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Gunwalker Bomb Shell....There was not a STING

GuvamintCheeseGuvamintCheese Member Posts: 38,932
edited September 2011 in General Discussion
http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-national/gunwalker-bombshell-there-never-was-a-sting

An ATF source has provided reporters a copy of a letter sent on June 1, 2010 which indicates that the monumental scandal known as 'Project Gunwalker,' or 'Operation Fast and Furious,' was never a sting operation as previously reported. If such an allegation is true, then the official Obama Administration explanation for the operation is entirely false.

The commonly-reported talking point concerning Gunwalker is that it was intended as a sting operation but that it went bad when rogue ATF agents took it in a sinister direction.

But the letter of June 2010, forwarded to reporters David Codrea and Mike Vanderboegh, indicates that nothing about the operation contained any of the elements of a 'sting.' Everything ATF agents did in placing guns into the hands of Mexican drug cartels was done in the open and with the approval of their supervisors:

Per Section925(a)(1) of the Gun Control Act (GCA) exempts law enforcement agencies from the transportation, shipment, receipt, or importation controls of the GCA when firearms are to be used for the official business of the agency.

Please accept this letter in lieu of completing an ATF Form 4473 for the purchase of four (4) CAI, Model Draco, 7.62x39 mm pistols, by Special Agent John Dodson. These aforementioned pistols will be used by Special Agent Dodson in furtherance of the performance of his official duties. In addition, Special Agent Dodson has not been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence. If you have any questions, you may contact me at telephone number 602-605-6501.

That letter was written by ATF-Phoenix Group VII Supervisor David Voth and was addressed to a federal firearms licensee, directing him to sell Agent Dodson the specified firearms off the books.

Reporter Vanderboegh picks up the story:

"The existence of this letter, coupled with interviews of other sources across the country which put it into context, provides startling proof that the Federal government did not merely 'lose track' of weapons purchased by 'straw buyers' under surveillance by the ATF and destined for the Mexican drug cartels. In an undercover operation ordered by Fast and Furious supervisor David Voth, the U.S. government purchased firearms with taxpayer money from licensed firearms dealers, instructed them to conduct the sales 'off the books,' and used an ATF agent, John Dodson, to deliver them directly to people that Dodson believed were conducting them across the border."

In addition, Vanderboegh reports that official ATF documents and sources in Arizona and Washington confirm that on at least 2 occasions in 2010, the Obama Administration purchased semi-automatic pistols directly from federally licensed gun dealers with taxpayers' money and took them directly to drug cartel smugglers.

The ramifications of this revelation are explosive, particularly for those working with the Issa committee in the U.S. House of Representatives in investigating the scandal. One of those individuals told Vanderboegh the following:

According one source close to the Issa committee and knowledgeable of its workings, this revelation "puts a stake in the heart of the 'botched sting operation' lie." He continued, "There never was any 'sting,' there was only a deliberate effort to provide weapons to the DTO's (Drug Trafficking Organizations)." He added, "this was one hundred percent us -- our money, our guy, our (gun)walking."

This source also provided context and explanation of how the letter came to exist in the first place.

(It should be noted that although we would never reveal our sources for any story, it is important in this case for the readers to understand where we did NOT get it. Neither John Dodson nor his lawyer provided us this letter. Nor did they pass it through to us via a third party, as the DOJ has been known to do lately.)

"Dodson was given this undercover assignment by Voth," said the source, "to purchase weapons directly and provide them to the smugglers. He was operating under cover, pretending to be a 'straw buyer.'" He continued, "I think Dodson demanded the letter from Voth to cover both himself and the FFL (Federal Firearm Licensee). He didn't want to be hung out to dry" by Voth.

The source also said that the letter was an effort by Voth to "dirty him (Dodson) up," pointing out that by the time of the undercover assignment that Dodson's vocal opposition to "letting guns walk" was well known to his superiors in the Phoenix ATF office.

Sources also describe a second letter from Voth to another FFL authorizing Dodson to purchase two more Draco pistols. One source stated flatly: "Issa and Grassley have copies of both letters, and have had for a long time."

Subsequent to this undercover weapons buying and transfer to cartel smugglers by Dodson, say the sources, "Dodson just about came apart all over them (his supervisors)." In a "screaming match" that was heard throughout the Phoenix office by many employees, Dodson yelled at Voth and Assistant Special Agent in Charge George Gillett, "Why not just go direct and empty out the ATF arms room" to the cartels," or words to that effect.



