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Ho Chi-Minh nationalist or comunist

headzilla97headzilla97 Member Posts: 6,445
edited February 2004 in General Discussion
Before you jump down my throat I know he was a comunist, he was since 1920. After reading some books and listening in class I think he was a nationalist first then a comunist. Before he even got involved with the comunists he tried to seek help from Wilson In paris after WWI. after gathering a petition for a free vietnam, he tried to show it to Wilson after learning that wilson only cared about a free Europe and not ending colonialism else where around the world he turned to the comunists. Ho Read a phamplet by Lenin that sent him down the road ti die hard comunist, then he became the posterboy for comunism in indochina. I think Ho Chi-Minh only wanted to drive the French out of his country and get it back for his people he only used comunism as tool to reach that. whats ever one else think

We're men. Its our God given right to watch sports and smut" - Al Bundy
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Comments

  • trooperchintrooperchin Member Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Agreed. Apparently, in a nutshell, we screwed him over in the second world war also. We gave him some assistance fighting the Japs. However, once the war was over we left em to fend for themselves. The french came in and we got blamed for it. Or at least i think so.

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  • headzilla97headzilla97 Member Posts: 6,445
    edited November -1
    Trooper your right after WWII I was just to lazy to keep going,

    We're men. Its our God given right to watch sports and smut" - Al Bundy
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  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by headzilla97

    ...I think he was a nationalist first then a comunist.

    Can you think of a single communist leader who wasn't? For that matter, can you think of a single fascist or democratic leader who wasn't?
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  • mark christianmark christian Member Posts: 24,453 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What luck, first a question on the French in Algeria and now Viet Nam. I'm really geting some good use out of my old school papers (25 years after I wrote them!) My opinion is that Ho was always first and last a nationalist but he used whatever means were at hand to eliminate the French from his coutry. You are quite accurate in your understanding of Ho's attempt to enlist the aid of President Wilson at the end of WWI, but it was to no avail. During WWII the American OSS had a number of agents working in Japanese occupied IndoChina, one of whom, Paul Hoagland, saved Ho's life when he was ill with malaria and dysentary. Later one of Ho's most trusted confidants was American OSS field agent Maj. Archimedes (Archie) Patti who accompied French agent Jean Sainteny to Hanoi after the Japanese surrender to help repriate Allied POWs. Ho took an immeadiate liking to Patti and an instant dislike for Sainteny and Ho and Patti spoke for many hours about America (where Ho had once visited in his youth) as well as plans for drafting a new Vietnamiese declaration of Independence.

    Ho sent a letter addressed to President Truman in Washington back with Patti seeking American support for a new independent Viet Nam free from French influence. Patti had no authourity to contact the President directly and although Ho's letter was delivered to Truman through channels, the French return to South East Asia was already in the works as part of the greater NATO alliance between the Allies. Ho himself traveld to Paris in October 1946 in an attempt to gain greater independence for his coutry from the French and although some slight concessions were made, many of his hard core militants accused him of selling out to the French by signaling a possible settlement for less than total independence! By now things had gone too far for either side to back down and there was no turning back. The rest as they say is history! Ho was far from a hero and can be blammed directly for the deaths and suffering of hundreds of thousands of people, but there may well have been a chance to have avoided all of this if the United States had been willing to simply ignore the desires of the French to regain their overseas empire in exchange for French "assistance" in occupied Europe. These are only my own opinions...but I did get an "A" on the paper!

    Mark T. Christian
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  • bigdaddyjuniorbigdaddyjunior Member Posts: 11,233
    edited November -1
    Big Daddy Sr.s Zippo inscription says it all,"F@#% Ho Chi Minh!"

    Big Daddy my heros have always been cowboys,they still are it seems
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  • rcdisrcdis Member Posts: 994 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Also the communist line sounds good,all for the people,etc., and Viet Nam was in a plantation type economy, a few owned most of the land. Ho was for land reform and giving the land to the people. That is one of the reasons he appealed to the U.S. Wasn't the U.S. interested in the welfare of the common people, as he was. His main goals seemed to be to drive out foreign rule and to bring about land reform, is this nationalism or communism?

