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Made in China ? and the crybabies

Rafter-SRafter-S Member Posts: 2,173 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited July 2002 in General Discussion
In another post there was a lot of complaining about Chinese made junk being sold in this country. Well, I never thought I would buy a Chinese tool and like it, but Walmart sells a large adjustable wrench for $9.97. It's made in China and is smooth as silk. The USA equivalent is over $50. I bought the Walmart wrench to put a trailer hitch on my tractor, with the idea of returning it afterwards because it would not stand the torque. I must have put 150+ pounds of torque on the hitch and surprisingly, the wrench was as tight as could be (I had expected it to fall apart). I went back and bought another wrench just like it so as to have one in my truck. They are so low cost, I may buy a third to keep in the tractor.

I also bought Walmart's large bolt cutters. Again, $9 and some change. The USA equivalent would have been $75. I cut dozens of cattle panels, bolts, nails, wire, etc. They are still razor sharp. My neighbor bought a set of USA made cutters that went dull the first use. They are the cheap junk (you union guys chew on that one)!

The sad point is; not everything made in China is junk. They are beating us at our own game...or maybe I should say; we've laid down on the job for too long and allowed them to beat us. Now we're whining like a bunch of crybabies about it.

When the experts predict the USA will be a third world country by 2050, I'm afraid they may be right.

By the way, my John Deere tractor was made in Germany, my Ford truck was made in Canada, my pistol was made in Austria and my Browning shotgun was made in Japan.

Comments

  • Bushy ARBushy AR Member Posts: 564 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Rafter-s...yes, we love to cry and type on our made in China keyboards,but if American labor is so bad,why are most of the Japanese and German carmakers building cars here? Mercedes and Honda right here in good old Alabama!Alot of Americans working for Glock in Georgia now too.Wonder why that is?

    Little people talk about people,regular people talk about things,and big people talk about ideas.
  • E.WilliamsE.Williams Member Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have had problems with top quality american tools.I had a snapa on wrench which was guarenteed not to break under normal use break while I was putting a alternator on a Chevy Blazer and put a 1/4 inch deep * all the way acros the palm of my hand.I also bought some Kobalt screwdrivers when I first stsarted doing electrical work because everyone had Kleins and I wanted something different to recognize mine better when on site after one day the phillips head was twisted like a fan and the flathead tip broke in half.I have 2 pairs of cheap chinese vice grips that have held up to everthing even when my american vice grips couldnt take it.I even used them o compres the springs on my car when canging my shocks.While there are exceptions to the chinese junk tool market I have caught myself plenty of times cusing a broken chiese scredriver.So there are exceptions but youve got to admit they do import alot of junk.

    Eric S. Williams
  • E.WilliamsE.Williams Member Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I beleive were getting a Hyndaui plant here in Alabama too in the near future.America is too big a market to igore especially with handguns.

    Eric S. Williams
  • 4wheeler4wheeler Member Posts: 3,441
    edited November -1
    I have never gotten any service from china made tools,they will not stand up to day in and day out heavy use,I have the scars to show for it.

    "It was like that when I got here".
  • Rafter-SRafter-S Member Posts: 2,173 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    When foreign companies put assembly plants in the USA, it's because our government has made side-deals with those companies, usually in the form of reduced tariffs. It ain't because we can make the stuff better and at less cost.
  • lurkerlurker Member Posts: 414 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I've had this discussion with my Dad many times, about imported goods.

    Granted, some of the Chinese stuff is terrible, but some of it isn't.

    Think about this: China doesn't market direct to the consumer. The stuff made there is loaded on a Chinese ship, shipped to a US dock, unloaded by US dockworkers, and taken to a US warehouse. There, it's housed until needed, and guarded by US workers, then loaded on a US truck and shipped to a US store, where it's unloaded by US workers, and stocked in the store, and finally sold to us, where the store makes a profit. Every step of the way, someone in the US is being paid for their contribution to the final sale. The ripple effect of the dockworkers, warehousers, loaders, truck drivers, unloaders, etc. helps balance out some of the difference in the trade defecit.

    Now, even the junk out there has US touches all over it. That won't make a junk tool's quality any better, but the stuff that is good --
    at least the US is getting something out of it.
  • interstatepawnllcinterstatepawnllc Member Posts: 9,390
    edited November -1
    Rafter,.... your dead on. Sad but true !!
  • Rafter-SRafter-S Member Posts: 2,173 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    lurker-- To be a strong nation, you have to have manufacturing capability. You have to take raw materials (preferrably your own) and make products from them. That is exactly what we're loosing. We're becoming a nation of service providers. All we seem to be doing is selling hamburgers, renting motel rooms to each other, and hauling and guarding the stuff other people make.

