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Merit Pay for Teachers with only good test results

select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,453 ✭✭✭✭
edited February 2007 in General Discussion
District my wife works in just passed Merit Pay at the school board meeting. Teachers will get bonus pay for good test results of their students. Some classrooms have more under achievers than others .. My comment is they need none. They should do their job. Teachers would also get a huge bonus for attendance. Fair or unfair?

Comments

  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    Different schools will have better students than some. NOT FAIR to those in the schools that dont have access to the brighter kids. AW hell lets just pay everyone that does their job EXTRA.
  • rogue_robrogue_rob Member Posts: 7,033 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by select-fire
    District my wife works in just passed Merit Pay at the school board meeting. Teachers will get bonus pay for good test results of their students. Some classrooms have more under achievers than others .. My comment is they need none. They should do their job. Teachers would also get a huge bonus for attendance. Fair or unfair?


    Thats a crap idea!!! Now teachers will be simply teaching the test in order to obtain higher test scores. Jeeez, it's like giving a ticket quota to a cop almost.

    Of course with the no child left behind thing, they are probably already teaching the tests but merit pay will reward them for it.[V]
  • ObiWanObiWan Member Posts: 1,054 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Not a pay bonus. It's the kids fault they are stupid and unwilling to listen.

    They can't be paddled. No discipline in the class rooms. Under this program elementary teachers will get bonus's while the teachers dealing with the older worst kids won't * squat.
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,453 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by rogue_rob
    quote:Originally posted by select-fire
    District my wife works in just passed Merit Pay at the school board meeting. Teachers will get bonus pay for good test results of their students. Some classrooms have more under achievers than others .. My comment is they need none. They should do their job. Teachers would also get a huge bonus for attendance. Fair or unfair?


    Thats a crap idea!!! Now teachers will be simply teaching the test in order to obtain higher test scores. Jeeez, it's like giving a ticket quota to a cop almost.

    Of course with the no child left behind thing, they are probably already teaching the tests but merit pay will reward them for it.[V]





    No child thingy with Fed gov. isn't working. The standards are set too high for the students to obtain. Wife does not agree with the merit pay at all. She has gotten attendance bonus's quite often and does not miss school. In fact she was awarded Teacher of the Year for her school. [:D][:D]
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    I think it's a good idea. They reward teachers that get results and not just a general pay raises across the board. It will give some teachers the incentive to put in the extra effort where needed.
  • Tailgunner1954Tailgunner1954 Member Posts: 7,734 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Good idea (test scores and attendence), but applied in the wrong direction. Having teachers that teach and that are at work everyday should be the norm and require no reward. Teachers that can't teach or who don't feel like coming to work should be terminated and have their teaching certs revoked.
  • kimikimi Member Posts: 44,723 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    For sure it's going to have more than its fair share of good and bad points, to include, growing pains. A couple of the good points aside from rewarding folks who are, on the whole, seriously underpaid, and firing the incompetents, is that it will cut down on graduating folks who have not earned that right, plus do away with the abundance of philosophers we have had to live with the past 80 years or so.
    What's next?
  • KSUmarksmanKSUmarksman Member Posts: 10,705 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    if it is based on the no child left standing test, then it will fail miserably.
    Why don't government stooges understand that performance on their little bubble-sheet government-standard tests relates only marginally to the students' actual learning? My most recent experience, although not a government test, is the GRE. What is the point of making me temporarily train myself to solve (relatively) simple math problems like a robot and automatically recognize the famous trick questions that the GRE is known for? I have solved intergrals and differential equations that would render the average college student unconcious and they make me play robot by solving 30 stupid problems in as many minutes [xx(] I did do well enough on the GRE to get into any grad school, so I am not just whining becaue I did crappy, I just fail to see how it is good for anything other than sucking $130 from me.

    If they are talking about the actual classroom scores, that is a different story, but then we run into trouble with teachers dumbing down their projects and exams in order to boost scores.
  • WinM70WinM70 Member Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This won't work, time will tell.
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,453 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by kimi
    For sure it's going to have more than its fair share of good and bad points, to include, growing pains. A couple of the good points aside from rewarding folks who are, on the whole, seriously underpaid, and firing the incompetents, is that it will cut down on graduating folks who have not earned that right, plus do away with the abundance of philosophers we have had to live with the past 80 years or so.


