end of town is Gun World, toward Reseda, also a nice quality shop with a Target Range attached and guns for rental.

The only thing I would add to the DA/SA discussion is that striker fired guns don't have a hammer; the trigger pull applies tension to the striker (a long, spring loaded pin) and releases it. The spring tension required to operate a striker is a lot less than that required to draw back a hammer, so striker fired guns like the Glock, which are still technically double action, need only a 5 lb. trigger pull to do the same job as a 12-lb. double action revolver.

The Glocks and some other guns have a choice of trigger springs for a pull from 5 up to 8 or more pounds, which is a nice easy, but safe, trigger pull. The striker fired Millennium line from Taurus, like the PT111, has a standard trigger pull about 8 or 9 pounds. The Para-Ordnance 1911 line has come out with a Light Double Action (LDA) model that has a pull that I hear is around 7 pounds, also a great idea.

The nice thing about a trigger pull between 5 to 9 pounds for a defense gun is that its a good balance between safety (against an accidental discharge) and ease of fire. I know women with small hands who can't even pull a 12 pound revolver trigger. On the other hand, if have a 3 pound or "hair trigger," you may be more likely to have an accident or be accused of one.

I like the Browning Hi-Power's aesthetics as well as anyone. They used to have a few quirks, though, like a too-small ejection port and a magazine spring that held up better if you loaded its hi-cap mag one round less than maximum. But the feel of the grip and the pointability are heavenly and with current designs I believe the gun is quite nice.

The Glock takes a bad rap for being black and looking all-business, but they feel good to shoot. I've had guests at the range for whom the Glock was their favorite feeling gun to shoot, over a metal pistol. The Glock has a strong polymer grip frame and a metal slide with a coating of that super-strong Tenifer finish you were talking about. They're nearly impervious to casual damage and have undergone a wide variety of torture testing. Also, their mags are double reinforced with steel and polymer, and the feed lips hold rounds very securely for reliable feeding and no "pop-outs," in my experience.

Since the 10 round capacity is such a recent development, every handgun I can think of that used to take hi-cap mags is still the same gun -- still manufactured to take those mags. That's because if I have a supply of those mags, I would expect my newly-bought gun to still be able to load them -- I'm entitled. And hi-cap mags are still legal in many if not most places in America, as long as they were manufactured before the ban went into effect. Any used gun may still be purchased with its hi-cap mags intact, except maybe in California.

I like the CorBon 115 grain ammo for the 9mm -- its ballistics are very near to police hi-pressure velocities (1100 fps) and its terminal effect is very good. But there are other good loads from Nyclad to Hydra-Shok to Silvertips.







- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878

mvand

The store info is very helpful, as was the mention of spring tensions. Most local shops have a very limited selection of makes and models to try, so hopefully B&B will be a good choice. That will make a great trip for my day off. (Having trouble locating Gun World).

offeror

Maybe Gun World is Encino. Anyway, it's out that way. The alternate shop title is Target Range, I believe.

- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878

WyomingSwede

Re: original question- which wondernine?

Don't ignore the Heckler & Koch p-7 squeeze cocker. Only the most accurate and reliable 9mm semiauto that I have ever fired. Warning: they are spendy...run over $1100. Take a look at one before you make your decision. They are deadly accurate and easily concealable.

regards swede

WyomingSwede

daddo

You'll like "Glock".

leeblackman

Ruger P Series
CZ 75, 85, or 100
Colt
Glock 17 or 34
Springfield Armory XD or 1911
HS2000
Browning High Power
Beretta 92 or Cougar
S&W Sigma or Sigma E or SW99
Walther P88 or P99
Daewoo
Taurus
UZI Eagle
EAA Witness
Strayer-Voigt
Para-Ordnance
Sig Sauer P220, 226, 228, 229, Sig Pro
Les Baer Custom 1911
Wilson Custom 1911
AMT/Galena
Kahr K9
Kel-Tec P11
Kimber 1911
Heckler & Koch USP or P7


If I'm wrong please correct me, I won't be offended.

The sound of a 12 gauge pump clears a house fatser than Rosie O eats a Big Mac !

twins

Buy a Ruger P85, built like a tank and functions flawlessly. Not to mention they come with 15 round clips. Not for concealed carry however.

offeror

lee --
In this case, how could you be wrong? You named every decent gun out there. The only thing I've been thinking is that I'm sure there's also a 1911 clone in 9mm, just can't think who makes it.

