Polygraphs ???

azgunnut2@yahoo.com

O.K. , this was a topic on the "ask the experts" that got locked ...
I have been a LEO (as well as a gun dealer/gunsmith/armorer) for 23
years now...Ive only taken One (1) of these polygraphs (required as
pre-employment @ a dept. I worked)....They are correct in stating that some people cannot pass them , some can , and a lot of it has to do with the examiner and The Questions !!!! example : the question -
have you ever stolen anything ??? what a loaded question ??? of course
all of us (as kids) have stolen something , but if asked this during a
polyghrph , you have admitted as to being a THIEF !!!! another good
(or bad) point is : the examiner is the one who "reads" the results of
your polygragh , it is a bunch of squigly lines on a paper ,period ...
so he could say that you are a green three eyed 9 foot alien , and say
taht the proof in in the test !!!! as advised by two real good and
close friends of mine that I grew up with (both are now ambulance
chasing attorneys!), Do Not Ever Take a Polygraph !!!! unless it is
reqiured for pre-employment...I took one (1) , and "passed" , I will
not say that I lied , but....these things Do Not Work !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Join / Support the NRA
Guns are my friends !!!

nunn

They might as well hire a psychic with Tarot cards to give you a reading prior to employment. It would be just as accurate.

Come to think of it, so would flipping a coin. Polygraphs in controlled studies have been shown to be only about 51% accurate.

Their use should be OUTLAWED in this country for any purpose whatsoever.

SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the best gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net

gruntled

Just be sure to go to confession & say your "Hail Marys" before you take the test.

idsman75

Polygraphs do not give pass/fail results. The poligraph outputs "sqiggly" lines on a piece of paper that indicate changes in your pulse, sweat glands and breathing patterns. The manner in which a polygraph session is conducted depends upon the purpose of the polygraph and the information that the poligrapher is supposed to glean from the session. Whether or not a poligraph "works" depends solely on the skill and experience of the poligrapher because he/she is the one that must formulate the appropriate questions and interpret the results. In order to get the necessary information a certain degree of rapport must be developed with the interviewee. The responses of the body depend upon the mindset of the subject of the polygraph. For example, you may feel that you killed someone in a lawful manner and feel that you were justified in doing so. If the poligrapher asks you if you murdered that individual you may not register any significant changes in your breathing/pulse/perspiration due to the fact that murder is the unlawful taking of a life. The poligraph machine does what it is intended to do. You may have had a complete idiot formulating the questions asked and doing the interpreting. I volunteered to be a guinea pig for poligraphers-in-training at the polygraph institute that was once located at Fort McClellan, AL while I was going through Military Police school. In the morning I was polygraphed by a DEA agent. Prior to the polygraph I filled out a fake security clearance form and intentionally lied about the county where I was born. It took this guy FOREVER to figure out what I was concealing due to the fact that he was in training and had little experience on the job. As a result I missed lunch and he had to buy me Burger King. In the afternoon I was polygraphed by an FBI agent. I wanted to get this over quickly so I visualized one of the most emotionally significant events in my life and replayed it in my head over and over again when he got to the question about the county where I was born. I could hear the little pins going NUTS as they registered changes in my breathing/pulse/perspiration. This session was over quite quickly. However, he kept on going back to the question about whether or not I had ever committed a "serious crime" which he defined as rape/murder/robbery etc. I have never done any of these things but I have a very guilty conscience. I may have had a minor infraction running through my head (i.e. spraypainting my name on a bridge as a young teen) when he asked this question. That is probably why he kept going back to it. During other "guinea pig" sessions they would have people go into a dim room and drive a knife into the back of a very realistic mannequin. They were told to visualize murdering someone as they did it. This was enough to register a change on the polygraph machine. Even the world's greatest poligraphers are often stumped. That is one of the reasons why poligraph test results are not admissable in court. The actual purpose of a poligraph, in most cases, is to get the subject to confess criminal activity. It is like throwing a damning piece of evidence before the subject of an interrogation. That is why many of the best polygraphers are also EXCELLENT interrogators. A good poligrapher will get a confession before the poligraph is even administered.

Evil ATF

Polygraphs are easy to beat once you have identified the different types of questions you're going to be asked, how to identify what classification of question the examiner is asking, then how to load your response properly.

I had a fantastic online book for beating polygrpah's. I'll dig it out of my computer and post it here once it's found.

Gimme a couple hours or a day.

Stand And Be Counted

idsman75

Evil ATF--I don't doubt what you say but how do you "load" your responses when most polygraphs are administered in such a way that you can only answer "yes" or "no"? I've only seen closed-ended questions asked on a polygraph

P.S. How's BATF doing? How did his birthday bash go? You didn't catch him trying to spike the punch did you?

S&W Man

I can tell you this much from personal experience. Polygraphs are crap!!!! I took one once for part of a job application. I was told that I could not be hired because the polygraph showed that "I lied" when I answered a question about using "illegal drugs". I said I did not and they said the test showed I lied. they said I was ok everywhere else. Well, when I was 15 I had my first round with phlebitis and because of that medical condition, I cannot even use some prescription medecines. I never used drugs or liquor, so I know how accurate those polygraphs are.

