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Why the NRA should support Cannabis Reform

Josey1Josey1 Member Posts: 9,598 ✭✭
edited July 2002 in General Discussion
Why the NRA should support Cannabis Reform

"Suspending cannabis prohibition would save lives, free up tremendous law enforcement resources, and help defend the American Way".

xxdr_zombiexx

July 4,2002

Part I

People who feel strongly about protecting the 2nd amendment, especially those concerned about the implications of the USA PATRIOT act, need to take notice of what is happening in the War on Cannabis.

More than take notice, actually. I suggest they might want to "get up to speed" on what is happening, the history of it, and what is at stake. What is at stake is the integrity of the constitution and the Bill of Rights.



Cannabis Prohibition is a giant iceberg that is blacked out from commercial media. You never see or hear the term used on TV or in the Newspapers. What YOU hear is "war on drugs, war on drugs, war on drugs". 95% of the money and effort and law enforcement resources expended in the war on some drugs is spent on cannabis prohibition. The "War on Drugs" is a veil for the war against cannabis, which, in turn, is a veil for the Federal Government to disassemble the Bill of Rights so they can have more power than is granted to them by "The Rules".

The world is not getting any bigger and this "iceberg" makes waves that affect people who have nothing to do with, or know anything about, "cannabis culture" (a term meaning all people who express some sort of identification or relationship with the cannabis plant, except for the DEA: the KKK of cannabis culture.). It's goal is to suspend the Bill of Rights, which is the focus of this article.


Is Cannabis a bigger threat than "Terrorism"?

Several times since 9/11/01, the FBI and the DEA have raided - assaulted, stormed, attacked - medical cannabis "clubs" which operate within the boundaries of the Law 215 in the State of California.

On February 12th, 2002, a day we were all supposed to be on a Terrorism High Alert, they attacked the Harm Reduction Center in San Francisco, blowing up it's front door with dynamite. (see: Press Release) This event was coordinated with 2 other raids, staged for as a show of force for an appearence at the Commonwealth Club, just a few blocks away, by the DEA's head, Asa Hutchinson. No other terrorist activities were ever reported on that day.

Cannabis must be a pretty big threat to America, huh?

The medical marijuana crowd is largely composed of seriously disabled or terminally ill people, not well-trained healthy terrorists. They cannot, with a straight face, be presented as a "menace" to the USA, though thats exactly what the Government intends to do.


Assault on the Bill of Rights

This is a State's Rights issue, involving violations of the 9th and 10 Amendments (Bill of Rights linked below). The People of California and Oregon, and elsewhere, have voted for certain persons to have access to cannabis for medical reasons. The War on Cannabis provides a mechanism to encourage Federal Agencies to Disassemble Every Amendment, along with encouraging rigging of the election processes in States that have yet to pass such laws.( See:Governor's plot to subvert election in Ohio) The Federal Government must establish Supremacy in a court of law before California's medical cannabis law can be said to be invalid.

Towards that end, the first Federal "No Such Thing as Medical Marijuana" trial has begun in San Francisco. The Federal Government has already succeeded in preventing any mention of "medical use of marijuana" in the court case. The defendant may not use the State Law as a defense. The Judge has gone to the point of bussing jurors so they wont see and hear cannabist activists telling them about it.(story and links: Jurors in Medical Marijuana Case To Be Shielded Excercise - search for "Epis Trial" to see what you find. The case, typically, is not reported in mainstream press despite its massive importance. All very sneaky-like, ya know.)

What happens in court with the War on Cannabis bleeds over into non-cannabis issues in the form of interpreted legal precedents, which more and more are specifically sought and crafted to provide boxcar-sized loopholes around the Constitution. (See: ASHCROFT V. OREGON)

As drugs are the shoehorn used to get numerous rulings that allow Law Enforcement to cut corners in terms of Constitutional Safeguards, so have The Attacks been used quickly "pass" (ramrod through the established political process) the USA PATRIOT Act. This Act more than merely gives law enforcement what it has wanted for years while labling any dissenter as "unpatriotic". (I dissent: Do I seem unpatriotic?) It frees the FBI and law enforcement to do things they were specifically prevented from doing in the 1970's because much of their effort was aimed at peaceful Americans and subverting the Democratic Process, not bringing down organized criminals or thwarting terrorist networks.

It brings the "average American" closer to the "constant target of police intervention" mentality experience that partly defines Cannabis Culture. Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you.


Catch a Wave:


"Guns and Terror: How Terrorists Exploit Our Weak Gun Laws," was released at a news conference on Capitol Hill, at which Senators Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), Richard Durbin (D-Ill.) and Jack Reed (D-R.I.) and Representative Henry Waxman (D-Calif.) called for stronger U.S. gun laws as a critical component of homeland security.

"This report makes one thing crystal clear: terrorists and guns go together," said Michael D. Barnes, President of the Brady Center. "Firearms are part of the essential tool kit of domestic and foreign terrorists alike.

(see: Brady Center Press Release 12/19/2001)


See? .... told you. Guns = Terrorism.

Welcome Aboard, fellow terrorists!

Consider the Brady Center statement in context with this report from a recent Reason Magazine issue:


[A] freshly invigorated gun control movement is preparing to act. Armed with a few questionable studies, some acid-tongued rhetoric, and vague allusions to the War on Terrorism, the anti-gun lobby is expected to hammer away relentlessly at the capital's most prominent Second Amendment stalwart, Attorney General John Ashcroft. The former Missouri senator should find their tactics familiar: He developed a similar strategy in his own quest for expanded powers against terrorism last fall, and it appears that his very success in that campaign will serve as a road map for gun control.

