A question of scatter?

E.Williams

I have been considering buying a new shotgun.I am wondering about the scatter.I have been using a Savage Springfield 67 w/ 26" barrel my parents bought me for a birtday but I have been noticing that it doesnt start to scatter till around 35 feet.I only use the shotgun for home defense and feel 35 feet for scatter is not what I am looking for.I want something that will scatter within around 10-15 feet.What is my best bet choke or open bore?I am considering a Winchester Defender 12 gauge w/ 18" barrel.Would I get good scatter with this gun and a paticular choke or should I go with a cut down to 18" 10 gauage?Re-coil isnt a problem but what would be better for devastating scatter?I have a 10 gauge double barrel but cannot cut it down so if it was a 10 gauge it would be a single shot.The Winchester has as 8 shot capcity but would I need that many after that first 10 gauge blast?Thanks fellas.

Eric S. Williams

Edited by - E.Williams on 08/14/2002 01:39:02

Shootist3006

This is what you need



Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis

101AIRBORNE

SHOOTIST .30 GOVT 06,
Is that a duck something? Williams, you will scatter yourself
with a 10 magnum. I do believe a pump gun is probably the best for home defense. Just the sound should "scatter" an intruder. A mag,
come on, think about it...duh. If I had to be concerned, a pump .12
would be my choice. Do not need a home defense arm and I have a (01)
FFL. I would be concerned about children, family members, exit point past walls, etc. A shotgun is perhaps the best defensive arm and will
probably not go thru cheap dry wall. If I was that concerned, I would move. 101

Shootist3006

101st, yes, that is the duckfoot pistol. Since Eric wants 'scatter' at 10 feet, this is the only gun I know of that will do that.
Eric, shotguns (even with 0 choke - cylinder bore) will not open their pattern more than an inch or two at 10 - 15 feet. At 35 feet (7 yards) most will still be holding at 6 to 10 inches. This is true regardless of gauge, a 28-gauge choke pattern is almost identical to a 10 gauge, the only difference is that the 10 gauge's pattern is denser - (more pellets).


Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis

Gordian Blade

E.Williams, listen to what Shootist3006 says, he knows what he's talking about. Even if he does keep posting pictures of that damned Duckfoot and the Garand if they are remotely applicable to the topic.

On the recommendation of a knowledgeable gun shop owner, now deceased, I bought a Mossberg pump shotgun for home defense with the shortest barrel allowed by law (18.5). I got it with the pistol grip originally, then I decided that although it looked cool, it would shoot better with a regular stock. Fortunately, it was easy to buy one and replace the pistol grip. I think now they only sell with both. The short barrel is for making it swing around easier in tight quarters, not for better scatter. As Shootist3006 indicated, the pattern isn't going to open up much at typical home distances. If I ever want to use it for something else, the barrels on it change quickly and easily. It isn't pretty but it gets the job done.

Harleeman1030

Eric,

We have the mossberg 20 gauge cut down to 18.5,...Wife shoots it really well and since i am gone a lot i feel no need for anything else..We have # 4 shot in it at all times with 6 shells ...She says if i ain't hit his but in 5 might scare him off thinking i have a lot more lol....her sence of humor comes from living with me

Harleeman1030@aol.com

nunn

That is why Mossberg put a "spreader choke" on their home defense shotguns. It was simply a steel tube of much larger diameter than the barrel that was welded on the end of the barrel. The idea was to get some reasonable spread at across-the-room distances.

SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the best gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net

Gordian Blade

nunn, that's interesting about the "spreader choke" -- I don't see that in their current catalog. The home defense shotgun I bought has just a straight tube.

nunn

I had one in .410 for a little while. It was murder on clay targets out to about 15 yards.

SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the best gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net

Judge Dread

19 inch GB rifled slug B the rifling gives the savot spin and you will have a water hose spread pattern .....

But be carefull this can redecorate a full room with a single shot.

stay on pump action 12G ...

JD

400 million cows can't be wrong ( EAT GRASS !!! )

The firearms consultant

Check out a Mossberg 590 with Ghost Ring sights, cylinder bore.
The sights are great!

I might not always tell you the truth, but I will never lie to you!

E.Williams

I was meaning yards not feet I dont know why I put feet.My 12 starts its spread at about 35 yards.I want something like what Mr.Nunn is talking about,something that will open its pattern very quickly.The 10 gauge isnt that bad...duh I have a old double barrel 10 gauge my grandfather gave me when I was younger but the barrels are 30"'s and I cant cut on it.I always looked at the 10gauge like the 3.5"magnum 12gauge just with a few more pellets packed in there.I like the pump for home defense too I was wondering if a shrt barreled open bore 10 would let out a faster larger spread than a choked 12 gauge.Out of the Winchester Defender w/18"brl and 8shots and the Mossberg Persuasder w/18 1/2barrel and six shot and pistol grip which is the better shotgun?There is a $20.00 price difference of the 2.And FYI Im in the process of getting into another house out in the boonies and I dont have to worry about my kids if I have to shoot in my house with anything but a Hi caliber rifle. because of our lay-out.Thanks.