    Teachers are paid by their degree's and years of service. A School could have a 6 year teacher with 2 degrees making more than a 15 year old teacher with only a bachelors degree.
  • dlrjjdlrjj Member Posts: 5,528 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    When has any teacher NOT taught to the test? I would hope that any test they gave would be designed to be over the material taught in class. It would be patently asinine to test over things that had not been taught so, by definition, all teaching is, or should be, to the tests given. "Teaching to the test" is just another one of those nifty sounding catch phrases that means absolutely nothing, but sounds impressive.[:)]
    Tax evasion is illegal, tax avoidance is an art form.
  • WranglerWrangler Member Posts: 5,788
    edited November -1
    Last year, they past a similar deal in Houston. Well, the first bonus checks came out this month. It was a real morale buster for some. Not a fair system for the teachers that get the low IQ kids.

    Here's a story from the Houston Chronicle:

    C&P:

    Teacher bonuses strike a nerve
    'Frustrating day' for those who don't agree with HISD's incentive formula


    By ERICKA MELLON
    Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

    Teachers' lounges buzzed with frustration and confusion Wednesday when educators in the Houston Independent School District learned how much, if any, bonus pay they received and the amounts their colleagues pocketed.

    The district doled out about $14 million in bonuses to nearly 8,000 teachers and other employees under the new performance-pay plan. The payout sparked delight among some, discontent among others.

    "Today has been a pretty frustrating day for teachers across the board," said Amy Whitlow, a first-grade teacher at Eliot Elementary who earned a $500 bonus. "There were snide remarks made toward some teachers that got higher bonuses. A lot of teachers were very angry and upset."

    Teachers across the district, for example, didn't understand how a nurse ended up receiving a bigger bonus than a math or science teacher.

    They didn't understand how a teacher earned no bonus even though 100 percent of her students passed the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills.

    And they didn't understand how an admired educator who had been named "Teacher of the Year" received zilch.

    The explanation for all those queries is simple, according to the superintendent's team: The teachers didn't meet the requirements of the district's unique formula, which spits out who gets bonuses and who doesn't.

    Superintendent Abelardo Saavedra has conceded that the formula is both complex and imperfect, and he and the school board intend to tweak it. But overall he said he stands by the formula's emphasis on how much individual teachers helped individual students to improve on standardized tests.

    "As complex as this is," Saavedra said during a celebratory news conference Tuesday, "this is a system that is the right system, and frankly, I'm willing to bet that a lot of teachers understand the system."

    In addition, Saavedra repeatedly emphasized that the district's plan rewarded about four times as many teachers this year as last year, and this year's maximum payout topped $7,000, compared with the previous $1,000 flat rate.

    Upset, some left early

    As president of the district's largest teachers' union, Gayle Fallon said she received some 50 e-mail messages from teachers Wednesday and "lost count on the phone calls." Fallon said she heard from a couple of teachers who left school early because they were so upset.

    "I have two that I know of that walked off the job and said, 'I'm not dealing with the humiliation,' " said Fallon, who runs the Houston Federation of Teachers. "One of them was still crying when I talked to her an hour later."

    Put simply, under the district's bonus plan, all classroom teachers and other school staffers, such as nurses, librarians and counselors, are eligible for bonuses. But some qualify for more money than others, depending on the subject and grade level they teach. Those who teach core subjects that require standardized tests, including the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills and the national Stanford 10, can reap the biggest rewards.

    Common questions

    Some common questions about the bonus formula:

    How can a "Teacher of the Year" be denied a bonus?

    Answer: The test scores of that teacher or that teacher's school didn't improve enough. The formula does not include other measures, such as awards or principals' evaluations.

    How can a teacher whose students all passed the TAKS be denied money?

    Answer: The formula does not care about the percent of students who pass the test. It looks at actual scores on the test, known as scale scores. A student could pass the test and still have room to improve. The formula looks at a student's score one year and the same student's score the next, and judges the teacher based on how much that student improved, compared with students of the same income level.

    How can a nurse, counselor and other nonclassroom teacher make more money than a core teacher in subjects such as reading and math?

    Answer: The formula judges core teachers based on how much their own students grow on the standardized tests. Nurses and the others are judged on the improvement of all students in the school.

    Some teachers complained the formula favors those who teach 11th grade because juniors must pass the TAKS that year to graduate - which motivates them to do better on the test.

    "Clearly, juniors try harder. They have incentive to pass the thing," said Ferryn Martin, an 11th-grade history teacher at Austin High School who earned a $3,075 bonus.

    HISD officials disputed that 11th-grade teachers have an unjust advantage.

    "Outstanding teachers motivate their children no matter what grade they're in," HISD spokesman Terry Abbott said.