By the way, I've had my eye on an Uzi Eagle for a while. They're no longer marked Uzi, so I'd like an older one with the Uzi name on it. Nice little pieces, those "baby eagles." I'm not sure whether that was the same gun also called the Mauser M2 for a while or not. But I do know EAA makes mags for them in .40 caliber and lists TZ as well as the Eagles for mag fit. This design gets around.

- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878

Shootist3006

Gordian, I always thought that "double" action meant that a handgun (pistol/revolver) could be fired in BOTH of the types of action, either by using the trigger to cock and fire or by using your thumb or the recoil to cock the piece and the trigger to fire it. Thus a "single" action would include a classic SAA Colt or a Glock while a true "double" action would be something like a RedHawk or a Beretta. Those things that call themselves DAO are in fact single action firearms!!!

Back to mvand's question, the Browning Hi-Power (M35) is the best possible 9 MM. Why anyone would buy plastic when steel is available is beyond comprehension.

Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis

jastr

I would consider the following three based on what you have stated as your needs in a handgun.( reliability, quality/durability) I would strongly recomend looking into the sig series handguns, or possibly kimber...I only recomend these if money is not the issue, also an H&K would do nice....Ruger though on the cheaper end of the scale, makes a damn fine handgun....I say stay away from the plastic.

lets all be responsible! shoot a criminal! Remember 0% of firearms pull there own trigger!

leeblackman

Oh yea, I almost forgot. If you are really strapped for cash, and just want something for kinda plinking around with. You could always get a Hi-Point. They are at least safe to shoot, and a little more relaible than what you'd expect.

If I'm wrong please correct me, I won't be offended.

The sound of a 12 gauge pump clears a house fatser than Rosie O eats a Big Mac !

ccasey612

I like the ruger p-85. It shoots well for me and it comes with preban 15 round mags. It is also pretty cheap. I got mines for like $299 and it came with 2 15 round mags.

If you will blame gun makers for every shooting then blame car maker for every car accident.

pabooger

RUGER p95, HAVE ONE, REASONABLY PRICED, VERY DEPENDABLE, WELL BUILT, HAS NEVER FAILED ME, BUT DAMM IT'S UGLY, AND DID I MENTION IT WILL OUT SHOOT MY BUDDIES GLOCK AND HIS WALTHER!!!! JUST MY TWO CENTS BOOGER

offeror

Hi-Points take the word "blocky" to a whole new level. They may shoot decent, but I think of them as drive-by specials. That may be unfair, but their engineers could do better in the cheap aesthetics department. I realize they need to keep costs down, but taking a piece of bar steel and drilling a hole for the barrel isn't my idea of a nice gun. And they're too big. But like you said, if you're counting pennies, at least you'll have something left over for plain wrap ammo.

- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878

Gordian Blade

Unless my life literally depended on it, I wouldn't be caught dead with a Hi-Point. Wow, that was a really bad way to put it!

ccasey612

P-89 and P-85 looks alike to me. I think they are nice looking. On the other hand I think Glocks are nice looking too.

If you will blame gun makers for every shooting then blame car maker for every car accident.

hockey13

Don't buy a 9mm. I once shot a woodchuck with a 9mm 3x and it still went 9 more yards bafore it croaked...all solid boty shots at less than 15 ft. If you want protection quick and stopping sorry pal cheep amo of a 9mm ain't it. Sure a .22 will kill you but do it fast at night when your scared shitless...good luck same goes for a 9mm.If you have your life or family on the line get a 12ga. with wide swatting choke and alot of #6 or smaller shot size to cut down on wall penitration or if you want them not to shoot back at you with a handgun get a .45acp. Try it on a woodchuck!

mvand

Thanks for all the input! I wasn't sure what I was getting into with that first post, but I appreciate the responses. Hockey, I like the idea of the 12 ga. The 9mm would be more for fun, and I'd grab the .357 first if it came to a home defense issue (providing there was time...). I have fired only a few rounds from two semi-autos: a Glock (first handgun ever for me), not sure of model, which I didn't like....didn't seem to fit. The other was 5 rounds from a friend's Colt Gold Cup...which I did like. Unfortunately, cost will be an issue for me, but it looks like I have several good guns to choose from...now I start touching a few... :-)