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For SaxonPig's Response
HAIRY
Member Posts: 23,606
Saxonpig: quote:Hairy, I don't know if you hate Jews or the United States or both, but the people you seem so dedicated to defending ARE OUR ENEMIES as decleared by their own words and deeds. Your actions make me wonder about your loyalties.
I am shocked at your posting. I can understand others on the forum posting such comments (and dismiss them as ignorant), but I have had a regard and respect for you.
Given your background, you ought to know, without doubt: A. I do not hate the Jews. B. I do not hate the United States.
Moreover, I am surprised that you would make such a statement that the people I am dedicated to defending (the Palestinians) "are our enemies."
Where and how have you obtained such an idea? From what I have read and understand, the Palestinians look to the United States for succor--and they do not receive it. Despite this rebuff, they continue to base their hopes on the US. Does this make them our enemies? I would appreciate your providing your definition of how the Palestinians are enemies of the United States.
Since it appears appropriate, let me restate my position so you do not misunderstand: To be perfectly clear, my heartfelt desire, as a Jew--albeit not a Zionist--is to see the State of Israel at peace with its neighbors. Is this clear? Is this anti-Israel? Anti-American? Communist? Liberal? Left-wing? Or is it humane and reasonable. Again, please advise me since you accuse me of "disloyalty."
However, I cannot see how the State of Israel can be at peace so long as Sharon "The Butcher of Lebanon" remains in power and carries out the continued building of settlements, the seizure of land via the Zionist Wall, the checkpoints, and the daily humiliation of an oppressed people. Perhaps you, Sir, can enlighten me how these acts will persuade the Palestinians.
Again, I look forward to your clarification and/or amplification your remarks. Thank you.
There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.
Hypocrisy is the homage paid by vice to virtue.
Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain.
I am shocked at your posting. I can understand others on the forum posting such comments (and dismiss them as ignorant), but I have had a regard and respect for you.
Given your background, you ought to know, without doubt: A. I do not hate the Jews. B. I do not hate the United States.
Moreover, I am surprised that you would make such a statement that the people I am dedicated to defending (the Palestinians) "are our enemies."
Where and how have you obtained such an idea? From what I have read and understand, the Palestinians look to the United States for succor--and they do not receive it. Despite this rebuff, they continue to base their hopes on the US. Does this make them our enemies? I would appreciate your providing your definition of how the Palestinians are enemies of the United States.
Since it appears appropriate, let me restate my position so you do not misunderstand: To be perfectly clear, my heartfelt desire, as a Jew--albeit not a Zionist--is to see the State of Israel at peace with its neighbors. Is this clear? Is this anti-Israel? Anti-American? Communist? Liberal? Left-wing? Or is it humane and reasonable. Again, please advise me since you accuse me of "disloyalty."
However, I cannot see how the State of Israel can be at peace so long as Sharon "The Butcher of Lebanon" remains in power and carries out the continued building of settlements, the seizure of land via the Zionist Wall, the checkpoints, and the daily humiliation of an oppressed people. Perhaps you, Sir, can enlighten me how these acts will persuade the Palestinians.
Again, I look forward to your clarification and/or amplification your remarks. Thank you.
There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.
Hypocrisy is the homage paid by vice to virtue.
Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain.
Comments
I think you ought to look in the mirror and see who really is the ignorant one!!! Come down off your soapbox Hairy!!!
Hairy Ignorancy is in the eyes of the beholder!!!
LIFES MOSTLY SCARS AND SOUVENIR'S - Max Stalling
To Ride, shoot straight,and speak the truth
This was the Ancient law of Youth
Old times are past, old times are done:
But the Law runs true, O little son!
"Save the Whalers, they need jobs too."
And I Hairy, do not see how there can be peace in Israel as long as Arafat continues to fail to reign in the suicide bombers, allow the killing of innocent women and children, continue to fail to negotiate in good faith, and support terror. Lest you forget, the "leader" of the Palestenians used to have airliners hijacked on a fairly regular basis. Not exactly a man to trust, if I was in Sharon's shoes I would do the same as he.
However Hairy, I do not question your loyalty to the US, we do however have signifcant differences of opnion on world and US affairs.
JuJu(more than one side to every argument)
Where and how have you obtained such an idea? From what I have read and understand, the Palestinians look to the United States for succor--and they do not receive it.
I'll give those murderous Osama-loving ragheads something to succor [:(!][:(!][:(!]