    Martin, who has been teaching for 22 years, said a couple of young ninth-grade teachers came to her upset because they didn't get a bonus.

    Published online

    Many teachers learned how much others earned from the Houston Chronicle, and some questioned its decision to publish the bonus amounts online.

    Katie Coughlen, who is president of the Parent Teacher Organization at Bellaire High School, said she visited the Chronicle's Web site to check out the information.

    "It was interesting to see how the bonuses were distributed around the different schools," said Coughlen, who has a son at Bellaire and a son at Johnston Middle School.

    Still, she said she rates teachers by her own interactions with them and not by bonuses.

    Editors said Wednesday that they published the information because the public had a right to know how the school district was spending the more than $14 million in bonus money.

    "It's a matter of public record," Managing Editor John Wilburn said. "Which teachers get bonuses, and how much they get, is of great interest to our readers, particularly parents of HISD students."

    Some people are so angry over the district's performance-pay plan that they are encouraging teachers to call in sick in protest. Fallon said her union is not advocating skipping work.

    "Trust me," she said, "... if the law permitted, we would be out there screaming for it, but it doesn't."
  • KSUmarksmanKSUmarksman Member Posts: 10,705 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
    When has any teacher NOT taught to the test? I would hope that any test they gave would be designed to be over the material taught in class. It would be patently asinine to test over things that had not been taught so, by definition, all teaching is, or should be, to the tests given. "Teaching to the test" is just another one of those nifty sounding catch phrases that means absolutely nothing, but sounds impressive.[:)]


    whoever said that was referring to the stupid government-standardized-bubble-sheet test not the tests the teachers write, which do cover the material of their lesson plans. Modern standardized tests take a special kind of robot mentality to do well on, so one has to practice that on top of stuff one should be learning.
  • dlrjjdlrjj Member Posts: 5,528 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by KSUmarksman
    quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
    When has any teacher NOT taught to the test? I would hope that any test they gave would be designed to be over the material taught in class. It would be patently asinine to test over things that had not been taught so, by definition, all teaching is, or should be, to the tests given. "Teaching to the test" is just another one of those nifty sounding catch phrases that means absolutely nothing, but sounds impressive.[:)]


    whoever said that was referring to the stupid government-standardized-bubble-sheet test not the tests the teachers write, which do cover the material of their lesson plans. Modern standardized tests take a special kind of robot mentality to do well on, so one has to practice that on top of stuff one should be learning.
    I have looked at and studied quite a few of those tests and the only real problem I've seen with them is that they are far too easy in many cases. We have an ISTEP test here in Indiana which could be passed by most seeing eye dogs, yet we have constant complaints that it is too hard. Guess what, education takes effort, and was never designed to be entertainment. I have zero sympathy for those who can't pass tests of that type.
    Tax evasion is illegal, tax avoidance is an art form.
  • jbw1776jbw1776 Member Posts: 3,056
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
    When has any teacher NOT taught to the test? I would hope that any test they gave would be designed to be over the material taught in class. It would be patently asinine to test over things that had not been taught so, by definition, all teaching is, or should be, to the tests given. "Teaching to the test" is just another one of those nifty sounding catch phrases that means absolutely nothing, but sounds impressive.[:)]


    I agree with you Dan that the test should cover the subject taught in class, and when I was going through we would be taught a huge volume of info over a period of time and the test would reflect the material taught. However, out of, lets say, 100 things taught, only 25 were actually on the test, one never knew what would be on it, so you studied for everything just to be safe, thus actually learn something.

    What I think they are talking about when they say, "teach the test" is something I've personally witnessed several times. The teacher would pull out the ACTUAL test and start, "No 1. What is the..........?, No. 2 Who invented..............?". And so on.

    I can sit in class, asleep, with ear plugs in for a month, then 2 days before the test you tell me what's gonna be on it, and I will memorize 50 Q&A's overnight and ace the test. Didn't learn anything, but aced it none the less.

    But as the story goes, my grandfather walked 25 miles one way in the snow to school, my dad 10, me about 5. Now it doesn't snow here in Louisiana![:D][;)][:D]

    Ben
  • dlrjjdlrjj Member Posts: 5,528 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    It's the global warming![:D]

    I agree with the potential problem you refer to JB, but I don't think it as extensive a problem as some might envision. The first problem is that if the test is that narrow in scope, the surplus of time needed to teach to such a small knowledge set becomes evident very rapidly, and classes tend to get adjusted fairly quickly to compensate. There is just too much "in house" competition for the resources to allow it to continue for long.