    Now, the meat industry is being taking away from us. Pretty soon, we will be dependent on others to feed ourselves.

    Ever feel like you're getting put over a barrel?
  • guns-n-painthorsesguns-n-painthorses Member Posts: 6,462 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't care if you can make your made in china crap wrench work on your junk John Deere tractor. There will come a time when you need it and it will fail you. Besides, it's not your job to make the wrench, and you don't care if the poor American worker looses his job, because, after all, your the mighty American farmer. The biggest welfare junkie of them all. How long are the rest of us working people gonna have to carry your * before you quit or find a way to support yourselves. Boy did the cattlemen pitch a * when Mcdonalds wanted to import some beef. You guys make me puke. And I don't wan't to hear about staving without the farmer, I have my own land and we can feed ourselves. Besides, we can allways import our food, right? I'm sure you would not mind that, cuz after all, it would be cheaper, right?

    I have went to ewg.org and seen how many farmers in my area are on the welfare plan, maybe you should too.

    www.ewg.org/farm/

    fire away.....




    Got Guns?



    Fire Away.....
  • cowdoccowdoc Member Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    guns-n-painthorses
    you have no Fu%^ing idea what you are talking about... farmwelfare..
    DO YOU KNOW WHO WROTE THE LAST FARM BILL??? CARGIL, ADM, CON AGRA ECT ECT
    I have had my grain stolen from me for the last several years by these big grain buyers because they wrote in the farm bill that if my grain prices fall below a certain price level (example 2.51/bu for wheat)
    the goverment would pay me the difference between what local cash mkt price and 2.51 and i can tell you that 2.51 is below my cost of production anyways. i used to sell wheat in the 3.50-4.00/ range before the last farm bill which on the amount of wheat i produce would easly would make one of my land payments.
    so maybe you better go and read the farm bills before you open your mouth so you know what you are talking about. i bet that you think that
    that we are payed not to produce crops yet dont you i have heard on rush limbaugh recently that he was talking about how farmers are paid not to produce which has not been the case for many many year nows, that tells me that people like that have no fu$%ing idea what they are talking about!
    that ewg crap is the amount of money paid to farmers for having the grain buyers steel their grain from them,which goes right through me right to cargil, adm, con agra ect ect
    also do you know that the first thing the goverment does when a country pisses us off is that we stop shipping food to them that i and other farmers have produced so actually me and the other farmers of this country are the first ones one the front line. did you know that iraq was one of the largest buyer of american wheat when they where our friends, so kiss my *
    i think i'll take a wizz in every semi load of wheat and other grain i haul to to town to sell just for you guns-n-paints
    so if you have a funny tasting slice of bread you can thank me.
    doc

    ps this farming deal is a way bigger deal that you can possibly ever understand

    I dont give my guns without somebody getting hurt!
  • lurkerlurker Member Posts: 414 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Rafter,

    I wasn't siding with the China made stuff, only trying to point out the ripple effect of selling goods in the US made in any foreign country. The guilty parties are the companies that buy from the foreigners in the first place, sell here, and the buyers here that buy the stuff. If we stopped buying, the circle would end.

    But like was said, some of us are cheap, and would continue to buy from places like Homier or Harbor Freight Tools. I'm not picking on them, they have US tools as well, and I buy the US tools from them sometimes.

    I try to use only the American made Craftsman tools, and always try to buy American if possible. We drive Fords.

    I don't have any Norinco weapons, all my guns are US made.

    I agree that our manufacturing jobs are vanishing overseas, and blame the big companies for it - They blame the Unions - who blame the government - who blames the economy. In the mean time, some Chinese worker is in a sweat shop earning $3.00 per day, just like we used to in the 1920's just to keep us in cheap tools.

    I do wonder, however - how the countries that import our stuff talk about us ! We're taking jobs from them, they're becoming service societies, etc. and each thing they buy from us supports America.

    Trade is a natural evolution, and has been done forever. Balanced trade isn't possible in this day and time with any country, our side or theirs.

    It will be interesting to see how it all ends up.

    Until then, I will keep buying American whenever possible.
  • LowriderLowrider Member Posts: 6,587
    edited November -1
    What was the brand name of the American-made bolt cutters your friend bought? The ones that went tits-up after cutting one bolt? Very hard for me to believe that story.

