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Black Talons..... Legal to carry??????
lazywallrus
Member Posts: 119 ✭✭✭
I recently bought a couple of boxes Black talons and ranger ammo on auction. Last night I had the chance to shoot a few into wet phone books and they really open up well with no separation of jacket from the core. I would like to keep them in my pistol that stays in my truck.
I live in New Mexico where its lawful to have a concealed handgun in your means of personal conveyance (auto, motorcycle, horse, donkey, bi-cycle etc.) I searched the NRA website on the gun laws in my state and did not find anything that forbids me from having the ammo. When I took the concealed carry class in michigan before I moved, all the instructor told us was not to carry hand loads, but that new off the shelf ammo is OK.
I guess my question is, if I should ever have to use my gun in self-defense will I be in even more hot water if I have " Ranger Law Enforcement Ammo" in my pistol as opposed to the Hydra-shok or cor-bon that I have been carrying.
If this is a stupid question I apologize, try not to bite my head off to bad. I have looked all over the internet and couldnt find an answer and I really dont like to call the police because it seems like the law varies depending on who you talk to. Thanx in advance.....Lazy
I live in New Mexico where its lawful to have a concealed handgun in your means of personal conveyance (auto, motorcycle, horse, donkey, bi-cycle etc.) I searched the NRA website on the gun laws in my state and did not find anything that forbids me from having the ammo. When I took the concealed carry class in michigan before I moved, all the instructor told us was not to carry hand loads, but that new off the shelf ammo is OK.
I guess my question is, if I should ever have to use my gun in self-defense will I be in even more hot water if I have " Ranger Law Enforcement Ammo" in my pistol as opposed to the Hydra-shok or cor-bon that I have been carrying.
If this is a stupid question I apologize, try not to bite my head off to bad. I have looked all over the internet and couldnt find an answer and I really dont like to call the police because it seems like the law varies depending on who you talk to. Thanx in advance.....Lazy
Comments
Hope this helps,
Boomer
Protect our Constitutional Rights.
They stopped making it voluntarily I believe, because it "looked scary" in media close-ups and was given some bad press by anti-gun people. People thought it would tear up the "victim" unnecessarily and was therefore "cruel." Of course, nobody has ever said that about Glaser Safety slugs or MagSafe which sends shrapnel throughout the body, but hey.... You know those anti-gunners.
The only problem you might conceivably have with it is if you were ever in court defending against a justifiable shooting -- the other side's lawyer could make blow-up photographs of the expanded round and try to make an issue out of your using "cruel, extra-harmful" ammo. I don't say it's justified, I just say that a lawyer COULD try this ploy. They've done it with sillier stuff than that. Personally, for liability's sake I would limit my use of any ammo that was withdrawn because of bad publicity, but you're welcome to carry it if you want to. No law against it.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Black Talons were voluntarily taken off the market not only because of the bleeding hearts in Society but they are so sharp they are known for cutting through three pairs of surgical gloves. In the height of the AIDS epidemic Surgeons were relunctantcautious to remove these from victims. Time is precious during surgery.
Personally, I don't give a damn, I've been carring Black Talons for 12 years and will continue to do so. I recently bought a box of original Black Talons 9mm for $35.00 and thought that was a bargain.
Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
The box I just bought, I will keep as a collectors item unless I use up the first 20 rounds I bought 12 years ago.
I'm not worried about repercussions from using them since they were never banned. I'm willing to bet no one has read that they are illegal from any Law Enforcement Agency.
Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
1. Original - 20rd a box
2. Law Enforcement Only - 50rd a box
3. Ranger - 50rd a box
Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
**I love the smell of Hoppes #9 in the morning**
They don't seek out Vital Organs, but if you get shot in the Torso it's possible for it to lodge in the leg or elsewhere.
Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
Actually, the fragments you describe are far more like MagSafes or Glasers than like Black Talons. They have a heck of a muzzle velocity and those little pieces go inside you and run all over the place. I'm not even sure I want to give surgeons that kind of problem to deal with. I doubt I'd buy them again for any gun bigger than a .380.
It may well be that BT's are now sold as Rangers. Wouldn't surprise me a bit -- a little marketing quick-change. I'll have to look into it further myself. And by the way, $35 a box IS a bargain for BT 9's, from what I've seen at gun shows. Once you buy them, they're too expensive to shoot....~! Heheheh! Honestly, though, they are probably a good collectible item if one is into that sort of thing. Just don't pay too much for the privilege of owning some.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Winchester Black Talon Revisited
There appears to be continuing confusion surrounding the different versions of the Black Talon bullet, its legality for possession by private citizens, as well as its alleged "cop-killer bullet" armor-piercing capability. Here's the lowdown:
Black Talon SXT: The original Black Talon handgun bullet. It was introduced in 1991. The cartridge consists of a black colored bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The black paint-like coating on the bullet is a Winchester proprietary lubricant called Lubalox. The bullet has six serrations on the rim of the hollowpoint cavity (meplat), and six talons. The talons deploy when the bullet expands. They are described by Winchester as: "six uniform, radial jacket petals with perpendicular tips." Winchester voluntarily discontinued sales of Black Talon SXT to the general public in late 1993/early 1994 due to intense negative media and political pressure. Some political activists derisively referred to it as "Black Felon" ammo. Black Talon is packaged in boxes of 20 cartridges.
Ranger SXT: Ranger SXT is a less expensive version of the original Black Talon cartridge intended for the law enforcement market. It consists of a black Lubalox coated bullet seated in a brass case. The bullet has six serrations on its meplat, and six talons. Ranger SXT is packaged in boxes of 50 cartridges marked "Law Enforcement Ammunition."