    The second problem concerns the design of the test itself. If the test is properly designed, and entails the material that should be learned in the course, then teaching that material is reasonable. The trick is to create a test that covers what should have been learned in the first place. If we correctly define the objective, the means to achieve them tend to reveal themselves.

    I'm not contending that the system cannot be abused, for as we have seen with several of the discussions here related to unions, management, banks, car dealers, and any sort of repairman, it is possible to find examples of sloppy work in every field. That does not mean that the average person involved in that field does not have an element of pride involved in their own work output, and the more advanced the training or education required to get a job, the more likely that person is to have some standards of their own, on their own. Very few people can acquire advanced training or education if they have a poor work ethic to begin with, since it is usually just more trouble than it is worth to them.[:)]
    Tax evasion is illegal, tax avoidance is an art form.
  • dcon13dcon13 Member Posts: 143 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Teachers deserve more money. One dollar more. Danielle.
  • jbw1776jbw1776 Member Posts: 3,056
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
    It's the global warming![:D]

    I agree with the potential problem you refer to JB, but I don't think it as extensive a problem as some might envision. The first problem is that if the test is that narrow in scope, the surplus of time needed to teach to such a small knowledge set becomes evident very rapidly, and classes tend to get adjusted fairly quickly to compensate. There is just too much "in house" competition for the resources to allow it to continue for long.

    The second problem concerns the design of the test itself. If the test is properly designed, and entails the material that should be learned in the course, then teaching that material is reasonable. The trick is to create a test that covers what should have been learned in the first place. If we correctly define the objective, the means to achieve them tend to reveal themselves.

    I'm not contending that the system cannot be abused, for as we have seen with several of the discussions here elated to unions, management, banks, car dealers, and any sort of repairman, it is possible to find examples of sloppy work in every field. That does not mean that the average person involved in that field does not have an element of pride involved in their own work output, and the more advanced the training or education required to get a job, the more likely that person is to have some standards of their own, on their own. Very few people can acquire advanced training or education if they have a poor work ethic to begin with, since it is usually just more trouble than it is worth to them.[:)]


    You have some good points there.[:)]

    Global warming![:D] I knew there had to be a reason their stories didn't add up.[;)]

    I did, however, see about 10 snow flurries today. No joke, my father thought the paint on the barn was flaking!![:D][:D] Rare occurance around here.[8D]

    Ben
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    My wife has been a teacher most of her life. I am constantly amazed and appaled about how much time, energy and thought she spends at home just getting ready for the next teaching day. Often I tell her that she could get two full time jobs doing something else and still spend less time working than she does now.

    No, really, I am not kidding.

    I often tell her I absoutely cannot believe that any new teacher would start out and, after finding out how much work it requires just to be a teacher, that the new teacher would probablly quickly find another professional and get the he!! out of the teaching profession.

    So you might think she has the best class room in the school? Not really. Despite all her efforts, a lot of her efforts are undone because many of here 7-8th grade students just plain do not want to learn nor do those kids have any respect for my wife or for the other students. My wife spends much of her classroom time just keeping the disruptive kids in line so the good kids who want to learn will at least have a chance. And she gets little or no support or help from the high paid school administration (principal, etc) as when I was a school kid. And many of the parents don't give a damn about how poorly their kids are performing in school or how badly they act up in class.

    I can't wait until she retires.

    Many people want to make teachers more accountable. And that might be good if at the same time you differeniate between the presently good teachers and the presently bad teachers. Because beleive me I know full well there are lazy, ignorant and worthless teachers out there right now. But from what I have seen over 20 some years, the good teachers get little respect, support or appreaction. In fact often the good teachers are given more work by administration BECAUSE ADMIN KNOWS THE WORK WILL GET DONE.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ECC
    I think it's a good idea. They reward teachers that get results and not just a general pay raises across the board. It will give some teachers the incentive to put in the extra effort where needed.

    But what about what I have seen? By not doing their job, school admin (prinicpals, etc) help to make sure that a good teacher is not able to actually be a good teacher becasue they spend too much time and effort trying to keep order in the classroom and trying to teach kidss that should not even be in their classroom but are only there because of "political correctness" in that no student is supposed to be told they are stupid and/or too uncivilized to be in a regular classroom.
  • dlrjjdlrjj Member Posts: 5,528 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by tr fox
    My wife has been a teacher most of her life. I am constantly amazed and appaled about how much time, energy and thought she spends at home just getting ready for the next teaching day. Often I tell her that she could get two full time jobs doing something else and still spend less time working than she does now.

    No, really, I am not kidding.

