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Law as it pertains to unlicensed sellers on GB

idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
edited May 2002 in General Discussion
I would like you to take a gander at the following auction:

http://www.forthehunt.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=3872158

This individual is a senior at West Point. He'll be receiving his commission next week. He and his classmates have exclusive access to these "Class of 2002" Bi-centennial West Point commemoratives. If he has no FFL, is it lawful for him to purchase this pistol with the intent of selling it for a profit on GB? Does that constitute an unlicensed firearms dealer?
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Comments

  • duckhunterduckhunter Member Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    NO,
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Interesting. I reported here once that I got a great deal on an SKS and wanted to buy it for the profit potential that it held. I stated that I was going to buy it with the intent to sell here on GB. I got reamed and corrected quickly. It's still with the original owner.

    SSG idsman75, U.S. ARMY
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  • Mr. LoboMr. Lobo Member Posts: 538 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I believe that he will have to purchase the firearm through a FFL and once he finds a buyer he can legally ship the firearm to a FFL holder to complete the transaction.

    Jim
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Maybe I should have purchased that SKS.

    SSG idsman75, U.S. ARMY
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  • He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 51,593 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well Idsman, you did say it is still with the original owner... Is it still for sale?
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  • RockinURockinU Member Posts: 248 ✭
    edited November -1
    I did the opposite, I bought a gun on here, and sold it about 10 days later for a profit ( a guy at the range wanted it more than me)...I've always traded around with my guns to improve my stock, and I don't see anything wrong with it.
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  • HAIRYHAIRY Member Posts: 23,606
    edited November -1
    Sorta seems to me we ain't marrying them there guns!

    It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so!
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  • He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 51,593 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't know Hairy, I have had some of these guns a lot longer than I had that wife!
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  • mballaimballai Member Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think the guy is a fool to part with an item like that. It's an honor to receive such training. I'd save such a treasure to pass on to my children.

    Three Precious Metals: Gold, silver and lead
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I want to know where all the people are that were slamming me. The guy with the SKS is back in Michigan now and I have no idea how to reach him. I gave him a loan against the SKS or he would have spent the night in a Canadian jail. I told him to contact me if and when he wanted it back. He didn't contact me so I contacted him and got it back to him. Actually, I insisted on getting my money back. I was saving up for something a little nicer at the time. Now I wish I would have just kept it. He didn't really want it back anymore. It was an excellent-condition Norinco with a newly installed synthetic stock.

    SSG idsman75, U.S. ARMY
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  • cpermdcpermd Member Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This could be interesting!
    cpermd
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  • ProkoteProkote Member Posts: 82 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hey Ssg.id75. Think of the people that stand in a line for 10+ hours to get a stamp from the post office,they pay 30 some odd cents for it and the second it becomes his,it's worth $1000.00 or so.To everyone else it's a bite in the 4th point,but to the guy that waited in line he earned it. I would seriously regret selling a fine piece as such, if he does sell the pistol,in time he will ache from the mistake he made. Officers are nowhere near perfect,shoot after 5yrs or so,even the freshmeat look'in for the role of skyline can figure that out as well. Point is the puke earned it,the fact he does'nt take it to heart,well thats something sam can't teach you,the home does.

    Shoot straight!
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  • cpermdcpermd Member Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Dang!!
    Would have helped if he had answered some emails.
    cpermd
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I guess I have a little spite in my heart. I emailed the clown and told him that he should reconsider the sale due to the questionability of the ethics and legalities involved. I'm actually downright pissed off. I spent 2 years at the Point and got the boot because I couldn't pass my third semester of Calculus. I can write (when I have a mind to do so) and I do well in classes where term papers are involved and essays comprise the vast majority of all examinations. I just can't due advanced calc. I looked forward to getting that "Class of 1997" Commemorative Colt more than I looked forward to getting that gold ring. My little brother (incredibly athletic and a whole hell of a lot more brilliant that I ever was) is finishing up his 2nd year at West Point next week. I told him that he had better buy that Colt when he is a senior or this NCO would kick his newly-commissioned butt. Actually he is about 4" taller than me and a good 20 lbs heavier than me and has more recent boxing experience than I have. Regardless, I told him he better buy that damn Colt or I would give him the money to buy it for me so that I could present it to him on his date of retirement from the Army. This is one of those guns that should inspire sentiment and pride. If the "men in black" show up at the door one day to confiscate it, you say "f*ck you" and go down in a blaze of glory.

    SSG idsman75, U.S. ARMY

    P.S. The OCS packet is going in right after I am the first NCO to salute my brother at his graduation and get that silver dollar in his pocket.

    Edited by - idsman75 on 05/13/2002 00:00:51
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  • Mitch RosnickMitch Rosnick Member Posts: 1 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Gentleman,
    firstly, I am not a senior, I am a junion. I am a former NCO with nearly 5 years of service prior to West Point, and have a significant firearms collection, including seven 1911 variants. I shoot at the Presidents' 100 National Match at Camp Perry, OH, and will be there again this year in July. This year I placed 2nd in the National NRA Collegiate Standard Pistol Competition, and 13th in the National Joint Service Academy Combat Weapons Competition. Every year I have attended West Point I have purchased one class pistol, always the same serial number, for my own collection. This year I purchased 2 with the intent (and permission) of selling the other for enough profit to finance a prototype of next year's class pistol. I am perfectly able to do so by law through my Pistol Team FFL holder. I am sorry that this individual is unhappy about the reserve on this fine pistol, but I know it is worth that, and others have sold for much more, both in previous years and this year. I feel my reserve reflects both a fair price and a price that will allow the construction of next year's prototype (a 1873 version 45 LC engraved like General Patton's, plus West Point embellishment) I am sorry if you are unhappy about this but life goes on. Good evening, Regards

    Mitch Rosnick
    CO H3 USCC
    West Point
    10997
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  • cpermdcpermd Member Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    SSG idsman75.
    His story sounds good to me.
    Leave things be and quit complaining.
    I was the high bidder.
    cpermd
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  • ProkoteProkote Member Posts: 82 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sounds like the dudes wait in line for the stamp was not as selfish as initally thought.Hey Ssg be cool.Officers are'nt squat without thier NCO's.Perhaps the good lord intended for you to lead men,at there side and not from the AA. All the way!