Supreme SXT: Redesigned "civilian" version of the original Black Talon bullet. The cartridge consists of a copper-jacketed bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The bullet has eight serrations on its meplat, and no talons. Supreme SXT is packaged in boxes of 20 cartridges.
According to Olin-Winchester public relations, the Supreme SXT bullet design has not been factory tested in standard ordnance gelatin because it was not designed to meet police ammunition performance specifications. As a result, there's no valid and verifiable performance data available from Winchester or the FBI.
We find Winchester's attitude troubling because they're marketing a personal defense bullet (a life safety device) in which they confessed to us that they've no idea how well (or poorly) it performs. Therefore, we advise you not to buy and use Supreme SXT until Winchester gets its act together and coughs up performance data for this cartridge.
Ranger Talon: The second generation version of the original Black Talon SXT bullet. The cartridge consists of a copper-jacketed bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The bullet has six serrations on its meplat, and six talons. Ranger Talon is packaged in boxes of 50 cartridges marked "Law Enforcement Ammunition."
There is no Federal law that prohibits a private citizen from purchasing or possessing any of the Black Talon bullet variants. Additionally, there is no Federal law, which forbids private possession and use of "law enforcement" handgun ammunition, except specifically defined armor-piercing handgun ammunition. Black Talon, Ranger SXT and Ranger Talon do not meet the criteria for armor-piercing handgun ammunition as defined by Federal law. However, there may be State or local laws that ban private possession of Black Talon and its variants.
The negative media frenzy of late 1993 produced untrue assertions that Black Talon was an armor-piercing "cop-killer" bullet. We've fired both 9mm and .40 S&W Black Talon bullets into threat level IIA soft body armor and the armor easily stopped the bullets. The "armor-piercing" myth may have originated from the markings used on certain military small-arms ammunition. U.S. military cartridges with a black painted tip indicates the bullet is armor-piercing.
(Federal Nyclad ammunition is often mistaken as armor-piercing ammunition too, due to the blue-black nylon coating on the lead bullet.)
The black Lubalox coating on the Black Talon bullet is meant to reduce in-bore friction and chamber pressure. Once the bullet leaves the muzzle, the mission of the coating is completed. Lubalox does not give the bullet any special property that allows it to blast through police soft body armor.
Recently, the newer Winchester 9mm 127 grain +P+ Ranger SXT bullet (product number RA9SXTP) has been found to penetrate some lower threat level soft body armor. Second Chance Body Armor Company recalled one of its vests in response to officer safety concerns posed by this particular bullet.
Click here to read the Second Chance vest recall press release.
In the latest issue of the International Wound Ballistics Association's journal, Wound Ballistics Review, there's an article written by Duncan MacPherson, "A Body Armor Penetration Rumor," that explains the reason why the RA9SXTP bullet can penetrate some body armor. According to MacPherson, it's not due to any special aspect of the bullet design nor does its performance represent any new dynamics in armor penetration. He says it's due to a minor flaw in the National Institute of Justice (NIJ) body armor certification test protocol:
"There are two principal limitations in [the NIJ] rating system. The first limitation is that all armor with the same rating (e.g., passes level 2A and fails level 2) does not have identical performance; this is obvious (because there is no attempt to, or mechanism, for evaluating intermediate performance), but is often overlooked. The second limitation is that different bullet designs do not necessarily have the same relative efficiency in penetrating the quite different armor designs of different manufacturers; this whole area is not well modeled either analytically or experimentally."
Winchester tightly controls distribution of its RA9SXTP cartridge. When we last checked, Winchester did not permit its distributors to stock this load. It had to be shipped from the factory directly to a law enforcement agency address.
Finally, Winchester also produced and manufactured a line of centerfire rifle ammunition under the Black Talon name, which has since been renamed Fail-Safe. The Black Talon rifle bullet was completely different from the handgun bullet design. It did not expand to deploy talon-like claws. Instead, it had a solid copper nose (similar to a Barnes X-Bullet), with a lead core base encapsulated in a steel liner to prevent jacket rupture upon impact. This bullet had a baked on coating of molybdenum disulfide, which gave it a distinctive black colored appearance also.
Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
muley
**I love the smell of Hoppes #9 in the morning**
Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
SUBMARINE SAILOR,TRUCK DRIVER,RUSTY WALLACE FAN AND AS EVERYONE SO OFTEN POINTS OUT PISS POOR TYPIST
Be my guest. What I post here is strictly public consumption all the way. Not that there's anything special about it.
As for CorBon, I love the stuff. You know, of course, that +p+ ammo is reserved for LEOs, yet somehow Peter Pi manages to wring these velocities out of legal pressure loads in CorBon. It is one of the most effective rounds in every caliber. The only thing I would say about it is I'm a bit more hesitant to shoot it in light-frame guns whose manuals do not recommend the hotter loads. I find it hard to believe that CorBon doesn't stress guns any more than the ammo of other manufacturers running at lower velocities (although CorBon's bullets are generally lighter-weight, comparatively). I do like the idea of that 135-gr. .40 S&W load, though I've been shooting 180s until lately. I guess the 135s are supposedly more effective, when they run at 1100 fps and above. It's just a shame to buy a big caliber and then use a lighter weight slug in it, in a way.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
SURPRISE!!
Charlie
"It's the stuff dreams are made of Angel"NRA Certified Firearms InstructorMember: GOA, RKBA, NJSPBA, NJ area rep for the 2ndAMPD. njretcop@copmail.com
cbxjeffIt's too late for me, save yourself.
SUBMARINE SAILOR,TRUCK DRIVER,RUSTY WALLACE FAN AND AS EVERYONE SO OFTEN POINTS OUT PISS POOR TYPIST e-mail:WNUNLEY@USIT.NET