In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
New tactic...Bust the door in, and yell POLICE.
Dennis Smith
Member Posts: 577 ✭✭✭✭
What would you do if someone in SWAT team clothes and yelling POLICE busted into your house? Here's an article from our newspaper today:
Five men who invaded a Collierville-area home, pretending to be police, didn't just beat a husband and wife Tuesday morning, they tortured the woman, a sheriff's report indicates.
"K. Perry advised that she was struck with a pool cue, poked with a fork, and had hot sauce poured into her eyes.
The Perrys were asleep about 3 a.m. when Michael Perry heard a loud noise in the living room.
Michael Perry rose to investigate and heard someone yelling "FBI!"
As he approached the door to their master bedroom, he was struck in the face by a handgun, handcuffed, had his feet taped together and was forced to get down on the floor.
While on the floor, he was struck several times with the butt of a handgun.
All five suspects wore black shirts bearing the word "police."
Katrina Perry also was hit in the back of her head with a handgun.
Then she was dragged through the home "while male blacks kept asking her where the money was," the report states.
The intruders attacked her with the pool cue, fork and hot sauce.
By Wednesday, Memphis police had found the couple's stolen luxury SUV but not their attackers.
http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/local_news/article/0,1426,MCA_437_3285665,00.html
Five men who invaded a Collierville-area home, pretending to be police, didn't just beat a husband and wife Tuesday morning, they tortured the woman, a sheriff's report indicates.
"K. Perry advised that she was struck with a pool cue, poked with a fork, and had hot sauce poured into her eyes.
The Perrys were asleep about 3 a.m. when Michael Perry heard a loud noise in the living room.
Michael Perry rose to investigate and heard someone yelling "FBI!"
As he approached the door to their master bedroom, he was struck in the face by a handgun, handcuffed, had his feet taped together and was forced to get down on the floor.
While on the floor, he was struck several times with the butt of a handgun.
All five suspects wore black shirts bearing the word "police."
Katrina Perry also was hit in the back of her head with a handgun.
Then she was dragged through the home "while male blacks kept asking her where the money was," the report states.
The intruders attacked her with the pool cue, fork and hot sauce.
By Wednesday, Memphis police had found the couple's stolen luxury SUV but not their attackers.
http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/local_news/article/0,1426,MCA_437_3285665,00.html
Comments
Don't do anything that I've allready done - That'd be just plain STOOOOOOPID.
No, we don't have many blacks here - but we don't have many armed robberies or extreme things like that here in Denmark.
Don't do anything that I've allready done - That'd be just plain STOOOOOOPID.
Do you have any room to spare for someone with a southern drawl?? I'm thinking about moving! [:)]
Don't do anything that I've allready done - That'd be just plain STOOOOOOPID.
On your mark-get set- go away!!
2. There was a serial rapist in California a few years ago that impersonated a CHP officer, getting women to stop by turning on a light similar to that used by CHP, then approaching the car,etc. So the problem would be how do you call time-out while you read the search warrant or verify a stranger's identity as all this is in progress?
If you're referring to the Carl Chessman case (The Red Light Bandit)
that was around fifty years ago so this is not a new problem in that respect.
If five men kick down your door in the middle of the night while you're asleep and start waving guns around, you've got a big problem, PERIOD.
Cops or not, if you're not a dangerous felon in that situation you have every legal right to immediately open fire and continue firing until every one of the assailants is down. There is no other reasonable way to interpret such an assault other than as an immediate violent threat to your life.
Even if they are cops, that doesnt give them the right to violently assault you in the middle of the night! If they improperly execute a warrant and get shot while threatening deadly force THAT'S THEIR PROBLEM. THEY are the ones who are supposed to be professionals, and if they are going to do something as high-stakes as a no-knock search in the middle of the night, they better be damn sure they hit the right address.
The problem is, particularly in the middle of the night with the element of suprise working against you, you aren't going to get the drop on five armed men intent on doing you harm. Even with the proverbial gun under your pillow, you're still groggy, in pajamas, eyes unadjusted to light, and outgunned 5-to-1.
The solution to this "problem" is probably a guard dog and better locks, not more rounds in your shotgun.
On your mark-get set- go away!!
Sometimes the robbers are going after drug dealers and sometimes they're going after 'rich' businessmen.
Years ago, most departments had a rule that the first one or two officers going through the door wore UNIFORMS. Now that isn't done anymore. They all wear 'raid gear,' hats with POLICE written on them, and raid jackets boldly printed POLICE. Gear that anyone can buy easily.