[skipped one paragraph.]

For decades federal law enforcement officials had been clamoring -- unsuccessfully -- for more surveillance, interrogation, and incarceration powers. Enter Osama bin Laden. Now, call it the "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (USA PATRIOT) Act of 2001," and you're in business.

How effective was Ashcroft's strategy?

In November, The Chicago Tribune quoted an exasperated Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wis.), the only senator to vote against the new powers:
"The naming of the bill ...is the kind of cynical game played to intimidate people into not only not voting against it, but not debating it or questioning it." People who hate guns understand how powerful the anti-terrorism angle can be, and they are acting accordingly.

entire article: Reason Magazine



Enlightened Self-Interest

NRA support for reform of cannabis laws (or simply suspension of prohibiton efforts), even if in the form of a written statement, is an act of enlightened self-interest if there ever was one. Helping to defuse what the Federal Government is pursuing under the guise of cannabis prohibition preserves and strengthens the Bill of Rights for NRA members and for all us as a whole.

The NRA has the muscle, to be blunt, to make a tremendous difference with relatively little effort or financial expense. Even some open discussion of such a statement or resolution expressing the NRA's concern about the focus of Federal and State resources on cannabis clubs, especially while America is under real siege would be considerably impactful.

My vision is of the cannabis activist networks and the NRA constituency together notifying the Federal Government that they have exceeded their boundaries as authorized by the Constitution. I am unsure how many people this would be, but its a LOT of votes.


Common Ground

Towards that end I suggest there are several areas of overlapping concerns, or common ground. The 2 most relavent, to me, are the concepts of Personal Responsibility and Prohibition.

Who preaches responsibility more than, well, responsible gun owners? Responsible gun ownership is a model of personal responsibity to me. Guns are inherently dangerous: Responsibilty prevents damage and tragedy by actively following established rules of safety. Its a code taken seriously. Just because few people here and there do terrible things does not mean that you or I should be infringed upon as somehow complicit. The press release from the Brady Center cited above is insane. I really do respect all those Politicians, but they are out-to-lunch with that report. (Probably a 3-martini lunch.)

Another is the specter of prohibition, as in handgun control: the phrase that makes a whole bunch of people get all bristley. I do not own a gun, actually, but I cannot and do not support handgun bans specifically because of the dynamics of prohibition. Banning handguns would establish a precedent for further weakening of all Amendments, wouldn't it?

Gun ownership and handguns are a part of American Culture and banning them is simply not feasible... I just don't think it is. But then again, our Government declared a war against a weed, so there's no telling what they might do. Take the concept of the Iron Law of Prohibition (link below) and substitute "handguns" in place of "cannabis". Handgun values would skyrocket, prompting the development of a vicious black market, and a whole swath of Americans become instant criminals, and potential threats. You think we got trouble now? That really should be scary.



Cannabis Prohibition 101

The history of and reasons for cannabis prohibition wind on deep into the night. It is so huge. Its sufficient for purposes here to suggest a the majority of people outside cannabis culture actually know nothing about what is going on (literally right under your noses) or what is at stake, and to encourage a few of you to do some research of your own.

Whereas handguns are inherently dangerous, as defined by the sheer numbers of people injured or killed each year, cannabis is has no known lethal toxicity. A diet of fast food is far worse in terms of undesirable health consequences (like obesity and diabetes). It's a lot safer than cigarettes, alcohol, cars, stairs, pocket knives, BB guns, poison ivy, airplanes, chain saws, gasoline, oil exploration. I'll assume you get the picture.

While cannabis has demonstrated medical uses, and is environmentally very friendly for industrial applications, its prohibition has resulted in skyrocketing prices of personal use marijuana, a huge blackmarket with profit- AND enforcement-related violence (links at end of article), and squandered law enforcement resources. Millions of wasted arrests and needless prosecutions that protect nobody, billions of taxpayer dollars up in smoke each year, and financing the growth of a staggering prison population. The Land of the Free and Home of the Brave, composed of perhaps 5% of the world population, has, thanks to the War on Drugs, 25% of all the imprisoned people in the world. There are people in canada right now granted refugee status specifically based on persecution by our government and its war on cannabis.

And, it also has provided a mechanism for non-stop pressure from law enforcment, particularly Federal, for ways around the Bill of Rights, Our Constitutional Safeguards, to futher "investigative abilities". These safeguards have weakened over the years because of the "war on drugs", especialy since the early 1980's. Politicians just kept making tougher and tougher laws afraid to "look soft on drugs". Thus the massive prison population.


I strongly advise and encourage you to read How the Narcs Created Crack, an excellent overview of the Iron Law of Prohibition. by Richard Cowan. It details how increased enforcement exacerbates rather than controls the problem targeted for prohibition. It was written in 1986, but it is remains dead-on accurate and absolutley essential reading to understand what is going on.

For an outstanding review of the evolution of cannabis propaganda, take a break and watch: "Grass" This is on POT-TV, an excellent canadian cannabis site. You will need Realplayer.

But do come back: we are not done.


Do not touch The Plant.