    I own a pair of Ridgid bolt cutters, had 'em for 10 years, use them all the time and have never replaced the jaws. Ditto for a pair of Klein cutters we have at work. The good American cutters have replaceable jaws, the cheap foreign stuff are throw-away tools. Nothing I hate worse than cheap junk tools. Won't buy them, won't even use them. With tools, more than with any other consumer product, you damn sure get what you pay for.

    Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.
  • daddodaddo Member Posts: 3,408
    edited November -1
    Went out to my truck and took a look and was suprised to find- 80% of my tools come from China and have no problems with any of them.
  • sjc1sjc1 Member Posts: 130
    edited November -1
    cowdoc is correct. These farm bills only help the large corporations and the little guy takes the hit.
    For those of you that buy goods in China, you can make any statements you want to attempt to justify your actions but in the long run you are the individuals that are selling this country "down the river".
  • guns-n-painthorsesguns-n-painthorses Member Posts: 6,462 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Tell you what Cowdoc, If I am so full of sh#t, Then tell me why every damn farmer around me gets a check from the goverment every year. The guy to the north of me has 4 farms, 4 houses (one two years old), two new combines, a new John Deere tractor,a new pickup, a semi and trailer, etc. Yet over the last 4 years he has managed to suck $85,000.00 from taxpayers like me.
    What, you the only guy who gets screwed by imports? Bulls#$t! I used to get $127.00 a ton for scrap rail from our local yard. Now it's down for the forth year and the best we can get is $58.00 per ton. The only difference between farmer and me is I don't have the goverment tit to keep me going. Instead, we don't buy new trucks or equipment, we lay off help, and we cut back on living expenses. If you can't make it farming, get out! Quit! Sell your land and get a job that you can support yourself with. Oh wait, your a farmer and you have the right to be a farmer weather you can make it or not. Stealing your grain,,, please! Overproduction!
    Find something else to do. Say, I have to pay $2.59 a bushell for oats around here... seems like you should see some oats growing around here. Don't tell me I'm full of shi#!
    There ain't no goverment money on this farm, and that's the way it's staying.
    Hey, if I can't make it selling scrap, I have to do something else. I suggest you do the same.


    Got Guns?
  • Rafter-SRafter-S Member Posts: 2,173 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Three fundamental things a nation needs in order to be a superpower are:

    1. Manufacturing capability
    2. It's own energy supply (oil)
    3. The ability to feed itself

    You can't depend on other nations for any of these and remain a superpower. 50 years ago we had all three. Today, they are slowly slipping away.

    Boycotting other nations who are taking these away from us won't solve anything. That's a Democrat tactic that doesn't address the problem--it only ignores it.
  • cowdoccowdoc Member Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    dont have very much new iron here in fact all but one tractor have over ten thousand hrs on them and most of then are late 70's early 80's models and are all John Deere, have one nearly wore out 7720 jd combine that harvest about 2000 acres a year, do have one fairly new tractor here(traded a tractor that 19,000 hrs off on it) other than that i run everybody elses wore out junk that is why i am able to stay farming plus we run 500 beef cattle dont get no gov check for the cattle
    i dont know your ag back ground but i can tell you that $85,000 doesnt go very far on a farm that has any size to it, the two new combines you mention would cost about $320,000 with out the heads.
    we have to borrow right at $400,000 to operate our farm and ranch here
    so the 75,000 i collected from the gov in ldps for my crops is just a drop in the bucket. when we are in full throtle planting here we spend about 25,000 a day for seed fertilizer chemicals ect ect.
    if crop prices were above loan rate your neighbor wouldnt have collected the 85g's or the 75g's that i collected as i and your neighbor would have gotten a lot more than that in real crop price if the crop price was where it should be!
    you mention over production roflmao we havent raised a winter wheat crop two years(in the usa) in a row now and wheat reserves are at thirty year lows now and wheat is just now getting to 3.00 cash.
    the $ figures that are involved in production ag would baffle you mind
    the nine or ten billion (and that includes money for the foods stamps that people who dont work get money for food in the farm bill) is a drop in the bucket to the total value of agriculture to this country.
    by the way how much fed income tax do you pay on avge?? i mean income tax not social security tax.
    how much money did the gov give to the air lines after 9/11? dont hear you complaining about that. just about every industry in this country gets tax money one way or another just that agriculure gets the public attn.
    by the way i produce enough food to feed over three hundred people/year on this rock, how many do you feed?
    doc

    I dont give my guns without somebody getting hurt!
  • Rafter-SRafter-S Member Posts: 2,173 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well stated, cowdoc. I agree with you completely. But don't let the crybabies divert attention by bitching about farming and ranching--obviously a subject they know nothing about. Few folks realize that the cost of groceries in the USA, as a percentage of income, is the lowest in the world. This is mainly because of the hard working, efficient US farmers.