Then there's the problems of the real Police going to the wrong house or acting on bad information from an informant.
There was a case close to here several years ago where the officers were looking for a serial rapist. Acting on a tip from an informant, they went to a small house just outside their jurisdiction. The homeowners were an elderly couple in their 80's. They started kicking the front door in, waking the couple. The old man was hard of hearing and probably could not hear them yelling POLICE. (his hearing aid was found on his nightstand) The old man was walking down the hall when his front door was finally kicked in. He saw men coming in his home and started firing a revolver at them. He missed and they fired back, killing him instantly.
That incident was loaded with fups from the start:
1. The rapist had used a knife, not a gun, in his assaults. (Not much need for a no-knock entry when the suspect probably does NOT have a gun)
2. The 'informant' had not been proven as 'reliable' in the past.
3. The officers were out of their jurisdiction.
4. The officers did not even try to apply for a search warrant.
The family sued the PD and won. They reportedly got millions, but that's no consolation for what happened.
The officer 'in charge' of the incident didn't even get suspended for one day!
The officer that fired the fatal shot, a rookie, was cleared of any wrongdoing. ( the only part of the incident that was correct, in my opinion) He quit after the investigation was over. Later, he went to work for a local SO, but the nightmares, and questions in his mind about maybe having to use his weapon again, forced him to quit Police work altogether.
I can't speak for anyone else, but if my door gets kicked in in the middle of the night, my Glock's going to get some use. Hopefully, if its the 'good guys,' they'll retreat till things can be sorted out. And if it's the 'bad guys,' they'll retreat also, realizing they've picked out an armed citizen to attack.
"The Greatest Battle Implement Ever Devised!"
-- Gen. George S. Patton
referring to the M1 Garand
....2. There was a serial rapist in California a few years ago that impersonated a CHP officer, getting women to stop by turning on a light similar to that used by CHP, then approaching the car,...
Is this about the real CHP officer that would stop women and try to pick them up? He ended up throwing a girl off a bridge near Mira Mesa(San Diego area). He was caught, convicted and I believe still serving time.
[8D]God Beantown, 3;00 am and you think that your 9mm is defense against a Swat team?GROW UP -REALITY-[xx(][xx(][xx(][xx(]
On your mark-get set- go away!!
Sorry? What 9mm? What are you talking about?
I wasn't talking about the merits of a shotgun versus some other weapon.
I just said that if five guys with guns kick down your door at 3am you're @#$$ed. It doesn't matter if you've got a 9mm or an 1911 or an Uzi, or a shotgun, or an AK or a bazooka.
One sleepy guy vs. SWAT team. . .SWAT team wins. You draw on them. . .you die. You dig?
If I had to be there, yeah. . .I'd probably want the scattergun (assuming they didnt have vests. . .which if they were a SWAT team, of course they would). But given the choice, I'd rather a lesser gun, but a thicker door and dog(s).
***
Oh yeah. . .the "real" SWAT team would probably also toss in a half-a-dozen flash-bang concussion grenades to blind and deafen you before they came in with their machine guns waving around.
***
Daniel.
On your mark-get set- go away!!
Especially in serious cases, as in murder, armed robbery, etc. If you've got good intel and it's a hot case, you go whenever and as soon as you can.
I worked a homicide case over 20 years ago where we got the information late at night. By the time we got to the judge and got the search warrant, it was 5 am when we served it.
"The Greatest Battle Implement Ever Devised!"
-- Gen. George S. Patton
referring to the M1 Garand
Now, if they come to my house, they have to get by the Rottweiler who stays in at night. And does not take to strangers to well. And he isn't quiet, either. I will have plenty of advance notice. As for firepower in the bedroom...let's just say that 'safe' entry is not possible, and those that enter will be greeted with eight rounds of #3 buckshot followed up by 45 ACP. Wife will be dialing 911 as the fire fight continues.
It might sound paranoid, but as the old saying goes, "paranoia keeps you alive, worrying only gives you ulcers."
John
The original point and click interface was made by Smith & Wesson
"Paranoia drives you crazy, Preparation keeps you alive."
"The Greatest Battle Implement Ever Devised!"
-- Gen. George S. Patton
referring to the M1 Garand
Stupid question. Would a SWAT team (or any other agency) execute a search warrant at 3:00 AM?
Daniel.
Yup. It makes sense if you truly believe that the suspects may be armed and dangerous.
We're talking about the so-called "no knock" warrant, where armed police yell "open up. . . police" about 2 seconds before they kick down the door with guns drawn.