"If they aren't able to destroy the desire for freedom, they won't break you. They won't break me because the desire for freedom, and the freedom of the Irish people, is in my heart. The day will dawn when all the people of Ireland will have the desire for freedom to show. It is then we'll see the rising of the moon."
-Bobby Sands
You are one of the good ones on here. I enjoy reading your post, but try as I might, I can't see my way to support the Arabs in these matters.
What was it Peter O'Toole as Lawrence of Arabia said about the Arabs?
"A small people, a silly people"
Unfortunately, they have their blood feuds and never seem to forgive and forget.
They would rather make war than co-exist.
This is rather odd don't you think? Gentiles supporting Jews against a Jew? It's pretty odd over there too.
Jews fighting Jews over Palestinians.
There is plenty of land in Arabia. Or can't the Arabs get along and extend a helping hand to their bretheren?
They will figure it out one day.
"Right is Right, even is everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it"
SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com the best gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net
What most people don't seem to understand is that Israel's current repression of the Palestinians isn't a fight for survival. The day the PLO seriously threatens Israel's existence is the day I make a mint selling ice water to Eskimos. Israel is, for all intents and purposes, practicing apartheid... but instead of subjugating blacks, it's Arbas.
That having been said, the Palestinians are no angels, either. Unable to accept that they've been beaten in every single war they've fought, they resort to cowardly terrorist attacks on civilians.
At this point, having read what I've read and having heard what I've heard, I can't say I support one side's cause over the other's.
They're both being incredibly stubborn, shortsighted, violent, and bloodthirsty... Israel simply has more guns, more tanks, more planes, and more missiles.
Don't worry Nunn your in good company!!!![^]
Kids that fish, hunt and trap have never mugged any old ladies!
To Ride, shoot straight,and speak the truth
This was the Ancient law of Youth
Old times are past, old times are done:
But the Law runs true, O little son!
When you take up such a stance, you must expect to be questioned and cross examined, and yes, attacked, as you do yourself.
I have said before, "Stop the bombing" It would be a start.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Many members on this forum disagree with me and I welcome and respect their points of view and opinions; they make their points clearly and without personal attacks or invective. For a good example of what I refer to please see Annie-O's postings--well considered and thoughtful. She and I may disagree, but I respect what she has to say.
I had in mind when using "ignorant" those who do not have a clue on what is happening in the Middle East and particularly Israel and they decide that their particular god is involved here and begin their ramblings with biblical quotes and alleged prayers for me. (Since I am in a Shinto shrine having prayers said to me daily, there is no need for more--all the deities know me well. [;)])
Again, my apologies to those who might have been offended by my choice of words and expressions.
There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.
Hypocrisy is the homage paid by vice to virtue.
Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain.
Kids that fish, hunt and trap have never mugged any old ladies!
To Ride, shoot straight,and speak the truth
This was the Ancient law of Youth
Old times are past, old times are done:
But the Law runs true, O little son!
Those who support the artificial UN sponsored palestinian so called state are against the chosen people who formed the original covenant with God through Moses. Those so called Jews who support the UN pro palestinian cabal have no right to call themselves Jews, but are rather anti semites who masquerade as Jews. The only real Jew is a zionist, anything else is arrogance before God Almighty and they will perish in the battle against UN sponsored global Bolshevism. I can't understand how any Jew can deny the existence of the Israeli state. How can any Jew not be a zionist and deny the will of God in the Torrah? I can't understand this. I am a Christian and know the Torrah better than most so called Jews. I know several Jews and they are die hard zionists. This is why I have no problem calling them Jews. I am a Christian who is a Zionist and a strong defender of the Jewish State. The United States and Israel stand together agains the UN sponsored tyrrany, and we will prevail!
Member: NRA, RFC, John Birch Society.
Hairy's point of view, albeit a differing one from many here, is always kept on civil terms and debates center around points of fact, not personal attacks.
Hairy, I have found your postings educational and reading them have sent me delving into news sources to research the issue. And again I fear lightening strikes, but I must agree with EL M M, I believe both sides are wrong as they continue the fight toward mutual destruction.
Lest we forget, not every citizen of Israel and the Occupied Territories is a militant. If we, as Americans, were viewed by the world solely on what our media reports, we are gun-toting cowboy wannabes, baby killing abortionists, tofu eating PETA members, welfare babies, drug crazed sycophants, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Not everything is what it seems and the emperor is naked.
***KATN!***
Please let me try to respond to your comments.
