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Why Is It? (Part 2)

BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
edited August 2002 in General Discussion
1)That Heckler and Koch devotes a large portion of their US website to the G36, but doesnt even mention the G36/7? If it's such a marvelous and noteworthy new weapon, I would think it would be even more amazing and noteworthy when chambered in a man-sized cartridge.

2)That H&K bothers to differentiate between the PDW (and by that I mean the current-generation PDW, not the new one in development) and the MP5K? They look like precisely the same weapon to me.

3)That I have no idea what the hell a "kiln gun" is?

4)That nobody wants to buy the patent rights to the Pancor Jackhammer when it's frankly an incredibly advanced new design for an auto-shotgun?

5)That in your average package of saltine crackers, it's guaranteed that close to half will be overly browned on one side?

Comments

  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Gordian-Please enlighten someone who knows not what you are talking about. What is the HK elian connection?

    "Sometimes the people have to give up some individual rights for the safety of society."
    -Bill Clinton(MTV interview)
  • competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,696 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Salzo, I think Gordian is referring to the fact that the Feds who "kidnapped" Elian, were carrying MP5's; now when he see's an H&K, he can't help but think of that incident.

    Bullz, I must have missed "Part 1", what/where is this reference to "kiln guns"?
  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A kiln gun is a large gauge industrial shotgun of (I believe) 4 ga.
    for breaking up clinker that has built up, restricting flow in a lime kiln.
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Oh man. That was something.
    Thanks Gordian.

    "Sometimes the people have to give up some individual rights for the safety of society."
    -Bill Clinton(MTV interview)
  • TOOLS1TOOLS1 Member Posts: 6,133
    edited November -1
    Where can I get one of those Kiln Guns? I have been looking for an 8 gauge, But this sounds even better.
    TOOLS
  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    How did this thread turn into one about Elian Gonzalez? I still have questions I need answered!
  • NighthawkNighthawk Member Posts: 12,022 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I dont blame the men that went in but the Attorney General and her team for ordering them to do it.I read in police mag a story from one of the men that went in,they didnt publish his name of course.But I remember him saying he felt like he betrayed his Country,there were no good going to come out of it either way.

    Rugster


    Toujours Pret
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Kind of sounds like "I was jut following orders".
    I remember when that went down, Reno said that the thug never pointed the gun at them. She also aid that the intention was never to shoot anyone, and she offered as proof the fact that the thug did not have his finger on the trigger(I was always tought that you dont put oyour finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot, so this explaination is laughable).
    It is quite scary, that even with the photo, Reno came up with that nonsense. I guess she figured, after 8 years of Clinton saying he did not say something, when we clearly heard it,and there was a record of it, she could get away with saying something did not happen, even though we saw it, and there was a record of it.

    "Sometimes the people have to give up some individual rights for the safety of society."
    -Bill Clinton(MTV interview)
  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sorry, but I was on the other side in this mess. The "family" had a lot of unrealistic ideas about keeping Elian, and the father was still alive in Cuba wanting custody, while Mom was dead. The supposed "hero fisherman" was just a seeker of the limelight, as far as I could tell, and the young woman was getting a lot of bad advice. The video of Elian pounding his little fist and saying he wanted to stay in America looked like what it was to every parent -- a little kid throwing a tantrum when it was time to go home from the party -- and being coached too.

    These LEOs went in and pulled a very clean HRT operation (for a change) that got the job done without bloodshed -- and the rule of law was honored. "The relatives" lost in court, so they were holed up in the house illegally and whining for popular sympathy that they didn't really deserve. Reno, in a rare moment of clarity, defended that photo from those who claimed the team used excessive force by pointing out that the man was well trained and holding the gun in the proper manner -- finger straight out, outside the trigger guard. He was not endangering the clown hiding in the closet with the boy, but if the man had been armed he had a right to defend himself because he was there to rescue the boy, not argue or shoot it out with the relatives. They accomplished their mission with great success.