The Government Position is that legalization (or "liberalization") will cause calamity . Children will light up immediately...people will rush right out and become pot fiends....the sky will fall..., or something, but it could not possibly be good (repeat until foam seen at mouth). The essence is the "the People" cannot be responsible; which is hogwash - dangerous hogwash. At least, I think so. (Nope. No link to their any of stuff since they get all the taxpayer-supported media exposure they can hog. You already know their line, anyway. Imagine a Superbowl ad linking handgun supporters to terrorism.)

Cannabis prohibition is built upon and maintained by lies, emotionally manipulative news stories, and media censorship. It is a propaganda campaign aimed at disinforming everybody about what is an easily verifiable reality. This is specifically why a lot of people outside cannabis culture know nothing about whats going on all around them. They are getting sandbagged by their governement, plain and simple.

The facts are that several million people in this country alone smoke pot and we are very responible, productive individuals, Americans no less. Prohibition does not stop "pot smoking". It creates an artificial problem that is then blamed on the plant itself. It really is a gigantic scam. (For a lengthy discussion of this, see: Marijuana and Terrorism in America)

Cannabis Prohibition prevents industrial usage entirely in the USA, and has stifiled medical research and appliction in this country. Both of these stipulations have nothing to do with allegations the "law enforcement is saving lives". They are protecting petrochemical (Chemical/Oil/Pharmaceuticle) companies from a natural, renewable, unpatentable, and powerful competition, and killing Americans in the process.

We have a needless medical and industrial cannabis research deficit. Firms in England and Isreal are busy developing cannabis-based medications and non-smoke deliveries. Mercedes Benz uses hemp fibers in some of its auto interiors. Canada has instituted a Medical marijuana program and a developing hemp seed and fiber sector, both of which are hounded and harrassed by the US DEA. Suits have been filed against the DEA in numerous States to allow American farmers to grow hemp for industrial purposes. The USA is the only memeber of the G8 countries that doesn't have a hemp industry. Most European countries are moving towards legalization of cannabis, plain and simple.



Squandered Law Enforcement resources compromise National Security.

Cannabis Prohibition laws are based specifically on preventing people from touching the plant, not on smoking it or being "high". Its against the law to touch or share, and selling it to make a buck is right out of the question. Smoking it is not why you get arrested. If this was the case we could all go to jail for failing a pee test.

According to the FBI's Uniform Crime report, roughly 734,498 people were arrested for cannabis touching in the year 2000, 646,042 of them for just touching, not trafficking. This was neaerly twice the number of all other "real" and "white collar" crimes combined. Millions have been arrested and prosecuted since the late 1970's. M-i-l-l-i-o-n-s.(Source: Marijuana Violations for Year 2000 This is located on the NORML website, which has it broken down in many useful searchable ways.)

It would seem clear that Terror took a back seat to Cannabis and the Eternal War on Drugs, and this has to be considered in any investigation of "why" and "how" America got attacked. Law Enforcement's own statitistics show their priorities as reflected by where they spent a huge amount of their time and effort. There are internal complaints from FBI agents that some divisions in the FBI were dissing their own anti-terror squads in favor of high-profile (yes..pun intended) drug busts. Better for career advancement, it seems.

Subsequently, the FBI has reorganized and has alleged it is out of the drug enforcement business so that it can spend it's time better addressing Terrorism. (And the sky is yellow and the sun is blue.) But still, even the FBI issues a statement indicating the need to not pursue drug enforcement to focus resources. Common Ground, indeed.

Finally, before somebody makes the complaint: Nobody is asking anybody to endorse "pot smoking". My support for NOT banning handguns does not mean I endorse rushing out to get one: support for suspending enforcement of cannabis prohibition has NOTHING to do with advocating pot smoking. Thats just nutty, and it is beside the point. We can, as Americans, together, not like the government using all this as a lever to pry our rights away from us, whether one-by-one, or wholesale. It is OUR Right.

The bottom line is that it is impossible to discuss cannabis prohibition or handgun control without wading deep into constitutional law. And when you do you will always find both to be unconstitutional. This is why I think the NRA should at least consider some sort of expression of support of cannabis reform efforts as they apply to strengthening constitutional protections for all.

Getting OUR Government to protect OUR liberties is OUR common ground.


In Part II, I will discuss how the blatant disregard for the 2nd and 4th Amendments resulted in the deaths of 2 different men, decent police officers dying for nothing, how these widespread "Drug Raids" kill many, many innocent people, and why this all demonstrates that the FBI and Law Enforcement in general cannot be trusted with the Patriot Act or "Homeland Security".

xxdr_zombiexx

REFERENCE LINKS


1: Victims of the Drug War

2: Government Raid Victims

3: Rainbow Farm

4: The Oregonian

5: WWeek

6: Death Penalty News

7: Oregonlive.com

8: NORML report about Steven Dons Incident

9: Peter McWilliams Mapinc story
http://my.marijuana.com/article.php?sid=3815&mode=flat&order=0&thold=-1



"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878

Comments

  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I always find it laughable when the pot heads and so called "civil libertarians" refer to the violation of the tenth amendment when it comes to the federal governments prohibition of drugs, pornography, sex with minors,sex with animals,and every other so called "right to be free", yet will fully support the Federal governments constitutional violations with respect to gun rights, religious rights, welfare, education, property rights, and just about every other area where the Federal government has no authority sticking their noses in.
    Lets be consistent pot heads! If you think the Feds do not have the authority to make pot legal, via tenth amendment, lets recognize the fact that the STATES have the rights to limit so called freedoms, and the Federal government has no authority to control the states and the people with many of the unconstitutional policies, laws and regulations that many on the left(pot heads included)support.
    I say, lets have the states decide the pot issue. And when states like CALIFORNIA, OREGON, NY, MASS, NJ, or any other state that wants free and unlimited rights to do whatever they want, fall into chaos, then dont cry to the federal government to bail your * out with Federal interference in area where constitutionally the Federal government doesnt belong. You guys can make your bed, but make sure you and you alone lay in it. Dont go bringing the Federal government in to fix the mess you create with your "right to do whatever you want."