    I often tell her I absoutely cannot believe that any new teacher would start out and, after finding out how much work it requires just to be a teacher, that the new teacher would probablly quickly find another professional and get the he!! out of the teaching profession.

    So you might think she has the best class room in the school? Not really. Despite all her efforts, a lot of her efforts are undone because many of here 7-8th grade students just plain do not want to learn nor do those kids have any respect for my wife or for the other students. My wife spends much of her classroom time just keeping the disruptive kids in line so the good kids who want to learn will at least have a chance. And she gets little or no support or help from the high paid school administration (principal, etc) as when I was a school kid. And many of the parents don't give a damn about how poorly their kids are performing in school or how badly they act up in class.

    I can't wait until she retires.

    Many people want to make teachers more accountable. And that might be good if at the same time you differeniate between the presently good teachers and the presently bad teachers. Because beleive me I know full well there are lazy, ignorant and worthless teachers out there right now. But from what I have seen over 20 some years, the good teachers get little respect, support or appreaction. In fact often the good teachers are given more work by administration BECAUSE ADMIN KNOWS THE WORK WILL GET DONE.


    My wife is in the same boat TR. She's a very intelligent woman who works very hard at her job just so that some clown can state that if she actually could do anything, she would do something else. Maybe she just likes kids and enjoys helping them become something. She has a Master's Degree in Math and could do many jobs, but she just plain likes to teach.

    BTW, our school system has not given a pay raise in four years now.
    Tax evasion is illegal, tax avoidance is an art form.
  • nards444nards444 Member Posts: 3,994 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think its a good idea, because so many teachers dont do anything. Im basing that off of my experience, and the school i went too was 700 in the country. BUT if they do it I think the school should be a factor as well. By that I mean if you have a school that continually does well then the standards should be harder because you obviously have better students. And a school that is poor it should be easier. So pretty much put it on a pro rating system. Being a teacher is noble and I tip my hat. But for the majority for the days they work theyre pay is perfect.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
    quote:Originally posted by tr fox
    My wife has been a teacher most of her life. I am constantly amazed and appaled about how much time, energy and thought she spends at home just getting ready for the next teaching day. Often I tell her that she could get two full time jobs doing something else and still spend less time working than she does now.

    No, really, I am not kidding.

    I often tell her I absoutely cannot believe that any new teacher would start out and, after finding out how much work it requires just to be a teacher, that the new teacher would probablly quickly find another professional and get the he!! out of the teaching profession.

    So you might think she has the best class room in the school? Not really. Despite all her efforts, a lot of her efforts are undone because many of here 7-8th grade students just plain do not want to learn nor do those kids have any respect for my wife or for the other students. My wife spends much of her classroom time just keeping the disruptive kids in line so the good kids who want to learn will at least have a chance. And she gets little or no support or help from the high paid school administration (principal, etc) as when I was a school kid. And many of the parents don't give a damn about how poorly their kids are performing in school or how badly they act up in class.

    I can't wait until she retires.

    Many people want to make teachers more accountable. And that might be good if at the same time you differeniate between the presently good teachers and the presently bad teachers. Because beleive me I know full well there are lazy, ignorant and worthless teachers out there right now. But from what I have seen over 20 some years, the good teachers get little respect, support or appreaction. In fact often the good teachers are given more work by administration BECAUSE ADMIN KNOWS THE WORK WILL GET DONE.


    My wife is in the same boat TR. She's a very intelligent woman who works very hard at her job just so that some clown can state that if she actually could do anything, she would do something else. Maybe she just likes kids and enjoys helping them become something. She has a Master's Degree in Math and could do many jobs, but she just plain likes to teach.

    BTW, our school system has not given a pay raise in four years now.


    I hear you. My wife has a masters plus a lot of hours towards a Ph.d. A whole lotta people with a lot less education and a lot less experience make a whole lot more money for a whole lot less work.
  • PanzerSlayer2PanzerSlayer2 Member Posts: 1,798 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm not really sure how dumb kids in your class or bad parents or any of those other excuses really apply.

    In my sale ompany we get dealt with bad economy, the product sucks, or competitor is luring aways customers and yet there are no exceptions to my sales quotas and our profit sharing and bonues.

    I too have spent months putting together protoypes and sales proposals only to hae a prospective client bail. I will venture to say that I have spent more time in sales meetings, design sessions, traveling from my office to a customer to our manufacturing facilities, staying at lousy hotels, being delayed at airports and time away from home than any time a teacher puts into her class plan.