The second admendment GUARANTEES the other nine and the Constitution!

DancesWithSheep

Another problem with Polygraph testing is that it is unable to accommodate "situational" truth (i.e., how an interviewee stands in relation to the question). For example, suppose you are delusional and believe that it is raining outside, when in fact it is sunny. The polygrapher asks, "Is it sunny outside?", and you reply "No".

Now from where you sit, you are telling the truth; but from where the polygrapher sits, you are telling a lie. The question is: What will the polygraph show?



Why does man kill? He kills for food. But not only for food; frequently, he must have a beverage.

Bushobi

polygraphs aren't worth beans and results not admissible in court unless stipulated to...one officer I new took one and failed on a controlled question (one in which you are supposed to give the wrong reply)..another officer friend took on and was asked "have you ever taken a bribe?".. he replied "No" and it showed he lied..the last question on the test asked "Were you trufly in all your answer?" he replied "Yes" and the polygraph operator went back to the question on the bribe and asked what he was thinking about when asked about the bribe...he stated "Free Coffee".. he was truthful in the answers but thinking of something else...best answer to give when asked to take one is..."I don't beleve in them and will not stipulate to the results of the test."

Bushobi

Sorry bout that spelling..long week-end...that word trufly should have been truthful..they say if you dont make mistakes you dont do anything..(IM overworked)

n/a

In many cases, it makes a guilty person out of an innocent one

"A wise man is a man that realizes just how little he knows"

bhale187

My brother, brother-in-law, and I all have taken a polygragh. All three of us had different operators and machines, but the same general questions. Knowing the responses I gave and the responses my brothers said they gave I must say polygraphs do not work or else the operators and/or machines in all three instances were not very good ones. All three of us knew the questions that would be asked ahead of time, but did not know the order of the questions and the exact wording of the questions was changed slightly.

BTW Anyone see the program a few months back on 60minutes, 20/20, or some other similar news show about this doctor/scientist who came up with a lie detector that scans brain waves to detect lies? They hook up a bunch of electrodes to your head and supposedly this doctor says you can detect truth or lie, by the occurance of electrical activity in certain parts of the brain when you answer.

Nighthawk

This is a no win answer,but our Dept.and many others rely on them.But why is it if a suspect passes a lie Detector test he is no longer a suspect.It is not used as evidence in Court,but Its easy to tell if someone is lieingby there pulse change,as someone mentioned.And as for the questions they dont ask have you ever stolen anything.The question may be have you stolen anything in the last 6 Months for example.As I said before a Polygraph alone has never found anyone guilty,but it has found some people not Guilty.Besides why would you want to lie to began with.For employment purposes it goes like this/Have you ever used illegal Narcotics/have you used them with in the last six months?If you havent used them within six months your ok,as long as your honest.Besides thats the only thing they want is Honesty.Dont lie they will detect it.I can tell if someone is lieing to me by watching them and there actions 9/10 times.

Rugster


Toujours Pret

doomsknight62

An interesting discussion, really. My friend is still worried, and I'm starting to get that way. You know, it seems silly for police departments to rely on something that doesn't work half the time! I don't know...I just don't want someone I know ( who would make an EXCELLENT police officer ) to get excluded for something that happened long ago. Nor do I want all of MY hard work to go to waste. I finally got off my rear and started college with intentions of getting a criminal justice degree. I've lost 67 pounds and I am in better shape now than I ever have been.
As far as the questions go...I did a lot of stupid stuff when I was younger- we all did. What kind of things do they ask when you go apply? Any of you LEOs out there...what kind of things did they make you answer before they hired you? It's just confusing for someone on the outside trying to get in.
Anyway...ANY input you guys can give would make about 2 or 3 people feel a lot better about their chances of making it into police work!

" God is in His Heaven, All is Right in the World. "

ccasey612

I read that in Philadelphia they do not make folks take the test at all anymore. Hopefully it should rubb off soon.

If you will blame gun makers for every shooting then blame car maker for every car accident.

Evil ATF

Ids:

Thanks for asking! The party was a lot of fun. I'll post some more pictures of Baby ATF demolishing his birthday cake if people are interested in seeing them.

As to beating polygraphs, here's some informative sites:

PassAPolygraph.Com A commercial site dedicated to selling books on beating polygraphs. Good stuff, but you can get the same information for free at the next link:

AntiPolygraph.Org This is the stuff for beating a polygraph. Enjoy! Chapter 4 is particularly enlightening.

You Can't Beat A Polygraph This website is Pro-Polypgraph and states that polygraph's are unbeatable. This is a complete lie. I've done it myself. I just added this link for informational purposes.

Hope this helps!

(Edited For Clumsy Fingers --Evil)


Stand And Be Counted

Edited by - Evil ATF on 08/26/2002 15:12:38

doomsknight62

Thanks, Evil_ATF. This information looks at least promising. It will be interesting to hear what other people say about it, though.

" God is in His Heaven, All is Right in the World. "