    Also Mao Tse-tung also applied to the U.S. for help and was rebuffed. How would things be different if the U.S. had given him support in China?

    rcdis
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  • ElMuertoMonkeyElMuertoMonkey Member Posts: 12,898
    edited November -1
    I'm not even sure Ho Chi Minh ever read Marx. I know for a fact that Mao never did... he just had a copy of the writings of Marx and Lenin in his bookshelf for appearance's sake.
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  • headzilla97headzilla97 Member Posts: 6,445
    edited November -1
    Ho studied in russia for a few years so he must have read marx

    We're men. Its our God given right to watch sports and smut" - Al Bundy
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  • bluegoose11bluegoose11 Member Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sorry guys you can make ho out to be the poor guy I dont go there I lost to many friends to that little poor mistreated guy I strongly agree with Big Daddy Sr.'s lighter sounds like he did too
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  • mark christianmark christian Member Posts: 24,453 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ho first visited the USSR in 1924 and during this time Ho attented what was then known as the University of Oriental Workers, which was a sort of accademy for Asian insurgents and of course heard the teachings of Marx and Lenin (who had recently died). Ho met with Stalin, Trotski, and otehr Soviet leaders during this time but semed less than impressed with what he saw in the USSR when compared to the year he spent in New york in 1913 as well as London and his many years in Paris. Ho spent considerable time traveling abroad including long stays in Bangkok, Hong Kong, Canton, the Mediterranian, Africa and a return to Moscow in 1927 and several more trips to the USSR during the 1930's...including a memerable trip on the Trans-Siberian railroad! Interestingly while Ho was abroad his compatriots like Pham Van Dong and Le Duc Tho remained in Viet Nam as dissedents and spent years on the prison island of Poulo Condore held in inderground cells in conditions of misery. Ho escaped such torture by staying out of Viet Nam for long periods...nice work if you can get it!

    So Mr. Goose, my statement which blamed Ho for the needless deaths and suffering of hundreds of thousands of innocent people lead you to believe that I some how felt sorry for him? Interesting way of looking at it.

    Mark T. Christian
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  • allen griggsallen griggs Member Posts: 35,511 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ho was a nationalist first, communist second.
    Ho hated China a lot more than he hated the US.
    Tragically, American foreign policy in the '50s was unable to understand the nuances of the different communist countries. All we could see was one big communist menace. This misunderstanding of the communist movement was what led to the disaster in Vietnam.
    Kennedy and Johnson meant well, but we should have never sent one troop to that hell hole.
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  • BlackieBoogerBlackieBooger Member Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    From what I have read Ho Chi Minh spent time in Russia and became a communist when he was younger. Ho and Vietnam were aare allies during WWII and helped fight the Japanese. Supposedly Ho was promised by Truman that they could become an independent country after WWII and be free from French imperialist rule. Ho in fact cited part of our Declaration of Independence in his desire to set up a democracy government. Truman was pressured by our French ally w in helping them to retain Vietnam has a colony. Ho turned to China and Russia to fight the French. It is possible that if Vietnam had be allowed to become an independent state as promised the Vietnam War may never happened. I believe like most of the others that Ho was a nationalist first.

    "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, not liberty to purchase power."
    Benjamin Franklin, 1785
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  • Shootist3006Shootist3006 Member Posts: 4,171
    edited November -1
    I am going to take a slightly disparate view as I don't believe that there needs be a distinction between being a nationalist vs. a communist. I believe that uncle Ho was both - equally! From his writings in the 20's and 30's and from the friends and allies he surrounded himself with, there is no doubt as to his communism.

    It is simplistic (and more than a little naive) to believe that Truman could have simply said "OK Ho, you can get Vietnam" (then called French Indochina) into the Soviet camp right at the start of the cold war.

    NRA ENdowment, CRPA Life, NRA ILA EVC, Past President NRA Members Council
    Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem. Semper Fidelis
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  • pack rat633pack rat633 Member Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sooo, we can blame France for all our problems since they helped us in 1776? COOL!!! I never did like them frenchies, and you can't trust 'em to be anything but for themselves, not even necessarly for their c ountry[}:)]

    SEMPER FI MAC, SEMPER FI
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  • Jody CommanderJody Commander Member Posts: 855 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    All things academic are academic. To put it another way, to discuss the impact of actions done and undone by individuals no longer alive or pertinent is conjecture, conjecture is subjective,there can be no answer or decision,effort that could be better utilized in programming your T.V./VCR to tape the Anna Nicole Smith anthology.
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