    "The powers delegated by the proposed constitution to the federal governmentare few and defined, and will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace negotiation, and foreign commerce"
    -James Madison
  • beantolebeantole Member Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have long felt that wasting resources on prosecuting people who are charged with simple possession of pot is wrong. Pot should be decriminalized. The country will not fall apart. Society will not be corrupted. However, resources will be freed up to fight real crimes.
  • E.WilliamsE.Williams Member Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I myself do not see marijauna as a terrible plague onsociety.i have seen the effects of alchohol and tobacco and they are two of the most lethal things you can put in your body.Yet these are legal.How many people die in this country everyday from alchohol and tobacco related illnesses.If marijauna was legalized tomorrow this country would be the same as it always has just a little less crowded jails.There would not be any crazed pot heads out terrorizing the town.I think if you actually knew how many people smoked marijuana anyway you would be quite surprised.Legalize it tax it and spend the money on the homeless and getting Osamas *.There is no comparison between pot and say crack and heroin.And I know marijuana is no where near as harmful as alchohol and tobacco.Its strange that this country finds some of the things wrong that it does.Having pot illegal is about as strange to me as saying a beatiful female naked body is vulgar but sending 18 year olds off to fight and die in a war that they mght not even really know what its about or sending child molesters right back out on the streets to ruin more chldrens lives.If pot was legalized the country would benefit from a canyon full of newtax dollars.Might sound strange but it is true.

    Eric S. Williams
  • Gordian BladeGordian Blade Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Going after pot is a waste of time and resources, not serving any rational purpose, except for one thing: always follow the money. If pot were legal, people could easily grow their own for their own use and the government couldn't easily tax it like alcohol and tobacco.

    PS - No, I don't use pot and I don't want my kids using it.
  • AlpineAlpine Member Posts: 15,092 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sorry no support from me here. Don't use any of those things, and I can see the cost to the American People on the use of legal and non legal drugs.
    Those of you that claim it doesn't hurt anyone but themselves are full of crap.

    "If you ain't got pictures, I wasn't there."
    ?The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.?
    Margaret Thatcher

    "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
    Mark Twain
  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The NRA has a focused purpose and it would do great harm to the NRA to have it take on another cause with an entirely different set of arguments behind it. Potheads have NORML, they don't need the NRA.

    There are a lot more Americans in favor of the Second Amendment applying to individuals than there are those in favor of legalizing another drug that causes traffic accidents when misused and makes a percentage of users into addicts and bums.

    Most people would probably say that we have enough problems with legal liquor, thank you, and there's no point in adding what many consider to be a "gateway" drug to the mix in bars, nightclubs, or the home. By the way, some drunks can drive home in a "blackout," but have you ever tried to drive drunk AND high? Man oh man.

    Sorry, Charlie.

    - Life NRA Member
    "If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878

    Edited by - offeror on 07/05/2002 12:01:14
  • William81William81 Member Posts: 25,507 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I see legalizing pot in the same catagory as putting up casinos every
    where. It does not sound like a bad idea. There is the believe that it will make things better. When finally put into practice, the effect is not what is expected.

    I do not believe liberization of our current drug laws, including
    cannibis will be in our best interest in the long run. I see it as just one more step down the ladder to the end of this great country.

    I think most of the resources saved by making pot legal will be burnt up in setting up more rehab centers....

    JMHO....Flame away if you feel the need.....

    Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Liberals....
  • MercuryMercury Member Posts: 7,842 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    William,
    You are pretty clueless about pot, if I may say so.

    Here is the bottom line about any drug:

    If people want to get high, THEY WILL, and it doesn't matter if it is legal or not.

    Just like gun people are always saying "Don't outlaw guns, because criminals will STILL HAVE THEM." Same thing.

    If people want to have guns illegally, they will. If they want to get high illegally, they will.

    Merc



    NO! You may not have my guns! Now go crawl back into your hole!

    ****************************************

    "Tolerating things you may not necessarily like is part of being free" - Larry Flynt
  • cowboy62cowboy62 Member Posts: 70 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Government control or chaos....?????

    I'll take my chances with chaos.....

    Fully 50% of the citizens of our great country smoke or smoked pot.....

    Maybe if they were not so stoned they might get out and vote....

    Think this through.... ever wonder how many of the guys who signed the Declaration of Independance smoked pot. I would guess we would be surprised to know the truth......

    I support the

    Right to keep and bear arms, and smoke pot too....

    Just not at the same time.....

    Until we have a test that can determine whether or not you are currently under the influence of pot, it can't be legalized.....


    Willie's Right

    Cowboy

    Law enforcement must have a way to tell if you are impaired, while driving a car.