You said: These people (sic) have declared an undying vow to kill all Jews and destroy Israel. They make good on these promises with suicide attacks that kill children as well as other civilians. They have vowed to attack us (sic) when and where possible, and they have made good on these oaths, as well.
If you will recall, President Bush and the leaders of the Arab World met to decide and agree upon the American "road map". It was yet again publicly stated by the Arabs that Israel had a right to exist and that the Arabs wished to live in peace and were trying to find a way to do so.
As far as I know, the groups that have sworn to retaliate against the Jews and destroy Israel are Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hezbollah--provided that the Palestinians can't get their state and live in peace. I agree that fanatics in these groups would not be satisfied with a Palestinian state and would continue to work to destroy Israel, but these fanatics, like any group of fanatics, are a decided minority. The majority of Palestinians want peace.
I have NO knowledge of any Palestinian group, including Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or Hezbollah vowing to attack the US when and where possible--it seems you have made the mistake of confusing Al Qaeda with the Palestinians. If I'm mistaken on this point, please correct me and provide a source for your information. BTW, the Mossad tried to instigate an incident by recruiting a Palestinian to join an alleged Al Qaeda organization, but it was foiled by the Palestinian Security Apparatus--did you know that?
You also said: Are the Israeli's hands clean? No. But their wrongs against the Palestinians are in response to loathsome attacks and do not approach the level of depravity committed by the Palestinians. (Emphasis added)
First, it is obvious that you, like so many Americans, are oblivious to the almost daily slayings of Palestinians by the Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF). It is further obvious that you are not aware of the almost daily destruction of homes, orchards, livelihood and families committed by the IOF. I try to post what is going on in the occupied terror ties, but apparently it is ignored. One sad thing does stand out, though: the lesser value of life placed on the Palestinians compared to the Israelis. Why is that? Is a Palestinian child less "worthy" than an Israeli child?
When the Palestinians do react to the IOF brutality, then, and only then, does it become newsworthy in the US; otherwise, the IOF killings are not widely reported and remain unknown by the American public. Please ask yourself: Why is this? Who is being manipulated? To what purpose is the manipulation taking place?
You said: The Israelis maintain that meaningful negotiations can take place when the attacks stop. They continue as the Palestinians do not appear interested in a settlement, they will accept nothing less than their stated goal of the death of every Jew.
Do you even remember the cessation of attacks against Israel last year? It was a ceasefire by Hamas in an effort to get negotiations going. Despite the ceasefire, Sharon continued to kill Palestinians, destroy homes, etc., during that period WITHOUT intending to resume negotiations and when the expected retaliation by the Palestinians took place, that was used as the excuse to initiate even greater brutalities and declare that the Palestinians don't want to negotiate!!! Sharon was successful; the Palestinians were blamed (see your own comments!).
You also repeat the canard about the stated goal of the death of every Jew--a repeat of the information put out by Israel in their ongoing victimhood propaganda. I would appreciate a citation of the source for your comment.
I welcome your comments.
There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.
Hypocrisy is the homage paid by vice to virtue.
Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain.
I think, Sir, the correct spelling is Torah. Obviously, you do know it better than many so-called Jews.[;)] BTW, Torah Jews are anti-Zionist and anti-Israel, but you knew that, didn't you? [;)] You obviously also know that Torah Jews believe that Israel can't be established until the Messiah comes, right? [;)] BTW, Torah Jews are still waiting for the Messiah, but you knew that, right?[;)]
I'm quite impressed with your grasp of the subject; thank you for sharing it with all of us. [}:)]
There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.
Hypocrisy is the homage paid by vice to virtue.
Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain.
"Right is Right, even is everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it"
Personally, I believe the lion will lie down with the lamb only after he's eaten him.
throughout the 20th century, immigrants to America who were Orthodox had children who identified with Reform, Conservative, or Reconstructionist Judaism. Reform Judaism is akin to liberal Protestant denominations such as the Episcopal Church or the United Methodists. Reform Jews (about 30 percent of American Judaism) believe that the creation saga and Jewish law should be understood symbolically, that Satan is merely a symbol of selfish desires, and that they should live well and do good in a way defined by contemporary philosophers. Reform Jewish organizations, like liberal Protestant groups, favor abortion and gay marriage on demand.
conservative Jews (about 24 percent) believe the Torah was not God's dictation but was written in response to God's revelation of himself at Mount Sinai, so it's not inerrant. Conservative Jews largely toss aside the Talmud but merge some Jewish customs with modern tendencies, in an attempt to find a middle-of-the-road position between the Orthodox and Reform varieties; Reconstructionists (only 1 percent, but with a strong intellectual following) generally consider Sinai to be mythical or irrelevant, but favor the maintenance of the culture that grew out of belief that Sinai was real.