These revelations place the investigation into Gunwalker in an entirely different light. This is no longer about a 'sting operation gone bad' but a deliberate, sinister attempt to manipulate gun statistics in Mexico for political gain.Further, CBS News has issued several stinging reports over the past few days that cast even more dark shadows over the ATF Fast and Furious operation. The NRA's Wayne LaPierre granted an interview in which he stated that Gunwalker was never intended to become public knowledge and that when it did go public the cover-up undertaken by the Administration was massive. In addition, secret tapes recently made public show that ATF officials considered the agent who blew the whistle on the agency's illegal operation to be 'toxic.'

But perhaps the most damning evidence of all was a secret audio revealed by CBS News which shows that ATF officials considered the murder of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry with the guns the agency gave to cartels to be mere 'collateral damage.'

Comments

  • bhale187bhale187 Member Posts: 7,798
    edited November -1
    It's ok, they already demoted the guy who was in charge of the BATF when it happened, nothing to see here, move along
  • dav1965dav1965 Member Posts: 26,540 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I wish someone would give me a bunch of weapons. I promise i will not shoot anybody unless the deserve it or make me mad. Scouts honer.
  • Waco WaltzWaco Waltz Member Posts: 10,836 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Move along? Really? You think some ATF agents were motivated by political gain? Did you read the posted article?
  • River RatRiver Rat Member Posts: 9,022
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Waco Waltz
    Move along? Really? You think some ATF agents were motivated by political gain? Did you read the posted article?


    Green ink. It's okay.
  • spasmcreekspasmcreek Member Posts: 37,717 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    this is aso blatantly bad it is almost unbelievable ...it is not unbelievable to wager nothing will happen to the big dogs
  • TrinityScrimshawTrinityScrimshaw Member Posts: 9,350 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have been saying all along that the reason this entire operations was done was to obtain more false proof that stricter Gun Control was needed.[:(!]

    It matches too closely with Hillary Clinton's statement in the summer of 2009 that most of the guns being used by the drug cartels in Mexico were bought in the US & traded/sold to the cartels. If the truth had never been exposed then Obama & the Democrats would have used this as a reason to invoke another assault weapons ban. Obama was ready to sign an executive order to do just that.[:(!]

    Trinity +++
  • TxsTxs Member Posts: 17,809 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It's interesting that the BATFE chose to obtain these guns by having their undercover identify himself to an FFL and present a letter of authorization to sell off the books rather than simply pulling previously seized/forfeited guns from their agency's stores.

    There's a serious risk involved with exposing an undercover agent's identity to ANY business near the border when working cases involving these drug cartels. In addition, it's not as if they didn't have tons of guns on hand that were already US gov't property and available for requisition.
  • bhale187bhale187 Member Posts: 7,798
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Waco Waltz
    Move along? Really? You think some ATF agents were motivated by political gain? Did you read the posted article?

    green ink=sarcasm

    The fed DOES want you to think they fixed it by demoting the head of the BATF and the US Attorney in charge of this aberration of justice. They do want us to move along and forget about it. They do want you to think anyone who is still talking about it is either a nut conspiracy theorist and/or a potential domestic terrorist.

    I am grateful (and surprised) there are journalist who are still seeking out the truth of what really went on, and equally surprised that there are employees of the Justice Department who are still willing to leak more information about the case.

    I hope it all comes out to the public, and I hope those who knew about it are charge, but I don't believe either of those things will ever come to be.
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 66,404 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by bhale187
    quote:Originally posted by Waco Waltz
    Move along? Really? You think some ATF agents were motivated by political gain? Did you read the posted article?

    green ITALICS ink=sarcasm

    The fed DOES want you to think they fixed it by demoting the head of the BATF and the US Attorney in charge of this aberration of justice. They do want us to move along and forget about it. They do want you to think anyone who is still talking about it is either a nut conspiracy theorist and/or a potential domestic terrorist.

    I am grateful (and surprised) there are journalist who are still seeking out the truth of what really went on, and equally surprised that there are employees of the Justice Department who are still willing to leak more information about the case.

    I hope it all comes out to the public, and I hope those who knew about it are charge, but I don't believe either of those things will ever come to be.
    fixed it for you.
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • bhale187bhale187 Member Posts: 7,798
    edited November -1
    green italics is too much work, just green font is enough to get the point across [:p]
  • swampgutswampgut Member Posts: 5,555
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by TrinityScrimshaw
    I have been saying all along that the reason this entire operations was done was to obtain more false proof that stricter Gun Control was needed.[:(!]

    It matches too closely with Hillary Clinton's statement in the summer of 2009 that most of the guns being used by the drug cartels in Mexico were bought in the US & traded/sold to the cartels. If the truth had never been exposed then Obama & the Democrats would have used this as a reason to invoke another assault weapons ban. Obama was ready to sign an executive order to do just that.[:(!]

    Trinity +++




    DING! DING! DING! DING! DING!

    WE HAVE A WINNER!