    When first a job has begun, see it through till' it's done. Whether the labor is great or small, do it right, or not at all! gshutes@aol.com What I d
  • William81William81 Member Posts: 25,507 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Merc, clueless??? ....I work with Potheads every day of the week...I see people that have screwed up their lives and the lives of their families. I work with their neglected children because Dope is more important than anything else to them.

    I know people that want to get high will do so and not everyone that uses is a worthless human being. But you have to draw the line somewhere. I guess my line is at a different place than yours.

    So son, before you call someone clueless, try walking in their shoes, they just might have a different experience than you.

    Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Liberals....

    Edited by - william81 on 07/05/2002 13:20:13
  • E.WilliamsE.Williams Member Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have know plenty of pot smokers and stillknow a few and I can tell you first hand I don know one wh has crashed their car doped out on weed.There are some who abuse it and get robbed of their ambition but hell what about alchoholics anonymous.There are far more people who are drunks than potheads.I know people who wouldnt smoke pot if it was legal because they like just alchohol.I have smoked some in my time and I am still responsible pay taxes vote hold my family above all else and am well aware of where m life needs to be.I think most people who say pot is dangerous are people that have never even tried it.Weed s not more dangeros than tobacco and that is not flawed logic.I also have had 2 friends die as a result of drinking and driving I have never lost one to smoking and driving.Pot is not the severe mind control drug some think it to be.You get drunk even if you dont want to be anymore your along for the ride you dont want to be high anymore eat a cheese burger.Pot makes you keep a little better control while driving beacause your paranoid you watch more of what your doing.It is posible to smoke and be a normal responsible citizen.I have tried marijuana and it was not the gateway to other harder drugs cause it was the oly illegal drg I have ever tried.Never would you see me trying cocaine or any of the severe control drugs.Comparing pot to cocaine or heorin is like comparing a oxycodone to a aspirin.Lighten up on pot people I know plenty who embrase it and they are damn fine human beings.I beleive alchohol is the worst thing next to crack.And legalizing pot does not mean you have to legalize evry other illegal drug.Hell make it illegal to grow and maintain and sell it in the stores like cigarettes if it was legal id buy a pack.Like a couple have said here its not worth the court orthe jails time to deal with somebody who likes to smoke a joint here and there.People wil get high regardles so if nothing else lighten the laws so not so many people go to jail for such small amounts of it.Just like anything else in this great country"You Dont Like IT Dont Buy It"

    Eric S. Williams
  • Bushy ARBushy AR Member Posts: 564 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Marijuana will NEVER be legalized in this country as long as the alcohol lobby keeps people in office...PERIOD! Criminalizing alcohol did not work either,although I see prescription marijuana doing some people some good...surprised that the drug companies even allowed that to happen.

    Little people talk about people,regular people talk about things,and big people talk about ideas.
  • 96harley96harley Member Posts: 3,992 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    No to legalizing any dope for pleasure use. Alcohol's dope and look how many poeple die due to it. Look at the broken families caused by it. Why not legalize rape, theft, and murder. The crime stats would go way down. Anyway just because a society or government says it's legal, doensn't mean it right.
  • Judge DreadJudge Dread Member Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Remember Mary Hachet? what alcohol "inlegality" did to US ????
    Well if we see it from a freedom point all drug laws are unsconstitutional depriving of citisens to medicate themselves as they like , but how can the CIA get all the money for their Unlawfull
    experiments like in http://www.ou-research.com and the other goodies to keep our democracy running....

    Anyway we are bein drugged by TV subliminals RF religion and politics
    and is under the law ....

    JD

    Good...? , Bad...? Who cares ? as long I am the one with the the gun.....
  • 218Beekeep218Beekeep Member Posts: 3,033
    edited November -1
    Hey judge,screw all that noise,man..
    just roll a big ol` number,
    and check out www.Ganja.com

    .218
  • airborneairborne Member Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Being one that has never used, not even once, I'll remain nuetral.

    Will say I smoked my first cigarette, now I smoke, did bridge over from cigarettes to cigars, but still smoke. Drank my first beer, still drink beer, as well as hard liquor. Purchased my first firearm, still get satisfaction from purchasing guns.

    Guess you could say I have an addictive personally, and do not need any more addictions, ie. smoking pot.

    B - BreatheR - RelaxA - AimS - SightS - Squeeze
  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    quote:If people want to get high, THEY WILL, and it doesn't matter if it is legal or not.

    Just like gun people are always saying "Don't outlaw guns, because criminals will STILL HAVE THEM." Same thing.

    If people want to have guns illegally, they will. If they want to get high illegally, they will.


    Absolutely right, Merc.

    This is what I was saying earlier. Deterrance can take a number of forms, and outright banning is the biggest of all. For some it will work. But for many, especially kids these days, nothing will deter them in finding a way to get what they want.

    I used to know a kid who would suck all of the nitrous oxide out of whipped cream cans and get high as a kite (also occasionally pass out and bleed from the nose).

    His rationale? "I could get weed if I wanted, but damned if it isnt easier to buy the whipped cream"

    I've heard of kids huffing gasoline, dipping cigarettes in body embalming fluid, even inhaling burning plastic fumes.

    To be honest, I'd rather have them smoking marijuana who's production, purity, and potency is Federally-controlled and taxed.

    Bottom line: Kids do stupid things, some more than others. Kids are very persistant in getting what they want, even if it's bad for them. Keeping those two immovable points in mind, I think we should take the lesser of two evils and legalize.