That practice, for obvious reasons, poses a real threat to both the ones receiving the warrant, as well as the ones executing them. Both innocent civilians, and police officers have been shot in these things.
Here's one piece on the practice (an anti- view):
http://www.fee.org/vnews.php?nid=4747
Daniel.
Sounds like a lose/lose situation. You can either (potentially) shoot a cop or get robbed or worse... No good answer to this one I guess.
Daniel.
My point was, the solution to this "problem" doesn't lie with guns AT ALL. Unless you're living in a Hollywood movie one person isn't going to outgun five people. (Particularly not if they are armored, have the element of suprise, night-vision goggles, and have vastly superior weapons and training).
The "solution" here is not to get caught unprepared by your door being kicked down in the first place.
It certainly won't come cheap, and it may not be practical for the average schmoe, but if you're really concerned about this kind of attack what you need are thicker doors, better locks, a security perimeter, better surveillance, guard dogs, armed guards, a "safe" room, etc.
quote:Originally posted by Flying Clay Disk
I would have started shooting the minute the door was broken in.
(starting with the #4's and going to the .45's)
If it's an actual police raid, and you don't have something semi-automatic in 7.62x39, .308, or .30-06 handy, you may as well surrender and hope for the best. I don't know what a "#4" is, but blazing away with a .45 will accomplish nothing.
I believe he's referring to #4 buckshot, which is a pretty good man-stopper (and arguably better than 00 buckshot due to more even spread, more wound channels, and less over-penetration). That wouldn't work on armor. . .but in the fantasy world where you outshoot the entire SWAT team (who besides having the element of suprise also have rifles), maybe you can score all head-shots so the armor is irrelevant.
The rifle rounds would beat the armor, but they'd also penetrate your walls, etc, and might endanger others in the house or neighborhood.
Even talking about this becomes increasingly more ridiculous, but if its just five bozos with pistols wearing mock-cop clothes (rather than trained armored equipped professionals), you might be able to clean them up with a scattergun or other weapon, particularly if you are well-prepared, they are tactically stupid and you have some sort of available cover and/or armor.
But if you're that clever and prepared, you've probably already made sure your door can't get kicked in by suprise.
Best thing to use, it will ruin everyone's day!!!!
Shop around they are out there around $85-$100 a pop.
Beware of your state & local laws, not leagal everywhere.
Got 1 in the nightstand with quick access to other stuff.
[:D]
walte
For those not informed "CS" is a military strength teargas.
Guarnteed to make you lose your lunch & cry like a baby.
Down side is it would take a week to clear out of your house!
Bunch of yahoos breaks my door down at 3am they are meeting a short black and nasty 12 gauge. Eight shots of that ought to buy me enough time to get to the gun room and break out the serious whipass.
I'm with you on this one. That's why at night time I keep a .45 pistol tucked in the edge of my bed.
Assuming that you are a law abiding citizen and there is NO reason for the POLICE to raid your home;
Its early in the morning.
You are in a deep sleep.
You may or not hear them yell POLICE and break down the door.
You will probably stir from the noise of the door being broken down.
by the time you realize what is going on they will be on you.
After they break down the door it'll be only seconds before the action begins.
NOTE: At this point, you don't know if they are real POLICE that made a mistake or bad guys.
You grap your home defense weapon and start to give warnings, shoot, whatever.
If they are real POLICE that made a mistake, they are wearing armour, are well trained, and you are greatly out gunned.
If they are really bad guys (like in the story) they may or not be wearing armor and are not well trained.
The problem;
If you have enough time, you yell that you are armed and for them to get out.
If its real POLICE, they are really on the alert now, worried about their own safety and are set to shoot to kill.
If its bad guys, they might leave or they are on the alert now and ready to shoot the first thing that moves.
It happens all too often where LEO's (locals, DEA, FBI, etc....) get bad info and break into the wrong address.
If they are real POLICE, you are dead. They have a lot more ammo than you have in you night pieces. And since they now have a real reason to be in fear of their lives, they have the legal right to shoot you dead.
You are screwed because they have armour, your are out gunned, they have night vision, or at least they were just not wakened up from a deep sleep, etc.
If they are real bad guys, you got a chance.
mkirkland is absolutely right. We are supposed to be free people. No knock warrants should have never been legalized.
No knocks were supposed to help the war on drugs because it was supposed to keep the bad guys from flushing the drugs down the toilet.
The war on drugs is and has been a joke for too long.