    A goal is set, either you meet it or you don't regardless of the hand you're dealt
  • dlrjjdlrjj Member Posts: 5,528 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by PanzerSlayer2
    I'm not really sure how dumb kids in your class or bad parents or any of those other excuses really apply.

    In my sale ompany we get dealt with bad economy, the product sucks, or competitor is luring aways customers and yet there are no exceptions to my sales quotas and our profit sharing and bonues.

    I too have spent months putting together protoypes and sales proposals only to hae a prospective client bail. I will venture to say that I have spent more time in sales meetings, design sessions, traveling from my office to a customer to our manufacturing facilities, staying at lousy hotels, being delayed at airports and time away from home than any time a teacher puts into her class plan.

    A goal is set, either you meet it or you don't regardless of the hand you're dealt
    Did your product ever just find out it was pregnant and still have to go to class? Did your product break up with its boyfriend/girlfriend, get beaten by mom or dad, live with an alcoholic, watch the family move to divorce? Does your product get to you and not even know how to read, or speak the language?

    Not you, the product itself. You're not dealing with an inanimate sales product here, it's an entirely different ballgame when you're dealing with people in this manner. Anyone who has ever tried to figure out why teenagers hate the world, and especially mom and dad, would understand the difference. It's easy when they are little, not so much when they hit puberty.

    Good product or not, all of yours are the same. Kids don't come that way.
    Tax evasion is illegal, tax avoidance is an art form.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by PanzerSlayer2
    I'm not really sure how dumb kids in your class or bad parents or any of those other excuses really apply.

    In my sale ompany we get dealt with bad economy, the product sucks, or competitor is luring aways customers and yet there are no exceptions to my sales quotas and our profit sharing and bonues.

    I too have spent months putting together protoypes and sales proposals only to hae a prospective client bail. I will venture to say that I have spent more time in sales meetings, design sessions, traveling from my office to a customer to our manufacturing facilities, staying at lousy hotels, being delayed at airports and time away from home than any time a teacher puts into her class plan.

    A goal is set, either you meet it or you don't regardless of the hand you're dealt


    You do present some good logic there. However, one main difference between your situation and my wife's teaching situation is that I assume there are not many (if any) people within your organization that are purposely a drag on you and your sales efforts. In other words, I believe that any successful sales organization makes sure that their successful salespeople do not have any unnecessary roadblocks to their success. With my wife's teaching efforts there are numerous unnecessary roadblocks in her way as she attempts to do the best job she can.


    But pay my wife what a successful, highly paid salesman makes and not only will she continue to work like she has two jobs but I will quit my job and help her.
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,453 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by tr fox
    quote:Originally posted by PanzerSlayer2
    I'm not really sure how dumb kids in your class or bad parents or any of those other excuses really apply.

    In my sale ompany we get dealt with bad economy, the product sucks, or competitor is luring aways customers and yet there are no exceptions to my sales quotas and our profit sharing and bonues.

    I too have spent months putting together protoypes and sales proposals only to hae a prospective client bail. I will venture to say that I have spent more time in sales meetings, design sessions, traveling from my office to a customer to our manufacturing facilities, staying at lousy hotels, being delayed at airports and time away from home than any time a teacher puts into her class plan.

    A goal is set, either you meet it or you don't regardless of the hand you're dealt


    You do present some good logic there. However, one main difference between your situation and my wife's teaching situation is that I assume there are not many (if any) people within your organization that are purposely a drag on you and your sales efforts. In other words, I believe that any successful sales organization makes sure that their successful salespeople do not have any unnecessary roadblocks to their success. With my wife's teaching efforts there are numerous unnecessary roadblocks in her way as she attempts to do the best job she can.


    But pay my wife what a successful, highly paid salesman makes and not only will she continue to work like she has two jobs but I will quit my job and help her.


    My wife is very happy with what she makes Teaching. Bachelor, two Masters degree's, National Board Certification, and almost thru with her Ph.d. she makes great money for 9 months a teaching. In fact she will probably only be in the classroom one more year before taking a state dept job. No complaints on this end on wages.
  • PanzerSlayer2PanzerSlayer2 Member Posts: 1,798 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
    /quote]Did your product ever just find out it was pregnant and still have to go to class? Did your product break up with its boyfriend/girlfriend, get beaten by mom or dad, live with an alcoholic, watch the family move to divorce? Does your product get to you and not even know how to read, or speak the language?

    Not you, the product itself. You're not dealing with an inanimate sales product here, it's an entirely different ballgame when you're dealing with people in this manner. Anyone who has ever tried to figure out why teenagers hate the world, and especially mom and dad, would understand the difference. It's easy when they are little, not so much when they hit puberty.