    Oh, and by the way, the gateway drug argument is early-80's era reefer madness garbage. It has since been disproven by every major marijuana study done since then.

    Drug-oriented addictive personalities (i.e- compulsive thrill seeking combined with immaturity combined with bad judgement) will smoke, inject, snort, or drink anything they can.
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I notice a lot of you fellas who think that weed should be legalized often refer to the idea of having a "federal tax" on it.
    Do any of you have a problem with the fact that the federal government does not have the power(under the constitution)to tax the stuff. Maybe if it was imported, I guess they could put a tarriff on it-but in the case of home grown stuff, the federal government has no constitutional authority to tax weed.

    "The powers delegated by the proposed constitution to the federal governmentare few and defined, and will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace negotiation, and foreign commerce"
    -James Madison
  • E.WilliamsE.Williams Member Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    No tax thats even better.

    Eric S. Williams
  • dads-freeholddads-freehold Member Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    greetings, i hate to say it but the people in favor of keeping pot illegal seem to be using the arguement that because some abuse it ,legislate it away, the same thing the liberals say about gun control. we should be standing for all the bill of rights , lest we become as inconsistent as our advisaries. respt. submitted dads-freehold

    rodney colson
  • joeaf1911a1joeaf1911a1 Member Posts: 2,962 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    And afer the NRA takes a stand on legalizing pot, then what is next?
    Taking a stand on abortion, gay rights, speed limits on highways,
    alien quotas, profiling, proper dress codes and the likes?? They
    have enough problems with just our gun rights, for now. Potheads
    have their own associations. Dont try to screw up the NRA with
    such dingbat ideas.
  • agloreaglore Member Posts: 6,012
    edited November -1
    For those that think marijuana is harmless here is a little news. Marijuana contains far more carcenogens than tobacco. Causes brain damage that is irreparible and has not been proven to be of any medicinal use that something else could serve the same purpose for. Over 50% of all crimes in this country are committed by persons either on alcohol or drugs of one sort or another.

    AlleninAlaska

    Free men are not equal and equal men are not free
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:
    we should be standing for all the bill of rights , lest we become as inconsistent as our advisaries. respt. submitted dads-freehold
    rodney colson

    Could you show me where the right to smoke pot is located in the bill of rights? Just curious.

    "The powers delegated by the proposed constitution to the federal governmentare few and defined, and will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace negotiation, and foreign commerce"
    -James Madison
  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The question is whether the NRA should support legalizing pot. Whatever you think of pot, that will never happen, nor should it. It is naive to think that a gun lobby could, would or should have any interest in getting involved in another big controversial issue. It would only weaken the NRA and they would consider the suggestion slightly "cracked." Sorry, but in real life, the NRA taking up another issue like pot will never happen. Ever. Ever. Am I being clear?

    Now, as for legalization, looking at history, we'd probably be better off if pot were legal INSTEAD OF alcohol, but alcohol got there first. So that's our legal buzz. Period. I don't know if it's ever been studied, as to who are the worse drivers, the stoned or the drunk. My guess? It may be about even. But drunks might be worse. Still, this is just my personal view. Since pot is viewed by the big organizations concerned with drug use as a "gateway" drug, they are not going to go for legal pot. I do think it's a bit nutty to break down people's doors and pull their private crop up by the roots and cart them off to jail, even if they're sharing once in a while. But I think this country has settled that hash. We are a beer-guzzling, bar hopping nation. Red-blooded Americans and potheads are not images that mesh -- in fact, pot was very "counter-culture" in an "in your face" way in the 60s, so it has an unAmericanness about it even today. Never mind the boys in Viet Nam did it. However, I still say the only time I was ever thoroughly a danger on the highway -- and knew it because I literally COULD NOT DRIVE -- was when I was both drunk and high. So I don't think you can have your cake and eat it too. Maybe we should license people to pick one or the other only. How's that for thinking outside the box?

    - Life NRA Member
    "If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
  • joeaf1911a1joeaf1911a1 Member Posts: 2,962 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The subject is about the NRA geting into something of other than our
    gun rights and gun information. Seems like a Harley Davidson group
    approving a tennis match rule. To begin with, many ranges have a sign
    showing, "no drugs or alcahol allowed" . Going into the rights and
    wrongs of drugs does not enter into. The NRA was formed for only one reason. AND IT WAS NOT TO LEGALIZE DRUGS. Sorry, druggies. Put
    your sad tales on NORML or what ever its called. And leave the NRA
    alone with your drug tales of woe.
  • dads-freeholddads-freehold Member Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    greeting, to salzo , well you got me there , it can only be infered by the ninth , tenth , forth and fifth. in the preamble we are promised only three things, life , liberty,and the pursuit of happiness. note acouple things, 1. they didn't say long life only life,that is significant in legal terms. 2. they didn't say happiness only the pursuit of it again very significant in legal terms. why because the writers understood the limits of government however benovolent it be and that is significant. all these concepts are expounded on in the federalist papers .just because an item or idea is not expounded on in the bill of rights is exactly why we have aa ninth and tenth. the ninth is a restraint on states and the tenth is a restraint on the feds. respt submitted dads-freehold