    I hold the relatives responsible for the boy's being in the tug of war and getting the wits scared out of him. It was the fisherman that ran and hid in a closet when the law came knocking after the court options were exhausted. It was time for Elian to go home.

    Just because this happened under Clinton/Reno's watch does not automatically make it a liberal travesty. In fact, this one was done by the book, and the Cuban Americans were way out of line - in my humble opinion.

    - Life NRA Member
    "If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bullzeye --
    I don't know the answer to any of your questions, but I would like to see that Pancor Jackhammer -- haven't run across a photo yet.

    - Life NRA Member
    "If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
  • Shootist3006Shootist3006 Member Posts: 4,171
    edited November -1
    quote:"The Jackhammer is an automatic, gas-operated, 12 gauge shotgun which uses a pre-loaded rotating cylinder as its magazine. The cylinder has grooves incised on its outer surface which are engaged by a stud on an operating rod, so that as the rod oscillates it rotates the cylinder; it is very similar to the system of cylinder rotation used by the Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver. The Jackhammer barrel floats, and is driven forward by gas pressure after the shot is fired. It is then returned by a spring giving movement to the cylinder operating rod. The significant point about this movement of the barrel is that it disconnects the barrel from the gas-tight connection with the cylinder, allowing the cylinder to be revolved to index the next round, and then, on the return stroke, reseals barrel and cylinder together." (From Jane's Security and CO-IN Equipment 1994-95)

    Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis
  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    I agree with you, offeror.

    It was like the world's most retarded and sickening custody battle. But I really thought the American side did FAR more manipulating and and shameless emotional pandering than the Cubans.

    It was a cut and dried issue for me. The father is staying in Cuba for a reason. Maybe he's a puppet, maybe he actually likes it.

    But it doesnt matter whether he's Communist or Capitalist. You cant arbitrarily rob a father of his parental rights just because you dont like his politics. That idiotic Liberal-influenced "we know better than you do" attitude is what has corrupted and befouled the Family Court and Social Services system.
  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Very nice indeed. A superior "street sweeper" by far. No doubt that's the answer to your question. For the consumer market, better get yours the FIRST WEEK, because they'll have this on the NFA list in no time. In fact, it will probably be an NFA gun before it ever sees a gun store. If not, it will be, like the OA-93, back ordered.

    Since consumers will have trouble getting these, it will live or die on military contracts. I doubt even many police departments will see a need for this, except SWAT.

    Who holds the patent? Is there an American manufacturer? Who makes these, and who buys them?

    - Life NRA Member
    "If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
  • thesupermonkeythesupermonkey Member Posts: 3,905 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bullzeye,
    You enlisted yet?

    Don't worry about the bullet with your name on it, worry about the fragmentation grenade addressed 'To Occupant'.
  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    It's better than the Street Sweeper, because it's it's an automatic shotgun. You hold the trigger down, and it empties the 10-shell rotary magazine in about 2.5 seconds.

    From what I've read, the guy who designed it and built the prototypes did so for the specific purpose of getting it enrolled in the Army CAWS (Close-Assault Weapons System) trials. Then he apparently couldn't for some reason, so now he's broke and trying to sell the prototypes, blueprints, and patent for a measly 25 grand.
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    If you were in a concentration camp, and your child escaped and was in the custody of friendlies, would you insist that the child be returned to the concentration camp, because that is where his father is?
    Cuba is a prison-Castro is a murderer.
    I would think, that anyone who loves their children, and was in the same situation, they would want their child to have a chance at freedom. If I was a father, living in Cuba, and my child escaped to America, I would want him to stay there-and I would think most parents would feel the same way-even Elians dad. But unfortunately, Elians papa is not allowed to voice his opinion over there in Cuba-cause Fidel would have him murdered. For all practical purposes Elians PApa is not really his Guardian-Fidel is Elians PAPA.
    And as far as the "law" was concerned-the law was on Elians side-until Janet Reno stepped in and "changed" the law.