    Good product or not, all of yours are the same. Kids don't come that way.


    See that's exactly what I mean. I cannot say that my product is like that, but there is no guarantee that my customer doesn't die or my lead engineer doesn't get pregnant or whatever.

    The point is that there are so many things that are unfair and out of our control, yet they should not be offered up as an excuse that we didn't make goal. A goal is the target to earn an additional bonus. There should not be any expectation that it will be easy or guaranteed.
  • PanzerSlayer2PanzerSlayer2 Member Posts: 1,798 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by tr fox
    You do present some good logic there. However, one main difference between your situation and my wife's teaching situation is that I assume there are not many (if any) people within your organization that are purposely a drag on you and your sales efforts. In other words, I believe that any successful sales organization makes sure that their successful salespeople do not have any unnecessary roadblocks to their success. With my wife's teaching efforts there are numerous unnecessary roadblocks in her way as she attempts to do the best job she can.


    Logically you would think that but there are always bad managers, poor designers and other incompetents in any organiztion
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by PanzerSlayer2
    quote:Originally posted by tr fox
    You do present some good logic there. However, one main difference between your situation and my wife's teaching situation is that I assume there are not many (if any) people within your organization that are purposely a drag on you and your sales efforts. In other words, I believe that any successful sales organization makes sure that their successful salespeople do not have any unnecessary roadblocks to their success. With my wife's teaching efforts there are numerous unnecessary roadblocks in her way as she attempts to do the best job she can.


    Logically you would think that but there are always bad managers, poor designers and other incompetents in any organiztion


    Might be the best way to improve things is just for people to stop being teachers. As long as people (women mostly) are willing to go to college to become teachers, and then work like dogs usually for little or no appreciation (while the adminstrators who aren't even doing any work in the classroom get paid hugely) then in most places it will be more work than it is worth to be a teacher. (Not a college professor, but a school teacher)
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by select-fire
    quote:Originally posted by tr fox
    quote:Originally posted by PanzerSlayer2
    I'm not really sure how dumb kids in your class or bad parents or any of those other excuses really apply.

    In my sale ompany we get dealt with bad economy, the product sucks, or competitor is luring aways customers and yet there are no exceptions to my sales quotas and our profit sharing and bonues.

    I too have spent months putting together protoypes and sales proposals only to hae a prospective client bail. I will venture to say that I have spent more time in sales meetings, design sessions, traveling from my office to a customer to our manufacturing facilities, staying at lousy hotels, being delayed at airports and time away from home than any time a teacher puts into her class plan.

    A goal is set, either you meet it or you don't regardless of the hand you're dealt


    You do present some good logic there. However, one main difference between your situation and my wife's teaching situation is that I assume there are not many (if any) people within your organization that are purposely a drag on you and your sales efforts. In other words, I believe that any successful sales organization makes sure that their successful salespeople do not have any unnecessary roadblocks to their success. With my wife's teaching efforts there are numerous unnecessary roadblocks in her way as she attempts to do the best job she can.


    But pay my wife what a successful, highly paid salesman makes and not only will she continue to work like she has two jobs but I will quit my job and help her.


    My wife is very happy with what she makes Teaching. Bachelor, two Masters degree's, National Board Certification, and almost thru with her Ph.d. she makes great money for 9 months a teaching. In fact she will probably only be in the classroom one more year before taking a state dept job. No complaints on this end on wages.


    When my wife taught in the K.C., MO school district (elementary school) she made about $55,000.00 per year. And with her education and decades of experience, she was at the very, very top of the salary ladder. I don't personally know you or your wife, so would you comment or compare on that?
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,453 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Add a little over 21% to your figure for last year. Ph.d will add more.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by select-fire
    Add a little over 21% to your figure for last year. Ph.d will add more.


    Good pay. Maybe wife and I should move to SC.

    What's the rent-a-cop job market there like?[8D]
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,453 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bring it on. SC could use here experience and she would get a job instantly. Wifes pay is for elementary teaching. However part of that pay is National Board certification the state and district pays her. Security jobs are pretty plentifull.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by select-fire
    Bring it on. SC could use here experience and she would get a job instantly. Wifes pay is for elementary teaching. However part of that pay is National Board certification the state and district pays her. Security jobs are pretty plentifull.


