In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
Law enforcement eyeing privately owned AR-15's
Josey1
Member Posts: 9,598 ✭✭
LEADSTORIES
Story last updated at 9:16 p.m. on Friday, July 19, 2002
Law officers respect assault rifle's power
AR-15: Serious threat in wrong hands
By Stephen Gurr
sgurr@onlineathens.com
Lt. David Kilpatrick of the Oconee County Sheriff's Office holds a .223-caliber AR-15 rifle seized last week in a drug raid in the county. The assault rifle, modeled on the military M-16, turns up more and more frequently as Northeast Georgia officers do battle with criminals. The magazine for an AR-15 holds 30 rounds of ammunition and the guns can fire them as fast as the trigger is pulled.
Jeff Blake/Staff
It's sleek, black and looks like something out of an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie.
It can fire off 30 rounds in about four seconds, spraying bullets that have the capability to burrow through bulletproof vests.
It's the Colt AR-15 assault rifle, and it keeps turning up in the hands of accused criminals.
Law enforcement officials are divided on the AR-15, which has turned up in major area crime scenes three times in the past three years -- most recently two weeks ago in an Oconee County drug bust. While protective of the Second Amendment and generally opposed to gun control, cops see how troublesome it is looking down the wrong end of an assault rifle barrel.
Madison County Sheriff Clayton Lowe knows firsthand the capability of the AR-15, the civilian version of the M-16 in use by the U.S. military since the Vietnam War. His deputies were on the hunt for a Hart County jail escapee in October 2000 when the suspect unloaded a 40-round clip in their direction. No one was hit, but they had second thoughts about trudging into the woods at night in search of a heavily armed escapee.
Kenneth Marty Glenn, 34, eventually surrendered and was convicted of aggravated assault on a police officer and sentenced to nine years in prison. Before running from lawmen, Glenn had dropped by his house to pick up his AR-15 and 250 rounds of ammunition.
''Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way in favor of gun control,'' said Lowe, who enjoys hunting. ''I believe if you give gun control people an inch they'll take you a mile. But it's no fun being outgunned by a bad guy, which is what happened in that situation.''
''Gun control people,'' as Lowe calls them, had something to say about the AR-15 and its exotic counterparts. In 1994, President Clinton signed into law the assault weapon ban that restricted such things as magazine capacity, muzzle flash suppressors (for nighttime firefights) and collapsible stocks that make the guns concealable. But those rules only applied to guns manufactured after the bill was enacted.
With enough money, anyone can get their hands on a ''pre-ban'' assault rifle with all the old bells and whistles.
Take the 1970s-era AR-15 seized by Oconee County investigators at the rural home of Tony Fortmann. Amid 500 marijuana plants, scores of stolen prescription pills and mushrooms, authorities found the gun and its 30-round magazine, along with a long-range rifle, they said.
Oconee County Sheriff's Lt. David Kilpatrick, who is a licensed firearms dealer, downplays the significance of finding an AR-15 at the scene, which was ringed with surveillance cameras and a secured fence.
''Quite honestly, someone with a .22-caliber semiautomatic rifle can be precisely as dangerous,'' Kilpatrick said.
But Kilpatrick allows this: the .223-caliber round fired by the AR-15 is ''devastating,'' with a tumbling action that inflicts major damage to a target.
As for whether a bulletproof vest could stop a bullet fired from the AR-15, ''I wouldn't want to test it,'' Kilpatrick said. ''Because of (the .223's) piercing ability, I'd rather face a slug fired out of a shotgun at the same distance.''
Jackson County Sheriff Stan Evans said last year that a pursuit involving a gang of heavily armed bank robbers was ''almost a nightmare come true.''
Two of the three suspects who robbed the Jefferson Community Bank and Trust were armed with AR-15s that had been illegally modified for fully automatic fire. That meant instead of firing shots as fast as they could pull the trigger, they could unload an entire 40-round clip in a two-second burst.
''It could have ended up a massacre with what we were up against,'' Evans said of the November incident, which ended in a peaceful capture. ''We were certainly outgunned.''