Eric S. Williams

E.Williams

I was meaning yards not feet I dont know why I put feet.My 12 starts its spread at about 35 yards.I want something like what Mr.Nunn is talking about,something that will open its pattern very quickly.The 10 gauge isnt that bad...duh I have a old double barrel 10 gauge my grandfather gave me when I was younger but the barrels are 30"'s and I cant cut on it.I always looked at the 10gauge like the 3.5"magnum 12gauge just with a few more pellets packed in there.I like the pump for home defense too I was wondering if a shrt barreled open bore 10 would let out a faster larger spread than a choked 12 gauge.Out of the Winchester Defender w/18"brl and 8shots and the Mossberg Persuasder w/18 1/2barrel and six shot and pistol grip which is the better shotgun?There is a $20.00 price difference of the 2.And FYI Im in the process of getting into another house out in the boonies and I dont have to worry about my kids if I have to shoot in my house with anything but a Hi caliber rifle. because of our lay-out.Thanks.

Eric S. Williams

offeror

Well, you can check the used market if they don't make the spread chokes anymore. That's the first I'd heard of one. Any choke other than that one is designed to reduce scatter, so your best second choice is going to be a cylinder bore on a short barreled gun, 18" or so. You're going to want to use about a #8 bird shot rather than double-ought buck for best spread in a small area. #8 is plenty good for home defense under the conditions you describe, and the number of shot and lighter weight of particles in the load should guarantee quicker spread in a short distance and better coverage within the spread area. To test this for yourself, you can use an old bedsheet hanging on an outdoor clothesline.

The only way to legally get a shorter barrel for shotshells is to shoot CCI snake shot out of a handgun, or use a handgun that will accept shotgun rounds, like .410 rounds. It's actually not a bad idea. The snakeshot is pretty light for what you're talking about, but it should slow 'em down pretty good in a .44 special or .45 ACP.

Again, go to the used market, maybe a good gun show, for a spread choke. I would.



- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878

offeror

By the way, I sometimes prefer #1 shotshells to double-ought buck. Instead of 8 or 9 .33 caliber pellets, #1 gives you about fifteen .30 caliber pellets.

- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878

offeror

By the way, I sometimes prefer #1 shotshells to double-ought buck. Instead of 8 or 9 .33 caliber pellets, #1 gives you about fifteen .30 caliber pellets. Agghhh. Double-tap. Sorry.

- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878

Edited by - offeror on 08/14/2002 14:49:33

allen griggs

Offeror, I agree. The #8 will penetrate walls less than the #4. And inside the house the #8 from a 12 gauge is a man killer to beat the band. As a paramedic several times I saw a guy hit with #8 at close range. It was time to call the coroner.

"Not as deep as a well, or as wide as a church door, but it is enough."

Txs

When you say home defense, I assume you mean you'd like a shotgun that will pattern well at typical indoor distances. I did some extensive testing with different barrel length 12 gauge shotguns several years ago and found that an 18in. cylinder bored barrel will give you just about the widest possible pattern at this range.

Even a pump action shotgun with the barrel cut to the magazine (12in.)won't give you any wider pattern under about 30ft. than an 18in. barrel will. Those 2ft. wide holes you see blown through doors with a sawed off shotgun in the movies are a Hollywood myth. You're not going to get more than a few inches of spread at these ranges without going to a 12 gauge handgun.

The good part about this is that a 2-3in. pattern of any size shot causes what's known as a rat hole wound. Yes, birdshot will serve your purposes well at close range.

allen griggs

I like that Txs, a rat hole wound.

"Not as deep as a well, or as wide as a church door, but it is enough."

Judge Dread

Use a "rifled" piston barrel (the ones used for slugs) and you will see what Hollywood uses for thoose "Special" effects ....


JD

400 million cows can't be wrong ( EAT GRASS !!! )

offeror

I've heard the rat hole term, and indeed the pattern to be expected indoors is about baseball size. Judge seems to be suggesting a rifled bore would spread the shot quicker. I've never tried it, but if this is a valid effect, I'd be interested in hearing more about it. What do folks think of a rifled barrel (most deer guns seem to have relatively short barrels, so that't not a major issue) for use with shotshells and defensive use? Are they just for slugs, or will they handle shot for defense as well? If so, it might be nice to have a tactical shotgun with short rifled slug barrel, maybe a nice ghost ring sight, for use with slugs for cardoor penetration or shot for home defense.

- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878

218Beekeep

I don`t care for pistol grips
on my forend/slide handle,
or cut off stocks.

I took the oldest of several
mossbergs I own,the one with
the slickest,well warn in action..
and but on a ported rifle sighted,
smooth bore slug barrel for my home
protection gun.Plus it`s ready to
dear hunt,as well..not likely,with
my Dearslayers and such at hand,
but I like versatility.

.218

E.Williams

218Beekeeper does thsat slug bsarrel scatter pellets better than as normal barrel?Or are you shooting slugs for Home Defense?

Eric S. Williams

218Beekeep

I meant to say Deerslayers,not "Dearslayers".

.218

218Beekeep

#8 Bird shot Eric,it scatters a lot more,
simular to the defender etc.

No slugs in the house,brother,got kids in
the house!

.218

Did sombody say somethin` about bees?

218Beekeep

Eric,I got the idea your 67 has a full
or mod choke ...that makes a big difference.

I don`t know if it came up,but it will say
"Full" or "Mod on your 67 barrel.

.218

E.Williams

By Defender do you meen the Winchester Defender?I ask because thats what I was looking at buying I like the Mossberg but that Winchester Defender looks pretty good.

Eric S. Williams

218Beekeep

Yeah,that`s what I meant,the Win. Defender,
the Moss Mariner,The Rem. Marine..they all
are gunna scatter the same,with the simular
barrel on all of them..all it is,is a piece
of pipe with shot flyin` out the end.

There all gunna have a simular choke as my
settup,..but with a couple inches longer,mine
will scatter ever so much less.

.218

E.Williams

218 the only thing I have on my barrel is:Springfield Model 67 series E 12GA.3"Chamber Savage Arms Westfield,Ma U.S.A then it has a P and a V eteched into the barrel the P is right where the receiver meets the barrel and the V is under the barrel by the Action Bar.It also has the letter 18 inside a circle etched on top of the barrel has I right next to that and 6SP in a stamp.Do any of these letters translate into some kind of code for a choke?

Eric S. Williams

218Beekeep

I`m tired,and sleepy...I meant slightly less scatter,but not noticeable.

.218

218Beekeep

They usually say FULL,MOD,IMP...or these thingies *(full) **(mod.) ***(improved cylinder)

Are there any of these * ** *** ?

.218

P.S. It really is irrelevant(?),
but good to knofor future refference.

E.Williams

Those are the only markings I see anywhere on the barrel or receiver.

Eric S. Williams

Txs

With an 18in. barrel at typical indoor distances (under 30ft.), a rifled barrel will give no wider pattern than a cylinder bored smoothbore. At longer ranges it will open a shot pattern up a bit more, but not much. The down side of using shot in a rifled bore is that it throws a patchy, inconsistent donut shaped pattern with more shot around the edges than in the center.

Lighter shot makes very little difference in pattern size under about 30 feet, like maybe 3.5 in. compared to 3.0 in. As I said in my earlier post, you're not going to get a pattern more than a few inches wide from any 12ga. under about 30 ft. regardless of what shot size you use. Beyond this range, where the pattern begins to open up, lightweight shot opens a little faster than heavy buckshot. Not much, but a little.

The pattern size from a cylinder bored barrel increases on sort of a bell shaped curve as the range increases. In other words, just because you get a 10in. pattern at 15yds. it doesn't mean you'll get a 20in. pattern at 30yds. For example, a 12in. barrel will stay tight out to 10yds. and then open up to around 3ft. at 15 yds. If you back off to 25 yds. the pattern will cover a good sized wall. Don't ask me why it works this way, I just noted results.

kalifornian

I just shot my new Mossberg 500 combo 12ga pump at the range today. I used the 18" rifled slug barrel and Federal Premium Personal Defense shot (1 1/4 oz of #2 shot in a 2 3/4" shell).

At 20 feet, the longest I would ever likely need for indoor home defense, the shot spread was nearly a foot (8-10in). That area of the target was saturated with little BB sized holes and the spread was as much as I would ever want in order to avoid collateral damage.

My friend bought the same gun, same ammo, and at 25yards said that the spread was 2 1/2 feet.

The box on the ammo adverstised "optimized patterns provide greater effectiveness at close range" and "special tailored shot load optimizes penetration".

I'm not sure if it's the gun, the shot or all of the above but I am very satisfied with my results. The guy that sold me the ammo said I would get minimal penetration through walls and that it would deliver a devasting wound with good spread at close range.

Give it a try and see what you think. I paid $7.95 for 10 shotshells.



So many guns, so little money . . .

E.Williams

Im gonna check those out.

Eric S. Williams