In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
Were We Conned?? (C&P)
HAIRY
Member Posts: 23,606
http://www.wrmea.com/archives/Jan_Feb_2004/0401010.html
It was a bit stunning, therefore, to read an article in Strategic
Assessment, the quarterly bulletin issued by the Jaffee Center for
Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University. The report, titled "The
War in Iraq: An Intelligence Failure?" was written by Shlomo Brom, a
brigadier general in the Israeli army reserves, and said what no one
seems to have dared publish since President George W. Bush decided to
wage war on Iraq. Shockingly, it told the full truth about the
American and British intelligence "sources" making the case
for war.
In fact, according to Brom, these sources were utterly compromised by
Israeli intelligence, which made the case for starting the war and
kept it going as long as necessary. The retired general described
Israel as a "full partner" in U.S. and British intelligence
failures that exaggerated Iraqi President Saddam Hussain's nuclear,
chemical and biological weapons programs in the lead up to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.
Israeli intelligence sources and political leaders provided "an
exaggerated assessment of Iraqi capabilities," raising "the
possibility that the intelligence had been manipulated," wrote
Brom, former deputy chief of planning for the Israeli army.
Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain.
It was a bit stunning, therefore, to read an article in Strategic
Assessment, the quarterly bulletin issued by the Jaffee Center for
Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University. The report, titled "The
War in Iraq: An Intelligence Failure?" was written by Shlomo Brom, a
brigadier general in the Israeli army reserves, and said what no one
seems to have dared publish since President George W. Bush decided to
wage war on Iraq. Shockingly, it told the full truth about the
American and British intelligence "sources" making the case
for war.
In fact, according to Brom, these sources were utterly compromised by
Israeli intelligence, which made the case for starting the war and
kept it going as long as necessary. The retired general described
Israel as a "full partner" in U.S. and British intelligence
failures that exaggerated Iraqi President Saddam Hussain's nuclear,
chemical and biological weapons programs in the lead up to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.
Israeli intelligence sources and political leaders provided "an
exaggerated assessment of Iraqi capabilities," raising "the
possibility that the intelligence had been manipulated," wrote
Brom, former deputy chief of planning for the Israeli army.
Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain.
Comments
I haven't been following this very closely as the WMD issue means squat to me. If we found WMD then the Bush 'haters' would just start dogging him on some other issue.
However, if Israel pumped us misleading information intentionally then then they need to NOT get their $allowance$ for 5 years or so.(atleast)
IMHO,,,the people of Iraq and the world are much better off with Saddam out of power and his sons dead!
Take care, Hairy[:)]!
,,,sod
No Constitutional authority at all.
You are indeed right..its Not about WMD...
One doesn't need to follow the WMDS debate very closely to realize that the attack on IRAQ was completely out of bounds.
No Constitutional authority at all.
The constitution? Ahh come on. SO what if it was unconstitutional, that pesky document is just a barrier that gets in the way when the government wants to do such wonderful things.
The war was unconstitutional? That darn thing always prohibits the government from doing the right thing-and the right thing was going to war, because George Bush said it was the right thing.
"Waiting tables is what you know, making cheese is what I know-lets stick with what we know!"
-Jimmy the cheese man
Hairy,,
I haven't been following this very closely as the WMD issue means squat to me.
And why should it-I mean, the war resolution stated that WMDs were the reason they were giving Bush the authority to go to war.
But why let pesky things like the rule of law get in the way.
"Waiting tables is what you know, making cheese is what I know-lets stick with what we know!"
-Jimmy the cheese man
Why do we continue with this? Please clear some things up and leave partisan politics aside for a few moments...
1. Did Saddam ever display or use WMD's?
2. Did Saddam ever take offensive actions against a neighboring state?
3. Did Saddam ever use terror as an instrument to maintain power?
4. Did Saddam ever threaten the use of force against the US or its
allies?
5. Did Saddam allow free inspections to verify that there were no
WMD's remaining in his inventory?
6. Did Saddam ever lie to the world?
After you answer the above questions, please favor me with an answer to these questions...
1. Would you have chosen to make your home in Iraq with Saddam at the
helm?
2. Perhaps you might have enjoyed the weather in northern Iraq with
Kurds. Would you have felt confident that Saddam would never have
gassed you? Bombed you? Starved you? Tortured you?
3. Would you have felt completely safe in any country surrounding Iraq
that was within SCUD range of Saddam's forces?
4. Could you be certain that Saddam wasn't developing more potent
weapons?
5. Could you be certain that Saddam didn't have WMD's?
6. Do you have any basis in history or fact as to why Saddam wouldn't
bring anything he could against us?
For myself, I'd have to honestly answer all these questions with a resounding NO! I'd also point out that a threat made by the governor of the Falkland Islands against the US could be taken without much worry, but the threat of a country with the potential of Iraq is quite another problem.