    rodney colson
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Dadsfreehold- the fourth amendment deals with prohibiting illegal searches. It does not imply a right to smoke pot. Certainly the government has violated the fourth amendment to fight the "drug war", but that does not mean you have a right to dope.
    The fifth amendment deals with the rights of the accused-Again, the government has violated the fifth amendment with illegal seizures, without due process, because of their drug war-but again-it does not give you a right to smoke pot.
    The ninth amendment is in no way a restraint on the states-or at least, that was not the intentions of the founders.
    The ninth amendment basically says "even though we have listed the above rights, that does not imply that these are the only rights we have. Therefore, the federal government cannot in any way restrict ANY rights, notwithstanding the fact that we listed only a few above.(the 9th amendment is probably the best chance towards forcing the states rto accept a Federal law that says pot is legal. This was the amendment that was used to defend a womans right to kill babies).
    Now that does not in any way mean that these other rights cannot be limited by any government, only the Federal government(and like it or not, the states were not in any way prohibited by the constitution from limiting the rights mentioned in the billof rights).
    And the tenth amendment guarantees the rights of the states the power to delegate anything that they are not prohibited by the constitution from doing so.
    Since the constitution in no way says that a state cannot make a law that weed is illegal, the states have every authority to do so. There is no guaranteed constitutional right to smoke weed, therefore the states are protected by the tenth amendment.
    "that each state in the union, shall retain every power, jurisdiction and right which which is not by this constitution delegated to the congress of the united states or to the departments of the federal government... That those clauses(BOR) which declare that CONGRESS shall not exercise certain powers be not interpeted IN ANY MANNER WHATSOEVER to extend the powers of congress. But that they may be construed either as making exceptions to the specified powers where this shall be the case, or otherwise as inserted merely for greater caution"
    -Excerpt from Virginia ratification of the constitution.

    "The powers delegated by the proposed constitution to the federal governmentare few and defined, and will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace negotiation, and foreign commerce"
    -James Madison
  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I guess an easy test of whether it's a state or a federal legalization matter is the simple question, which was it that legalized pot for certain medicinal purposes, some states, or the feds? As a practical matter, that would be who controls legality, da?

    - Life NRA Member
    "If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
  • 223believer223believer Member Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Salzo, you're such a damn moron it's a wonder you can
    manage to turn the computer on.

    Yes, you're right, smoking pot is not specifially
    mentioned in the Constitution. If you stop and
    think about it--and "think" is the important word
    here, salzo--lots and lots of things aren't mentioned
    in the Constitution. The guys who wrote it realized
    they couldn't cover everything, so they laid out some
    very broad rules. And the important foundation of those
    rules, the big important idea, is that by and large
    the government should leave people alone. There should
    be enough of it to protect us from those who would do
    us wrong and to provide some basic services, but that's
    about it.

    The point all these people are making is that a fellow
    sitting there is his home puffing away on a joint is
    not doing anyone any harm and the government should leave
    him alone.

    You can argue perhaps that he is doing someone wrong, that
    the second hand smoke is hurting somebody else or that
    the cultivation of pot takes away valuable crop land or
    whatever, but pull your nose back four inches from the
    tree you're staring at and try to look at the forest.
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:

    You can argue perhaps that he is doing someone wrong, that
    the second hand smoke is hurting somebody else or that
    the cultivation of pot takes away valuable crop land or
    whatever, but pull your nose back four inches from the
    tree you're staring at and try to look at the forest.

    223 Beleiever-Actually, STUPID, I would never use the above arguments to say that pot smoking should be illegal. If you remember the article that this discussion focused on, it dealt with whether or not the states had a tenth amendment right to legalize marijuana(probably cant remember that due to your short term memory loss). My position once again, is that I do in fact think that the states can legalize marijuana, and that the federal government does not have the constitutional authority to prohibit pot smoking, or legalization of pot
    But on the same token, the states have every right to make it illegal, and nothing in the constitution prevents them from doing so, and the constitution actually protects their right to do so..
    You do not have a constitutionalk right to smoke pot-you can talk about your pursuit of happiness, and all of that, but that does not mean you have a guaranteed constitutional right to smoke weed.
    Your lack of understanding with respect to the constitution is astounding nit wit, and I suggest you consider actually reading it before spewing such nonsense. Your explanation to their intentions of "not being able to cover everything" is laughable. Really shows your ignorance with respect to history.
    Read the constitution, and then read the Declaration of independence. See if you can concentrate long enough to get beyond the "pursuit of happiness" part. Might clear some things up for you-probably not.

