In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
Options
More on hunting deer with a .223
Rafter-S
Member Posts: 2,173 ✭✭✭✭✭
I would like to present the following stats for the less experienced hunters we have reading this post, and who have been reading the other post on deer hunting with a .223:
Item 1. 62 grain .223 bullet with muzzle velocity of 2,900 fps, and ballistic coefficient of .307 = 923 foot-pounds of energy at 100 yards.
Item 2. 180 grain .308 bullet with muzzle velocity of 2,600 fps, and ballistic coefficient of .540 = 2,371 foot-pounds of energy at 100 yards.
Formula used: energy (in foot-pounds) = velocity squared divided by 450,400 times the bullet weight (in grains) as taken from the Speer Reloading Manual.
In the realm of ballistics, energy, more specifically, kinetic energy, is defined as "the ability to do work."
Now this is not to say that a .223 won't kill a deer. And that a 30-06 in ideal shooting conditions could be considered overkill. I will be the first to admit both of those statements. But seldom are conditions ideal.
Consider this scenario: It's deer season and you are out hunting. You suddenly see the "deer-of-a-lifetime" standing 150 yards away in the edge of a cedar thicket--old mossy horns himself--standing at an awkward angle with his rump turned slightly towards you. He has you spotted and at any moment could bolt and be out of sight. And you are out in the open with nothing to rest your rifle on so your shot will be offhand.
I have to ask: Would you rather have a .223 in your hands, or a 30-06 that can deliver 2-1/2 times more energy? And don't sit there and say you wouldn't take the shot.
Item 1. 62 grain .223 bullet with muzzle velocity of 2,900 fps, and ballistic coefficient of .307 = 923 foot-pounds of energy at 100 yards.
Item 2. 180 grain .308 bullet with muzzle velocity of 2,600 fps, and ballistic coefficient of .540 = 2,371 foot-pounds of energy at 100 yards.
Formula used: energy (in foot-pounds) = velocity squared divided by 450,400 times the bullet weight (in grains) as taken from the Speer Reloading Manual.
In the realm of ballistics, energy, more specifically, kinetic energy, is defined as "the ability to do work."
Now this is not to say that a .223 won't kill a deer. And that a 30-06 in ideal shooting conditions could be considered overkill. I will be the first to admit both of those statements. But seldom are conditions ideal.
Consider this scenario: It's deer season and you are out hunting. You suddenly see the "deer-of-a-lifetime" standing 150 yards away in the edge of a cedar thicket--old mossy horns himself--standing at an awkward angle with his rump turned slightly towards you. He has you spotted and at any moment could bolt and be out of sight. And you are out in the open with nothing to rest your rifle on so your shot will be offhand.
I have to ask: Would you rather have a .223 in your hands, or a 30-06 that can deliver 2-1/2 times more energy? And don't sit there and say you wouldn't take the shot.
Comments
But to answer your question about which gun would I want, at that very moment the '06 just because I may get buck eggy and make a bad shot and will need a gun that makes up for mistakes. I do most of my deer hunting in the open on fields so the chances of having the cannon would be slim.
AlleninAlaska aglore@gci.net
405 grain at 1300 is only 1520 Foot Pounds.
55 grain 22-250 factory load at 3800 is putting out 1764.
AlleninAlaska aglore@gci.net
Admittedly, I was using "average" loads from Speer's manual, which attempt to simulate average factory ammo...and I was using the low velocity tables designed for the old trapdoor rifles, not modern rifles. Would have never thought there would be that much difference in the reloading manual recommendations and factory ammos. I don't have the stats on factory ammo in front of me so I can't carry that part of the discussion any further. (By the way, you still didn't say where you got your numbers--I don't doubt you, but would like to have the link to the data.)
However, we are really deviating from the original question when facing old mossy horns: "Would you rather have a .223 in your hands, or a 30-06 that can deliver 2-1/2 times more energy?"
I respectfully disagree that energy figures are just razzle-dazzle numbers for the uninitiated. I sure hope our less experienced hunters don't take that comment to the bank. Ignoring kinetic energy in ballistics is like ignoring gravity. Energy is one of the primary elements in the transfer of shock and knockdown power. I fully agree that bullet construction and weight is important...mainly because bullet weight is one of the primary sources of ballistics energy.
But if you choose to ignore ballistic energy, then pursuing this discussion with you will go nowhere.
Thanks for your input.
I shot a small 4 point a few years back with a 300Win Mag, it was ugly. Please don't do that, it makes a serious mess.
It has become my purpose in life to comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable. will270win@aol.com ~Secret Select Society Of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets~
There is the old and true saying...use enough gun to do the job when things aren't 100% favorable.. We will all agree that that does not describe the .223. There are other calibers that will do a better job than the .223 . Good candidates are the 6.5x55 swede, 7x57 mauser, .243 win, and the infamous .260 remington. None of these calibers will force you to get the stock surgically removed from your shoulder everytime you pull the trigger. I favor the 6.5 x55 swede myself, however a 30-06 or a .308 are also adequate.
One other thing...energy and bullet weight are not the crucial factors here...bullet placement is where its at.My $.02
swede
WyomingSwede
Edited by - WyomingSwede on 04/14/2002 11:27:25
using a cannelured 55 grain bullet at 3300 fps to make use of the
special effectiveness of the .223 when the velocity at the target exceeds 2850fps.
If I could see 150 yards I'd be using something else. Where I hunt there is 50 yd max vis. The .223 pounds em that that range. Head / neck shots are not uncommon and are my shot of choice. If I ever have the opportunity to hunt whitetail with greater than 100 yard vis. I will tote a .308. I suggest that there is no 'single weapon' to fit all situations.
Learn, think, do.
I certainly agree with Swede and others that bullet placement is very important. I would never dispute that.
Regarding the original scenario I described; my offhand shooting is not what it used to be. There was a time I could keep shots in an 18" circle at that range. Now days, however, the circle has doubled in size. Old mossy horns just might get shot square in the butt. That's when the 180 grain bullet still traveling at about 2400 fps will pay dividends.
P.S. The best buck I ever took was at about 200 yards running straight away from me--I shot him in the butt. The large bullet hung together penetrating deep enough to break the pelvis bone. Out of the approximately 50 deer I've killed in my life, there may have been 10 where I was able to surgically place a bullet. The others were such that conditions didn't allow it--I had to take the shot available. But I'm proud to say I have never lost a wounded deer...had to track a few, but never lost a one (knock on wood). Much of that is because many deer were never shot at. The distance or conditions made taking a shot unwise.
KC