    Shoot straight!
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would only make one correction, and that is to say that in the area of antiques and collectibles, an item is only worth what someone is willing to give for it on a given day. Markets go up and down on everything you can name, and even ISA certified experts would appraise an item in a "range" unless suggesting an insurance replacement cost. There are no guarantees.

    - Life NRA Member
    If dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    But back to the topic at hand, I agree with the fellow who said nobody knows for sure what makes an unlicensed dealer in the eyes of the law. I do know this much -- if local dealers in your area feel you are doing too much turnover, that is, buying and selling and buying, but not from them, one of them might be paranoid enough to suspect you of unlicensed dealing. They don't even really like competing with the weekly classified ad papers.

    In my case, I just get itchy to make changes from time to time, and the reason a particular dealer doesn't get my business is because I found a better price, maybe on a near-new gun or maybe new but cheaper at a gun show. I hardly ever sell a gun unless I need the money for a better gun.



    - Life NRA Member
    If dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I got a cut/paste version of the post in my email this morning. I may disagree with the ethics but so be it. I have a warm place in my heart for Pointers. There is a lot of heritage and history associated with USMA and am proud to have been a part of it for a couple of years. I also know that I wasn't cut out for the academics. I hold no shame for that and do not want this to be misinterpreted. There is no chip on my shoulder. My intial concern was for the honor and pride of the cadets and graduated cadets. I hate to see it tarnished. I saw it tarnished badly while I was there. The law is interpreted one way by one party and another way by another party. This guy apparently knows his stuff and has is stuff straight. I just didn't want to see a first-time gun owner make a silly legal mistake. The Air Force Academy leads the way in felony arrests per class. The Naval Academy follows and the rear is brought up by USMA. I would hate to see the order reversed.



    Cadet Rosnick-- An anonymous call from a payphone (with no names or specific mentioned) proved that you are right and I am wrong. A one-time instance would not be considered an illegal act but a precedence of purchasing with the specific intent to sell for a profit would. I stand corrected. I apologize for the "clown" bit. I let things get to me. I'll communicate via this board rather than through email to allow my brother's anonymity to remain sacred. Maybe we'll bump into eachother at OBC. The OCS packet is going in by summer's end so I may no longer be an NCO when my brother is commissioned. Best wishes and BEAT THE DEAN!

    SSG idsman75, U.S. ARMY

    Edited by - idsman75 on 05/13/2002 12:29:52
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    When I went to Boys' State way back in '66 I received a letter of invitation to West Point as well as one from the Air Force Academy (duck!). My plan, however, was to attend U.S.C. and go into cinema/TV, a quite different career line. so I never followed up. I was however, honored enough to save the letters. Just to be asked was something.

    - Life NRA Member
    If dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    When I applied to USMA there was very little competition for appointments to the academy within my congressional district. I have no idea why because I grew up in a rather large city. All the competition was for the Air Force Academy and the Naval Academy. I am sure I was granted my appointment by default. I never took a math class beyond Trigenometry and I was mediocre at that. I had the opportunity to move on to Calculus in high school but I thought I'd take my senior year easy. That was a mistake. Fortunately my brother learned from my mistake and had quite a bit of Calculus and computer programming under his belt before he reported for Cadet Basic Training. He does very well academically and I try to teach him the lessons that I've learned from the hard way. I thought West Point was tough but being an NCO seems to be an even greater challenge for me lately.

    Cadet Rosnick has something going for him that my brother and I do/did not. He was an NCO before he was a Cadet. As an officer he will have quite a bit more to bring to the table than the majority of his newly-commissioned class (not to mention the fact that he is a firearms enthusiast).

    SSG idsman75, U.S. ARMY
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  • cpermdcpermd Member Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I knew this would be interesting in a couple of ways.
    I sure thought the bidding would go higher.
    cpermd
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  • TrinityScrimshawTrinityScrimshaw Member Posts: 9,350 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You know when it comes right down to it, this guy should be able to by the gun and do with it what ever he wanted to. But, in todays anti-gun attitudes that run amuck, there will always be someone who doesn't agree. Sara Bradey comes to mind.

    Trinity+++

    "Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it."(Proverbs 22:6)
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    TrinityScrimshaw--Amen. A gun is a piece of private property. Criminals will buy them and swap them on the street like baseball cards so such laws really only keep honest guys honest. I just hate to see someone who is honest make an honest mistake and go down for it. You can attest to the temper that I can develop once in awhile. I am not going to delete my words to save face but I guess I made a mountain out of a molehill here. I will admit though that I could never part with something so historical. Of all the commemoratives that I've seen, the West Point Class commemoratives have been my envy. There is some true history there. Winchesters be damned. I just wouldn't feel right about buying one without having shared in the tradition.

    SSG idsman75, U.S. ARMY
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  • martzkj@msn.commartzkj@msn.com Member Posts: 582 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I maybe wrong, however I beleive the AFT laws state: A person that buys and sells gun to improve their collection does not need a license. Therefore, if a person sells 4 or 5 gun for a profit so they can afford to keep one is doing nothing wrong. So if this person buys two and sells one to cut his cost may do so.
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