    Now who is it that always says our government is just stupid but not corrupt?
  • medic07medic07 Member Posts: 5,222 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I am lost as to how to sell off the books.

    I can see where they say the letter was supposed to take the place of the 4473. But in your acquisition/disposition (bound) book, do you not have to list who it was sold to and the date?

    This smells like it was also meant to set up the FFL for a fall and paint them as rogue.
  • WulfmannWulfmann Member Posts: 4,906 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Under Bush this would have been an impeachable offense.

    Under Obama it was down for our own good.

    Wulfmann
    3YUCmbB.jpg
    "Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
    Otto von Bismarck
  • footlongfootlong Member Posts: 8,009
    edited November -1
    lf l came into a bunch of LEGAL guns l'd let LocUst Fork sell on GB [:D]
  • DRP-AZDRP-AZ Member Posts: 2,318 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Been beating this drum for months. Now the proof had made its way to where it needed to be.
  • ruger41ruger41 Member Posts: 14,665 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm kinda curious what you all think of the gun shop owner who was involved in all this.

    1. Good upstanding citizen thinking he was doing something good.

    2. Scumbag of the highest order for even thinking of helping the ATF.

    3. Man not using common sense.

    My take is he should have told the ATF to hit the bricks. I think he used poor judgement. If I were a shop owner I would have no desire to help the ATF do anything--they have a proven track record of screw ups and he should have known it would come back to bite him.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    !) Well, I see the off the books sales...not knowing what the supposed cover story was, one certainly would not want a records check to see where the guns came from, and to whom they were delivered...

    2)The "Toxic" status of the whistleblower (never saw a whistleblower yet not considered "toxic" by those who were revealed), is nothing out of the ordinary...

    3) Not sure about why somebody would come apart in a screaming match at such a limited sale...

    Something remains missing, and I see nothing to justify a jump to a sinister doctoring of Mexican gun violence figures.


    Oh, well.
    You seemingly don't see too well, IMO.

    As I see it....http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=533709
  • scottm21166scottm21166 Member Posts: 20,723
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    !) Well, I see the off the books sales...not knowing what the supposed cover story was, one certainly would not want a records check to see where the guns came from, and to whom they were delivered...

    2)The "Toxic" status of the whistleblower (never saw a whistleblower yet not considered "toxic" by those who were revealed), is nothing out of the ordinary...

    3) Not sure about why somebody would come apart in a screaming match at such a limited sale...

    Something remains missing, and I see nothing to justify a jump to a sinister doctoring of Mexican gun violence figures.


    Oh, well.

    you have to think even bigger. these guns were given to cartel members and they were told to leave them at crime scenes where they were used to murder high profile targets on both siodes of the border. Why else was the murder weapons for by Brian terrys body 2 of them...just a little too convienient if you ask me
  • scottm21166scottm21166 Member Posts: 20,723
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ruger41
    I'm kinda curious what you all think of the gun shop owner who was involved in all this.

    1. Good upstanding citizen thinking he was doing something good.

    2. Scumbag of the highest order for even thinking of helping the ATF.

    3. Man not using common sense.

    My take is he should have told the ATF to hit the bricks. I think he used poor judgement. If I were a shop owner I would have no desire to help the ATF do anything--they have a proven track record of screw ups and he should have known it would come back to bite him.

    every shop owner I know tells me the ATF is god and they obey when told to do something out of fears of losing their license and going to prison...
  • CaptplaidCaptplaid Member Posts: 20,298 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Democrat politicians like Obama and Holder are immune from prosecution.

    Ask yourself why this is never discussed during a Republican debate?

    Why doesn't anyone drop the bomb?

    Make the accusation.

    Make the headline.

    Why the silence?

    CFR?

    You got a better reason?
  • FrancFFrancF Member Posts: 35,279 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    U.S. Government Used Taxpayer Funds to Buy, Sell Weapons During 'Fast and Furious,' Documents Show

    http://tinyurl.com/3k578j9

    As stated before, IMHOP a botched attempt at boxing in the 2nd amendment. Anything short of that notion is crazy.
  • CaptplaidCaptplaid Member Posts: 20,298 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Obama spent $1,250,000 on guns for Mexican drug cartels.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    quote:Originally posted by lt496
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    !) Well, I see the off the books sales...not knowing what the supposed cover story was, one certainly would not want a records check to see where the guns came from, and to whom they were delivered...

    2)The "Toxic" status of the whistleblower (never saw a whistleblower yet not considered "toxic" by those who were revealed), is nothing out of the ordinary...

    3) Not sure about why somebody would come apart in a screaming match at such a limited sale...

    Something remains missing, and I see nothing to justify a jump to a sinister doctoring of Mexican gun violence figures.