    Roger that. However I was basically joking as wife and I are too old and too near being through with work to make a major move just for sake of our careers. I do kinda wish we were younger because with her education level and experience and with my nationwide certification and many years of experince in my line of work we both could now get good paying jobs about anywhere in the USA. Unlike when we were young and just starting out. Back then we had much fewer choices.
  • Queen of SwordsQueen of Swords Member Posts: 14,355
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
    quote:Originally posted by PanzerSlayer2
    I'm not really sure how dumb kids in your class or bad parents or any of those other excuses really apply.

    In my sale ompany we get dealt with bad economy, the product sucks, or competitor is luring aways customers and yet there are no exceptions to my sales quotas and our profit sharing and bonues.

    I too have spent months putting together protoypes and sales proposals only to hae a prospective client bail. I will venture to say that I have spent more time in sales meetings, design sessions, traveling from my office to a customer to our manufacturing facilities, staying at lousy hotels, being delayed at airports and time away from home than any time a teacher puts into her class plan.

    A goal is set, either you meet it or you don't regardless of the hand you're dealt
    Did your product ever just find out it was pregnant and still have to go to class? Did your product break up with its boyfriend/girlfriend, get beaten by mom or dad, live with an alcoholic, watch the family move to divorce? Does your product get to you and not even know how to read, or speak the language?

    Not you, the product itself. You're not dealing with an inanimate sales product here, it's an entirely different ballgame when you're dealing with people in this manner. Anyone who has ever tried to figure out why teenagers hate the world, and especially mom and dad, would understand the difference. It's easy when they are little, not so much when they hit puberty.

    Good product or not, all of yours are the same. Kids don't come that way.



    Respectfully, TR, I understand your sentiment, but the issue is, when you choose a career working with people, these are issues you have to deal with.
    These things are fact of life. While certainly disagreeable, they are facts.
    I work with the mentally retarded population, and certainly my job would be a whole heck of a lot easier if these people wouldn't make decisions and actions based on that. But that is what they do, and it is the best that they can do. I deal with it.
    Nobody forced me into my job, I chose it, so I deal with it. I don't expect special compensation for "hazzard pay" for the tough cases. You take the good with the bad.
    While certainly it would be preferable to have an entire caseload of "easy" cases, success stories, so to speak, that is an unrealistic expectation.
    I have a great deal of respect for teachers, most teachers, I should say, having worked in the school system, I've seen my fair share of good and bad. No disrespect to your wife.
    Back to the original post, I think this is crap. As it is, the entire school year is planned and taught around ensuring the class score well on the "standardized" tests. I've seen several otherwise intelligent child in the classrooms, who don't "test well," held back a grade, or sent to Sp. Ed., to avoid throwing off the grade's scores, and therefore reflect on the teacher ability.
  • dlrjjdlrjj Member Posts: 5,528 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    rcrxs, you may have missed the point of the post. There is no problem or complaint about the circumstances or the job. The only purpose is that it is very difficult to evaluate the quality of the job done when the product you are dealing with has so many variables.

    That is not an excuse for poor work, nor an appeal for sympathy, merely an observation as to why merit pay is a bit more difficult to work with in a job of that nature. It is impossible to just assign a number to a percent of achievement, or even improvement, as a criterion. Look at the kids you know and tell me how many of them progress on a predictable or enforceable schedule.

    None of this should be construed to be a complaint either for or against the pay, work load, working conditions, or degree of job difficulty of teaching. It is simply making the point that the job is near impossible to quantify in purely objective numbers, and that makes merit pay probably a poor idea in this profession.

    Johnny Cochran only won one case (as far as I know) in about eight months back in 1995 during the OJ Simpson farce. Does that mean he did a poor job because he only handled one case? Did someone who won five hundred parking ticket cases in the same time do a better job?[:)]
    Tax evasion is illegal, tax avoidance is an art form.
  • Queen of SwordsQueen of Swords Member Posts: 14,355
    edited November -1
    No, I don't think I missed the point of the post.
    My response was meant to highlight the "human" variable, which occurs in any career where contact with human beings is imenent, which, I believe, you agree upon. As my boss would say, "That's life, deal with it."
    It was also meant to highlight that teaching is one career where the teachers DO have some degree of control over the population to be sampled as an indication of their success, through recommendations to dismiss certain subjects from the acutal test population that they feel might jeopardize their results. I've seen it, it happens. While most teachers will vehemently deny this as a reason for retainment, such incentives as "merit bonuses" certainly would add to the incentive to do so for others.
    Teachers, as a population, regardless of my respect for them, are human, and no more immune from the failings of human nature as any other, such as greed.
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,453 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    rcrxs old lady, I bet you are great at fishing. Patience must be your middle name. I could not do your job.
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