    "Sometimes the people have to give up some individual rights for the safety of society."
    -Bill Clinton(MTV interview)

    Edited by - salzo on 08/28/2002 15:52:03
  • Larry_KLarry_K Member Posts: 13 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bulzeye,

    For a little info on the 'kiln gun' things, check out:
    http://www.winchester.com/industrial/8_gauge/8_gauge.eye
  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    You know I respect your opinion, Gordian.

    But being biased against one gun type or another is ridiculous. I got into this very same discussion with 7mm nut over the AK-47.

    It's like when a little kid barks his shin on the coffee table, he turns around and kicks the table in anger. Like the table somehow purposely barked the kid's shin. You cant go around imbuing inanimate objects with dastardly and evil characteristics. That's how the likes of Sarah Brady, Chuck Schumer and the anti-gun lobby operate.

    I guarantee you every type of gun that has ever existed has been used in a crime at one point or another. If you wanted to go based totally on past-transgressions or bad images, you could probably eliminate any weapon ever made by Germany, Russia, Austria, Italy, Switzerlan, Belgium and Israel. How many banks have been held up with Remington 870s or Smith and Wesson .38 Snubbies? How many innocent civilians, and police officers were killed by gangsters with Thompson Submachine guns in the 1920s?

    Bottom Line: Guns kill, and are built to kill. Every one of them. It doesnt matter in the slightest what it looks like, or where it comes from, or who designed it, or which police force or country just happens to specifically use it. If you cant rise above that, then you may as well turn your telescreen up nice and loud and start bleating and eating clover.

    And by the way, if the BATF G-Men come for you, you'll be just as dead if they shoot you with single-shot .22s as you'll be if they do it with H&K MP5s. But lets hope you take a few of them with you, eh?
  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The MP5 displaced the Uzi carbine as the most favored submachine gun we have. It's a very good gun with a very good functional system. If you don't like it, I'd say the Uzi is the next best thing. Of course, HK also makes a nice civilian semi-auto carbine in .45 caliber, but it may look too much like the MP5 for your taste.

    - Life NRA Member
    "If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    Depends on whether you mean the Uzi, the Mini-Uzi, or the Micro-Uzi.
  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    quote:
    For close in, SPECTRE....safer-faster-better. A real sub-gun!!


    World's only double-action subgun. A real nice piece of work.
  • thesupermonkeythesupermonkey Member Posts: 3,905 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    You ignoring my question?

    Don't worry about the bullet with your name on it, worry about the fragmentation grenade addressed 'To Occupant'.
  • vol fanvol fan Member Posts: 301 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Is this conversation really schitzophrenic, or have I finally lost it altogether?????

    ______________________

    Proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy
  • humpenfenderhumpenfender Member Posts: 17 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    S-Monkey:

    I see the bullseye hasn't answered your question.

    I bet he'll volunter to hold your coat.

    yellowbellys suck!



    Help stamp out and eradicate superfluous, unnecessary, repetitive redundancy.
  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    quote:
    S-Monkey:

    I see the bullseye hasn't answered your question.

    I bet he'll volunter to hold your coat.

    yellowbellys suck!

    Apparently a guy isnt allowed to miss a post and take a day off to go help my father work on his fixer-upper in Norwich without getting called a yellowbelly....whoever you are, you can stick it up your *. I just read about E. Williams and I'm not in the mood to deal with the likes of you right now.

    Monkey, I was scheduled to go to MEPS Thursday the 15th but my recruiter went on emergency family leave and I couldn't get ahold of him until Monday of this week. He rescheduled me to go back next Wednesday. That is to say, I stay overnight in the hotel on Tuesday and hit the floor at MEPS on Wednesday at 0500. I'm going to ask them to ship me out ASAP. I'm tired of waiting around.
  • humpenfenderhumpenfender Member Posts: 17 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Im still betting on the coat thing.

    and it was 2 days not 1 and he asked you twice and you posted five times that day. I still say you ignord it.

    you couldn't tell the truth if it fell out every time you unzipped.