Fewer law enforcement agencies are finding themselves outgunned these days, however. Oconee County officers have their own semiautomatic rifles in the trunks of their patrol units, and Lowe said he's beefed up his department's firepower since the run-in with Glenn.
But for some, it doesn't matter if crooks and cops are on an even playing field.
''We would like all future production of assault weapons outlawed,'' said Marty Langley, a policy analyst with the pro-gun control Violence Policy Center in Washington, D.C.
Langley said gun manufacturers ''have obeyed the letter of the (1994) law, but not the spirit.''
As an example, he cites Colt, which began production of the AR-15 Sporter to make up for its losses in the assault weapons ban.
''They just made some minor adjustments'' to the old AR-15 design, Langley said.
In Oconee County, it wasn't illegal for 25-year-old Ben James Garland to own the AR-15 on its own. But it became a felony when combined with the illegal drug activity alleged at the home, Kilpatrick said.
Likewise, Marty Glenn legally obtained the assault rifle he fired at Madison County sheriff's deputies.
Lowe doesn't think gun ownership rights should change, despite the risks officers face in running up against such firepower.
''Unless they're a convicted felon, I'm all for it,'' he said.
Published in the Athens Banner-Herald on Saturday, July 20, 2002.
http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/072002/new_20020720060.shtml
"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Story last updated at 9:16 p.m. on Friday, July 19, 2002
Law officers respect assault rifle's power
AR-15: Serious threat in wrong hands
By Stephen Gurr
sgurr@onlineathens.com
Lt. David Kilpatrick of the Oconee County Sheriff's Office holds a .223-caliber AR-15 rifle seized last week in a drug raid in the county. The assault rifle, modeled on the military M-16, turns up more and more frequently as Northeast Georgia officers do battle with criminals. The magazine for an AR-15 holds 30 rounds of ammunition and the guns can fire them as fast as the trigger is pulled.
Jeff Blake/Staff
It's sleek, black and looks like something out of an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie.
It can fire off 30 rounds in about four seconds, spraying bullets that have the capability to burrow through bulletproof vests.
It's the Colt AR-15 assault rifle, and it keeps turning up in the hands of accused criminals.
Law enforcement officials are divided on the AR-15, which has turned up in major area crime scenes three times in the past three years -- most recently two weeks ago in an Oconee County drug bust. While protective of the Second Amendment and generally opposed to gun control, cops see how troublesome it is looking down the wrong end of an assault rifle barrel.
Madison County Sheriff Clayton Lowe knows firsthand the capability of the AR-15, the civilian version of the M-16 in use by the U.S. military since the Vietnam War. His deputies were on the hunt for a Hart County jail escapee in October 2000 when the suspect unloaded a 40-round clip in their direction. No one was hit, but they had second thoughts about trudging into the woods at night in search of a heavily armed escapee.
Kenneth Marty Glenn, 34, eventually surrendered and was convicted of aggravated assault on a police officer and sentenced to nine years in prison. Before running from lawmen, Glenn had dropped by his house to pick up his AR-15 and 250 rounds of ammunition.
''Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way in favor of gun control,'' said Lowe, who enjoys hunting. ''I believe if you give gun control people an inch they'll take you a mile. But it's no fun being outgunned by a bad guy, which is what happened in that situation.''
''Gun control people,'' as Lowe calls them, had something to say about the AR-15 and its exotic counterparts. In 1994, President Clinton signed into law the assault weapon ban that restricted such things as magazine capacity, muzzle flash suppressors (for nighttime firefights) and collapsible stocks that make the guns concealable. But those rules only applied to guns manufactured after the bill was enacted.
With enough money, anyone can get their hands on a ''pre-ban'' assault rifle with all the old bells and whistles.
Take the 1970s-era AR-15 seized by Oconee County investigators at the rural home of Tony Fortmann. Amid 500 marijuana plants, scores of stolen prescription pills and mushrooms, authorities found the gun and its 30-round magazine, along with a long-range rifle, they said.
Oconee County Sheriff's Lt. David Kilpatrick, who is a licensed firearms dealer, downplays the significance of finding an AR-15 at the scene, which was ringed with surveillance cameras and a secured fence.