The Right, Middle and Left ...each section has their own version of whats going on. When you add arabs palestinians and terrorist organizations ... you get a big fat MESS...
[:D][;)]
"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, not liberty to purchase power."
Benjamin Franklin, 1785
If the US had acted in the same way, we'd probably still have the Twin Towers.
God Bless America and...
NEVER Forget WACO
NEVER, EVER Forget 911
Too much agent orange in Nam?
A dead intruder cannot testify against you in a court of law!
If they're still moving, put another round in them!
Your response was thoughtful and patriotic. Obviously, you are not going to convince those who's goal is the complete obliteration of the Judeo-Christian way of life. There are many agents of the UN who have infiltrated numerous discussion forums and their goal is total tyrrany. They often masquerade as scholars and members of academia, but their real goal is our total enslavement. They often select these boards so that they can monitor patriotic Americans.
They come off as scholarly to convince the uneducated populace and vilify Israel. As history has proven, those who challenge the sovereignty of the United States and those who challenge the existence of the State of Israel, end up in the bowels of history., and this is where they belong.
Their behaiviour is similar to satans. They deceive and try to take control. Notice that he ended his statement with satans devil symbol. This is typical of the UN sponsored global Bolshevism. They have a secular and pagan agenda. The devil represents them well.
Member: NRA, RFC, John Birch Society.
Goodness knows I'm looking up to ensure lightening doesn't strike me where I sit, but if you will take a moment to consider, Hairy offers up the other side of the "fair and balanced" viewpoint. I have yet to encounter a posting by Hairy that has ended with him no longer arguing a point and just namecalling to continue a discussion.
Hairy's point of view, albeit a differing one from many here, is always kept on civil terms and debates center around points of fact, not personal attacks.
Hairy, I have found your postings educational and reading them have sent me delving into news sources to research the issue. And again I fear lightening strikes, but I must agree with EL M M, I believe both sides are wrong as they continue the fight toward mutual destruction.
Lest we forget, not every citizen of Israel and the Occupied Territories is a militant. If we, as Americans, were viewed by the world solely on what our media reports, we are gun-toting cowboy wannabes, baby killing abortionists, tofu eating PETA members, welfare babies, drug crazed sycophants, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Not everything is what it seems and the emperor is naked.
***KATN!***
Ah a voice of some reason within a jungle of invective and hate.
I disagree with all of you and don't think any of you think beyond what you are told by the nationalistic propaganda machine
But that's just my opinion, and I don't care what you think of it.
Opinions are like butt holes. We all have one and they all stink!
Just my two cents.
When you wrestle a 'gator, there ain't no good end!!
"Molon Labe!" Spartan General-King Leonidas
INTERESTING
I wish I had the time to get involved in the discussion. When I was over there I saw the Palestinians removing Jewish items from the temple mount and replacing them with 'Arab' fakes. They also gutted one lower level area and installed a mosque where there used to be Jewish artifacts. A few years before that there were cases where the 'P' trash were taking old Jewish grave stones (some hundreds of years old) and using them to line their out-houses. A Minnesota 'P' grocery store sells wall plaques with pictures of burning Synagogues, and Arafat has declared since the beginning of this year that the only satisfaction he will have is when every Jew is dead. That doesn't sound much like a 'peaceful' people to me.
They had control of the land for over 1800 years and all they did with it was destroy. Their Arab 'brothers' don't want anything to do with them. They do nothing but create filth and disease every place they go. They have no desire to make things better, only to destroy Israel. If they somehow managed to destroy every Jew it is very likely that they would simply vanish from the face of the earth, since they have no other reason to live. Every piece of land that has been given 'back' to them has been turned from a wonderful farming habitat into a wasteland.
Remember, these 'P' are the individuals who were dancing in the streets on 9/11, and when the Cole was bombed, and when the Greek Olympics were shot up, and when flight 726(?) went down in the Atlantic, etc, etc.
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It will hurt you, More than it will hurt me..
Life Member..NRA,
American Legion, MECU, MWCA, SMSC, NASDS, IDPA
Thanks for all the help!
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