    "The powers delegated by the proposed constitution to the federal governmentare few and defined, and will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace negotiation, and foreign commerce"
    -James Madison
  • dads-freeholddads-freehold Member Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    greetings, come on guys let's be reasonable, we are adults , please no name calling, just free discussion, now salso has brought out some valid truths, and raised some important questions. now personally i don't think the nra will ever support cannibus, for one it is not their scope, i only raised the question cause of a speech mr la piere gave about supporting the whole constitution about a year ago and incorportated some of his reasoning into this post. now mr. salso has stated that there is no constitutional statement on smoking pot ,therefore no right. i'll have to deal with this in two ways logic and limitation. in the limtation of the tenth on federal government, simply stated if it ai'nt there they can't do, constitutionaly, period. because those things are reserved to the states or the people . and because there is no authority for the regulation of cannibus stated in the constitution it's outside the scope of the feds, something ibelieve mr salso stated (an i also believe).so constitutionally we see that because of the restriction of the tenth on the federals the issue is a state and or people issue. more on this as we approach the ninth, but now to the logic part: as mr salso stated no statement therefore no right or (-p=-q) elementray logic 101. but if we read the tenth intoto we see that there are things implied by -p therefore we could say( -p implies q). or there are things reserved to the states and or people, that are excluded from the feds. now the law of universals states you can put anything there that is in particular not in some other domain, example treaties, why because it is excluded by the constitution as being federal. now i realize that there are limit problems here and so did the original framers , but most of those are expediance prob's. so for the sake of arguement , let's just say that pot is the domain of the states and or the people. in transstition let me state that the constitution recognizes two types of law, that is de-facto and de-juri. now of late there is a lot of ignorance on what these mean and how they are applied but to go back to the original romans you find that de-facto laws were universal in scope that is understood to pre-exist law, example (do no murder) found in nearly every culture ad infinium. the other de-juri dealt with law that were partiular in nature or needed to be explained by law, example the 14 th amendment.( i know this is an over simplifacation ). now as we approach the ninth let me state that i don't believe that pot smoking falls under de-facto law accept as it is defined by the days logic,ie , because the people do it therefore...no rather i believe it has to be stated as a partiular dealing within the scope of the states and or the people, thus again i find myself agreeing with mr salso the states have the right to legislate right or wrong , that is a state issue, within the confines of the ninth amendment( my ninth grade civic primare states that the ninth was an attempt to keep the states from userping the peoples rights recognizied by the bill of rights). in those days it was observed that the majority tended to lord over the minorities, therefore the ninth was adopted to insure that law that where not universals that tended to give advantage of some over others were unconstitutional.can you see where i'm going, if the feds can't because it's not stated and the state can't because its unconstitutional (that is denying or disparaging others retainedby the people, by favoritism ), then in fact the security issue of the fourthamendment and the due process clause of the fifth amendment do come into play rather dramaticly. respt submitted dads-freehold

    rodney colson
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Dadsfreehold-Interesting points. I think we are in agreement on most parts of the discussion, but I still have to take exception to your 9th amendment definition.
    I do not think that your primer can be correct, in its statement that the 9th was inserted to keep the states in check. All of the rights outlined in the bill of rights was written to prohibit the federal government from interfering in not only those "inumerated" rights, but also any rights. It seems to me, when considering the text of the 9th, in plain english it reads
    "even though we have listed certain rights in the constitution that the federal government cannot interfere with, that does not mean that the Federal government can interfere with rights that are not listed." And I think it is not an accident that the 9th was followed by an amendment stating that the powers not delegated to the federal government are reserved to the states.
    Here is a problem. Assuming that the 9th prohibits states from denying rights to its citizens, then who is the arbiter who will decide what rights "the people" have.
    It seems to me inconsistent with the intent of the founders who were apprehensive about creating a centralized government. ZThe states were apprehensive, because they felt that a federal government might usurp the rights of "the states" to self governing. Who did the states think should be the judge of what rights could be restricted? The states thought they should be the judge. "the people"(the sovreign states" should decide.
    If we were to beleieve that the states put the 9th amendment in the constitution to limit themselves, then we are left with needing another entity to decide what rights would be "retained" by the people. Do you really think, with all the apprehension the states had about creating a federal government, fear of losing their power to govern, concern that the very limited federal government that they were creating might become overbearing and interfere with a states sovereignty,they would place in that powers hands the ability to decide what rights the people of the states could enjoy?
    It is very hard to beleive that the states would just delegate to the federal government the power to decide what rights would be exercised by the people.
    NO civilization has ever had a policy where a citizen was free to do whatever they wanted. There has t be limitations placed on society. Who decides what those limitations will be? The people do. The people are free to decide how their community will deal with the issues of rights. If the people, through their elected officials, decide that a right has to be limited, or prohibited alltogether, the people have the right to make that decision. If the people, decide that the rights they have should face zero limitations, than the people have the right to decide that for themselves. The people of CaLIFORNIA MIGHT LIKE THE IDEA OF NO LIMITATIONS ON THEIR RIGHTS, while the people in Utah might find it necessary for society to restrict those rights. The last thing the founders would have wanted, was for the federal government to decide whats good for the people of Uthah is good for the people of California. The people of Utah know whats good for them, and the people of california think they know what is good for them. They dont need the Federal government telling them whats good for them.
    If you have not rea this already, check out ELLIOTS DEBATES- it is a text of the debates that took place in the individual states ratification conventions.
    Thanks for a good discussion.

    "The powers delegated by the proposed constitution to the federal governmentare few and defined, and will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace negotiation, and foreign commerce"
    -James Madison
  • dads-freeholddads-freehold Member Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    greetings again, i love this discussion with you mr. salzo(sorry i just realized i was spelling your handle wrong please forgive). every thing you have stated is correct to a point( and i find myself in agreement), but the problem that the framers had was not with just central government (if you remember they started to revise the artical of confederation) the reason for them convining was not to establish a constitution but revision of the old articals which had thirteen(i'm not sure this number is right,ibelieve it was only nine at the time) decentralized governments. history in capule form , the french rev. was ending with desaster to the democracy of france, the founders saw that america was headed in the same direction, and wanted to insure the states didn't hand the baby republic over to the masses(ie, democracy). they feared that the states might split over something as simple as interstate commerce, thus they used the people as a check on themselves. they saw the equality, fraternity, liberty of the french republic destroy itself on the gillotine. so you see they feared de-centralization almost as much as a central gov. respt. submitted dads-freehold

    rodney colson
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