    Those who * about buying Made in China tools don't mind putting Arabian hydrocarbons in their cars.
  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    This is some of the same isolationist chest-beating nonsense I hate so very much.

    "We're the best, USA made rocks, and everything else is crap junk stamped from rusty tin cans and made by some dumb Oriental in a pointed hat"

    I own two Norinco products: an SKS and a Remington-870 clone shotgun.

    I am not disputing that certain SPECIFIC models of guns produced in SPECIFIC locations have a history of being low-quality. But that is NO reason to dismiss all of them as garbage.

    My Norinco shotgun is, as best I can tell, completely identical to a Remington 870 Wingmaster in design and materials. But it cost me $175, whereas an actual Wingmaster (stamped with that big ol' MADE IN THE USA logo) would have easily cost me $500+

    There's a big wide world out there, people, and despite what you may have been led to believe, the US is not known for producing the best firearms in the world. Countries like Germany, Belgium, England, and Russia have been in the business a LOT longer than we have.

    I'm not here to knock American gun-makers. But if you want to sit there and be Joe Xenophobe Isolationist, you'd better get your facts straight, and stop typing on that Japanese made computer, or driving that American-made car that's filled with Chinese machine-parts, or listening to that stereo that's filled with Taiwanese electronics.

    Or drinking that German/Dutch/Mexican/English/Australian/Canadian beer....
  • 4GodandCountry4GodandCountry Member Posts: 3,968
    edited November -1
    Free world trade is destroying America. Every year more and more jobs leave our shores to go to foreign countries with little or no environmental standards, cheap wages and no safety or labor laws. Sure its a good feeling to buy something at a minimal expense, but at what price? Do we really think this is helping our country? How does it effect us? Can our nation survive as a giant retail outlet? Quite simply, no. What we are experiencing is the destruction of the middle class in our society. Our so called elected officials have sold us out to big interests and big buisness. The Big Corporations are increasing their profit margins at the expense of our country. The US trade deficit is at an all time high, we are being seduced with cheap products at the expense of our brothers and sisters lives and their families well being. Allowing this to continue is not only selfish, but foolish as well, because it may be your job on the chopping block one day. In order to keep Americans working we must make the playing field level. We must raise the terrifs on imported goods to a level that makes it more attractive for buisnesses to come into the country and produce here rather than go elsewhere. An added bonus to buying chinese is the fact that the chinese government takes the profits of their cheap products and spends an unprecidented amount of that money on its military machine.

    When Clinton left office they gave him a 21 gun salute. Its a damn shame they all missed....
  • whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    4G&C:

    We are a capitalist society, period. The market will drive production and price and if we can't produce at a price that will give us the sale then the sale goes to the guy who can, simple. Fair enough that we slap tariffs on dumpers but something produced legally somewhere else is fair competition. We can't have it both ways.

    We are still the strongest nation, in every sense, on the face of the earth and that isn't going to change any time soon.

    Clouder..
  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    Well call me a Commie-loving pinko * if you want, but I for one refuse to stuff the pockets of the Remington company (FOR EXAMPLE) to buy a shotgun which I can get for much less (at the same quality)from Norinco.

    This is simple economics. If a good or service can be imported for less money than an American good or service of comprable quality, any economist out there will tell you to import.

    This doesnt matter nearly as much as it used to, but still there are companies in the US right now who use that big fat rubber-stamp MADE IN THE USA logo to jack up prices on mediocre, middle-quality goods. And if you insist on buying it just because it's got that stamp on it, you're the one who's getting the wool pulled over your eyes.

    Besides, these days even the manufacturers who pride themselves on USA made products are using imported goods and production methods, simply because it's good economic sense.
  • IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    There are multiple causes of our decline as a manufacturing giant. Environmental restrictions on producers, comparatively expensive labor costs, obsolete labor agreements (look at what is left of our railroads v. the rest of the world! Widespread reliable mass transit would have so many benefits . . . too many corporate / labor pork barrels would be drained, though), corporate greed (is any CEO really worth umpty-ump million bucks?!), grossly excessive regulation of industry . . . . Many influences all seeking their own short term goals at the expense of others. Clouder is right - it's a market economy. If CEO Smith and union member Jones are looking out for themselves and screw the consumer, than Joe Consumer has no reason not to have the reciprocal attitude and buy the best value even if it cuts into the stock bonuses and overtime payments. I try very hard to buy US goods, but I don't feel terribly guilty if I buy a better value (calculating both price and quality) if it was produced elsewhere. Wall Street, Big Brother in DC and unions all share some of the blame . . . and the result is not pretty.
  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I can't leave this alone no more, time to stir up some emotions and make some people mad, The unions are where you need to look.