    Oh, well.
    You seemingly don't see too well, IMO.

    As I see it....http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=533709




    You are free to imagine what you want.

    You might even get near the truth.

    What you know, you cannot always prove.

    So far I see no proof.

    Only claims.

    I can imagine stuff, too.

    I generally don't try to post it as fact, though.
    As I said in the thread I linked.

    "One can only view the ethic, direction and past actions of government, particularly those who are currently driving the wagon, then couple that with the facts and circumstances of the 'operation', juxtaposed with the previous proven-false claims of the numbers of guns used in crimes that came from our 'lax' gun laws and gun shows...one then makes a reasoned assessment.

    The picture is clear to me."

    Now, you can require a silver platter, a nice red bow, a personal man-servant to carry it to you and someone to hold it up to your seemingly government-believing eyes, but you and I both know that most issues such as this will not have a smoking gun.

    One is left to assess.

    Your assessment ability seems as skewed to me as you indicate that mine appears to you.

    So, there we have it.
  • BeeramidBeeramid Member Posts: 7,264 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If anybody couldn't see what this was from the beginning then they are blind.
  • swopjanswopjan Member Posts: 3,292
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Beeramid
    If anybody couldn't see what this was from the beginning then they are blind.


    +1

    This happened because you can't trust ordinary Americans with assault rifles. But they had to get rid of them somehow.
  • Waco WaltzWaco Waltz Member Posts: 10,836 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    What else was it all about then?


    J.T.


    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    !) Well, I see the off the books sales...not knowing what the supposed cover story was, one certainly would not want a records check to see where the guns came from, and to whom they were delivered...

    2)The "Toxic" status of the whistleblower (never saw a whistleblower yet not considered "toxic" by those who were revealed), is nothing out of the ordinary...

    3) Not sure about why somebody would come apart in a screaming match at such a limited sale...

    Something remains missing, and I see nothing to justify a jump to a sinister doctoring of Mexican gun violence figures.


    Oh, well.
  • Waco WaltzWaco Waltz Member Posts: 10,836 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I am guessing the leaks are from guys who realize when gun rights go out the window it's for everyone themselves included.




    quote:Originally posted by bhale187
    quote:Originally posted by Waco Waltz
    Move along? Really? You think some ATF agents were motivated by political gain? Did you read the posted article?

    green ink=sarcasm

    The fed DOES want you to think they fixed it by demoting the head of the BATF and the US Attorney in charge of this aberration of justice. They do want us to move along and forget about it. They do want you to think anyone who is still talking about it is either a nut conspiracy theorist and/or a potential domestic terrorist.

    I am grateful (and surprised) there are journalist who are still seeking out the truth of what really went on, and equally surprised that there are employees of the Justice Department who are still willing to leak more information about the case.

    I hope it all comes out to the public, and I hope those who knew about it are charge, but I don't believe either of those things will ever come to be.
  • Waco WaltzWaco Waltz Member Posts: 10,836 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Rumors about the feds work with the cartels on a semi regular basis. I mean the feds won't end the drug war, they are aiding and abeting really.


    quote:Originally posted by scottm21166
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    !) Well, I see the off the books sales...not knowing what the supposed cover story was, one certainly would not want a records check to see where the guns came from, and to whom they were delivered...

    2)The "Toxic" status of the whistleblower (never saw a whistleblower yet not considered "toxic" by those who were revealed), is nothing out of the ordinary...

    3) Not sure about why somebody would come apart in a screaming match at such a limited sale...

    Something remains missing, and I see nothing to justify a jump to a sinister doctoring of Mexican gun violence figures.


    Oh, well.

    you have to think even bigger. these guns were given to cartel members and they were told to leave them at crime scenes where they were used to murder high profile targets on both siodes of the border. Why else was the murder weapons for by Brian terrys body 2 of them...just a little too convienient if you ask me
  • DRP-AZDRP-AZ Member Posts: 2,318 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think there are a few, like Dodson, who were genuinely shaken by Terry's murder (these purchases took place long before) and he had already been unhappy about this operation.

    However, I think most are only leaking so that they can avoid getting their * enlarged by their cellmate in federal prison when regime change finally happens and people start going down for this obscene violation of Law and good sense.
  • nmyersnmyers Member Posts: 16,891 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Two of the largest dealers in Maryland (Baltimore Gunsmith & Valley Gun Shop) closed after the fellas with the bulges in the cheap suits snatched their licenses on a fabricated pretext. Both fought it, & both lost. Money spent, lawyers hired, courts petitioned ---- it does no good; the government always breaks your ovaries.

    No dealer who hopes to stay in business will say "no" to an ATF request, no matter what his intuition tells him.

    Neal
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