    Help stamp out and eradicate superfluous, unnecessary, repetitive redundancy.
  • Warpig883Warpig883 Member Posts: 6,459
    edited November -1
    moc.murofsmraerifeht.www
  • Warpig883Warpig883 Member Posts: 6,459
    edited November -1
    quote:Only cops and military could legally have it and this would raise such a firestorm of controversy that nobody will issue it






    hmmmmmmm tell that to all my friends who are class 3 dealers/owners. It is easy and lawfull to own a fully automatic weapon. All you have to do is pay the BATF tax and buy one.

    moc.murofsmraerifeht.www
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Member Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Since Carter was in office, if they make the beach from Cuba they are leagle, unless Reno is around.

    Those people who see nothing but grey areas, no black and white, are lost in the fog.
  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    quote:
    you couldn't tell the truth if it fell out every time you unzipped.


    The fact that there's anything there capable of falling out puts me heads and tails over you. My guess is you're the kind of guy who wipes from the front.
  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    quote:
    Who would buy it? Only cops and military could legally have it and this would raise such a firestorm of controversy that nobody will issue it.

    Many police forces and paramilitary SWAT teams worldwide use the SPAS-12 and SPAS-15, both of which are capable of full auto fire.

    My question was, when the design is so revolutionary and clearly has excellent uses (as a room-clearer in indoor environments for instance), why has no one expressed interest in paying the meager patent cost and putting it into a trial production?
  • thesupermonkeythesupermonkey Member Posts: 3,905 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bullzeye,
    The reason I was asking is to see where you'd be station for basic and when. I'm shipping out October 30th for Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri. Hoping they'll send you there too so we can both give 'em hell!

    Ps. I wasn't insinuating you were yellow. You're gonna love MEPS! (evil laughter)

    Oh yeah, how did you do on your *-*?

    Private Monkey


    Don't worry about the bullet with your name on it, worry about the fragmentation grenade addressed 'To Occupant'.
  • Warpig883Warpig883 Member Posts: 6,459
    edited November -1
    Saxonpig

    now that I will agree with

    moc.murofsmraerifeht.www
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Saxon- I have a student whose father came to America on a Banana boat. I remember him coming to my home after Elian was sent back to Cuba. He was infuriated that Reno sent him back. As Varmithunter said, there is special circumstances for Cubans immigrating to this country.The law specifically says that a Cuban who gets to this country, can stay in this country. The law makes no provisions about whether or not a parent in Cuba can demand the child be sent back home. Reno decided he should be returned, without benefit of law.
    I asked my Cuban friend why he thought Elain should stay-he said because Cuba is a concentration camp. He said that if a child escapes a concentration camp, people would not suggest that he be returned so that he can be with his father. You mentioned "parental rights". Unfortunately, there is no such thing as parental rights in Cuba. My Cuban friend said that there was no doubt in his mind that Elians father was praying that the boy would not be returned, and that ANYONE who lived in Cuba would feel the same way. Sure the father was saying that he wanted the boy back-but one has to remember that Elians dad was a servant of Castro(as are all Cubans), and was unable to voice his own opinion-he does not have that right. He said that ANY father in Cuba would want his child to stay in the United States if his child got here.
    My grandfather came to this country from Sicily when he was 11 years old. No parents, only his older brother, who was 13. They loved their parents, and their parents loved them, but their parents insisted,forced their two sons to get on that boat. There life was dirt farming and paying money to the mafia. They knew that it would be ridiculously difficult for an 11 year old boy to go to a new country, with no one to help him-but they also knew that it would be better for him in the states than in Sicily.
    It is difficult for americans to put things in perspective when it comes to how others live, and what their situations are. We see things through American colored glasses, and associate life everywhere with life in the USA. If Elians father cared at all for Elian, he would want him to stay in the USA. Unfortunately for Elian and his father, he had no say in the matter.

    "Sometimes the people have to give up some individual rights for the safety of society."
    -Bill Clinton(MTV interview)
  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Does any realize how many times the subject of this thread changed?

    Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
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