Before I end my reply to you, please allow me to relate a life experience I had that applies to my thoughts and our evident disagreement on this subject.
I had a business partner who was going through tough times some years ago. There was alcohol, an uncertainty about the future, middle age, and probably a number of other things going on in his life. I went to his home for a reason I've long forgotten, but what I've never forgotten was the .45 ACP poked into my middle. I was shocked and in total disbelief for a moment as he pulled the trigger... On a replica pistol.
That moment has gone through my mind so many times over the years. It taught me a great lesson in life... Namely that I will never allow such a thing to happen again! Instead of being frozen in disbelief, I should have attempted to render my partner lifeless on the spot. The mere fact that he pointed such a thing at me would have justified a deadly reaction. I should have taken that action... He did it to himself a few months later with the real thing.
Hairy, put Bush aside for a few fleeting moments. Hate him all you want, but ask whether the world isn't better without Saddam. Give someone the credit for having the stones to act before it was too late.
Now... After you've honestly replied to my remarks, go back and bash 'ol George all you want. He's far from perfect, but he's better than the slime we had before.
As far as I know, my life before the invasion of Iraq was reading the reports of our aircraft bombing Iraq's missile defenses in the "no fly" zone. My life today after the invasion is reading the casuality lists, seeing the budget go out of sight, witnessing the scramble for the administration and the Brits to find the "reason" intell was wrong; etc. The world is not safer as a result of our invasion--we have opened a Pandora's box.
Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain.
Subject: Weapons of Mass Destruction
PLEASE PASS THIS ON TO YOUR ENTIRE E-MAIL LIST.
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times
since 1983." S
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998
"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S.
Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001
"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002
"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing
weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002
"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002
"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002
"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002
"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" Rep.
- Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members .. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002
"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is is calculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003
SO NOW THE DEMOCRATS SAY PRESIDENT BUSH LIED, THAT THERE NEVER WERE ANY WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND HE TOOK US TO WAR FOR HIS OIL BUDDIES???
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM....................
"It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others"
(we have been lied to for a long time apperently.---mike)
Subject: Weapons of Mass Destruction
PLEASE PASS THIS ON TO YOUR ENTIRE E-MAIL LIST.
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times
since 1983." S
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998
"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S.
Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001
"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002
"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing
weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002
"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002
"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002
"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002
"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" Rep.
- Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members .. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002
"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is is calculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003
SO NOW THE DEMOCRATS SAY PRESIDENT BUSH LIED, THAT THERE NEVER WERE ANY WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND HE TOOK US TO WAR FOR HIS OIL BUDDIES???
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM....................
You know Republicans have hit rock bottom when they start using quotes and actions of Clinton, and other democrats, to defend themselves.
"Im not lying!! Bill Clinton said it was true, so it must be true."[:o)]
"Waiting tables is what you know, making cheese is what I know-lets stick with what we know!"
-Jimmy the cheese man
"It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others"
quote:Originally posted by sodbuster
Hairy,,
I haven't been following this very closely as the WMD issue means squat to me.
And why should it-I mean, the war resolution stated that WMDs were the(ONLY?) reason(S) they were giving Bush the authority to go to war.
But why let pesky things like the rule of law get in the way.
"Waiting tables is what you know, making cheese is what I know-lets stick with what we know!"
-Jimmy the cheese man
Do I sense a tone of satire there salzo???[;)]
Again,,IMHO the ENTIRE World is better off with Saddam out of power.
,,,[:)]sod
3 reasons, the most attention dealing with WMDs.
#2-Harboring 9-11 terrorists(a bust).
#3- To oust Saddam and set up a democratic government(a 1/2 a bust)
"Waiting tables is what you know, making cheese is what I know-lets stick with what we know!"
-Jimmy the cheese man
Sodbuster- Have you read the resolution.
3 reasons, the most attention dealing with WMDs.
#2-Harboring 9-11 terrorists(a bust).
#3- To oust Saddam and set up a democratic government(a 1/2 a bust)
"Waiting tables is what you know, making cheese is what I know-lets stick with what we know!"
-Jimmy the cheese man
If ya think a fox is in inside your henhouse a killing your chickens,
however, you enter only to find a snake,,you still kill the snake.
I won't argue that misinformation led those in the Democratic Party to support the war. I don't believe that this was an intentional lie.
I believe that our (yes, yours and mine[;)]) President presentated the facts as were reported to him.
In the past, I have been annoyed by those that have the WMD-noids and feel that we have no business freeing an enslaved country of a murderous dictator. But, my hope is, that the end result, (of all the ruckus surrounding WMD's), will be a government that will take international terrorism more seriously in the future. Hopefully we will set new standards on the collection of information concerning these threats.
Salzo,,,surely you feel even if we entered this war wrong,,,that it is in our best interest to finish the war RIGHT!
We must complete the mission soon. The Iraqis must participate in the fight for freedom in order to appreciate it.
,,,sod