    Unions have alot to do with the state of our manufacturing econmy. When you have broom pushers making $18 an hour and drawing full benifits, then the others getting greedy and demanding top $ for a minimal job, boss man goes broke and has to either move out of country or sell out to the other countries. Union greed has spelled doom many times over here in this country, the unions wrecked themselves then complain because the chinks do the same job for pennies on the dollar. Well Mr. Union Man, if you wasnt so greedy and went on strike and forced you boss out of business maybe you would still have a job!

    How many car manufacturers and steel mill have jumped ship? How many other companies are now in Mexico? Union greed shoved them away, they had to live the high life, they wanted to be better than the Joneses, they had to have that high $ paycheck and drive the fancy cars, they had to organoze and drive the company out of business. How are companies supposed to compete? When the boss has to give all the profits to the union workers he has no choice. Ohh wait I forgot, the owners are not allowed to make money. When the company goes bust the unions say "good for them" but then there are no jobs, so what did you accomplish?
  • MercuryMercury Member Posts: 7,842 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    7mm,
    So why don't prices go DOWN when these companies move overseas? If they want to "be competitive" wouldn't the prices drop?

    When McCulloh went to Mexico, from Tucson, the average wage in Tucson was $8 per hour. When they went to Mexico, the wage was $5 PER DAY!

    Why didn't the chainsaws go down in price? They didn't drop A CENT!

    I'm not buying this "It is the unions fault" crap.

    MOST manuafacturing jobs in this country ARE NOT protected by unions. Very few are any more. :(

    Merc



    NO! You may not have my guns! Now go crawl back into your hole!

    ****************************************

    "Tolerating things you may not necessarily like is part of being free" - Larry Flynt
  • 4GodandCountry4GodandCountry Member Posts: 3,968
    edited November -1
    I am non union, Im pro American, there is a huge difference. Unions had there purpose when there were no labor laws or safety standards but that is not the case anymore. If the chinese had similar environmental standards and labor laws to our own, you would find the price gap would be reduced conciderably. How can any American buisness
    compete with countries that allow slavery, child labor and no environmental or safety standards and no human rights? Did you see any decline in the price of automobiles when they went to Mexico? No, do you know why? Its called "Corporate greeeeed".

    When Clinton left office they gave him a 21 gun salute. Its a damn shame they all missed....
  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The owners of McCulloh are probably now making money.
    quote:MOST manuafacturing jobs in this country ARE NOT protected by unions. Very few are any more

    In my business that is a good thing, the less union companies I have to deal with the better. When I go to a non union whse or factory I notice the workers take more pride in the job they do and are always willing to go the extra mile. When you go to a union place, the workers are only concerned about the time clock, let me rephrase that, 80% of the union workers are like that. There are some who are friendly and actualy care about the job but most of the union workers I have dealt with have big time attitudes and think their caa caa don't stink. Will a union employee go the extra mile, will he do that on his own time? most of the time no they won't.

    I'm sorry if I offended you but my hatred for the unions goes back a long way. Most people only see the end result of union work on the shelves, I and many like me have seen the inside of the unions work and let me tell you this, it sucks. If people actaully saw how the unions get what they want and see past the picket lines into the heart of the unions, they will understand why so many of us HATE unions with a passion.
  • guns-n-painthorsesguns-n-painthorses Member Posts: 6,462 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yes, I know a little about farming. I farmed alongside my uncle in the 80's right up to the day the feds took his farm. If your 75000 in ldp's was such a drop in the bucket, then why did you take it? That's 75000 more that my family got, yet we still scratch out a living. I sell and build railroads. I sell scrap rail. I sold enough scrap to build 1000 new tractors. I have 500 ton of scrap sitting here right now. Too bad for me and my kids there isn't ldp's for scrap iron.
    And as for my rich farmer neighbor, well there must be money in farming after all if his 85000 is just a drop in the bucket also.
  • Rafter-SRafter-S Member Posts: 2,173 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This thread has brought out some diverse opinions on a very fundamental and important issue. Isn't it interesting how we see the same thing from such different perspectives, and yet we all have the same love for freedom...and we all like firearms. Our differences, and willingness to express it, is one of the things that makes our country great. Thanks to all for your inputs and forthrightness.
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