''Quite honestly, someone with a .22-caliber semiautomatic rifle can be precisely as dangerous,'' Kilpatrick said.
But Kilpatrick allows this: the .223-caliber round fired by the AR-15 is ''devastating,'' with a tumbling action that inflicts major damage to a target.
As for whether a bulletproof vest could stop a bullet fired from the AR-15, ''I wouldn't want to test it,'' Kilpatrick said. ''Because of (the .223's) piercing ability, I'd rather face a slug fired out of a shotgun at the same distance.''
Jackson County Sheriff Stan Evans said last year that a pursuit involving a gang of heavily armed bank robbers was ''almost a nightmare come true.''
Two of the three suspects who robbed the Jefferson Community Bank and Trust were armed with AR-15s that had been illegally modified for fully automatic fire. That meant instead of firing shots as fast as they could pull the trigger, they could unload an entire 40-round clip in a two-second burst.
''It could have ended up a massacre with what we were up against,'' Evans said of the November incident, which ended in a peaceful capture. ''We were certainly outgunned.''
Fewer law enforcement agencies are finding themselves outgunned these days, however. Oconee County officers have their own semiautomatic rifles in the trunks of their patrol units, and Lowe said he's beefed up his department's firepower since the run-in with Glenn.
But for some, it doesn't matter if crooks and cops are on an even playing field.
''We would like all future production of assault weapons outlawed,'' said Marty Langley, a policy analyst with the pro-gun control Violence Policy Center in Washington, D.C.
Langley said gun manufacturers ''have obeyed the letter of the (1994) law, but not the spirit.''
As an example, he cites Colt, which began production of the AR-15 Sporter to make up for its losses in the assault weapons ban.
''They just made some minor adjustments'' to the old AR-15 design, Langley said.
In Oconee County, it wasn't illegal for 25-year-old Ben James Garland to own the AR-15 on its own. But it became a felony when combined with the illegal drug activity alleged at the home, Kilpatrick said.
Likewise, Marty Glenn legally obtained the assault rifle he fired at Madison County sheriff's deputies.
Lowe doesn't think gun ownership rights should change, despite the risks officers face in running up against such firepower.
''Unless they're a convicted felon, I'm all for it,'' he said.
Published in the Athens Banner-Herald on Saturday, July 20, 2002.
http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/072002/new_20020720060.shtml
"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Comments
Which could be virtually anything the media chose to characterize that way. These people have an agenda, for sure: to turn this country into the same defenseless population of sheeple as the rest of the world where only the perps and the forces of government have the means to defend themselves.
Yeah thats why it hits targets at 300 meters, it tumbles. No spin on that bullet.
Evil rifle, ban it!
IF YOU DON'T LIKE MY RIGHTS - GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY (this includes politicians)
Better to have and not need, than need and not have.
Gun Control Disarms Victims, NOT Criminals
Here they are talking about some incidents that arose out of illegal activities. First we have illegal activity. Then we have law enforcement going into stop such activity. Suddenly they find the "Bad Guys" are really serious about being bad.......Surprise? Hell No! Stupid for the LEO's to think that once a crook decides to do something, he isn't going to do it as well as he can. Are all crooks stupid? No! Some are very calculating and they are aware of what they are doing or contemplating to do, and are taking all measures to do it without getting caught and to do it very, very well!
Now that I've pointed out this possibility, can anyone of you write a law that will stop a crook from being a crook and doing what he wants to pursue that? If the crooks didn't have AR-15's to use or illegally modify into a full auto gun, what law could you write to keep the crooks from stealing, say an MP-6 from a LEO, or any other gun from someone else for their illegal use?
Excuse me while a see if I can talk a few of these folks into pulling their heads out of the sand ........ They're out there trying to mimic an ostrich! What makes a thinking human being believe the Gun makes the Criminal? Here's a story about the Criminal making the Gun! Take it for what it really is! Crooks being CROOKS!
If You Can't Buy a Pair, Get a Spare!
Edited by - RancheroPaul on 07/22/2002 10:51:01
A great rifle with a junk scope,....is junk.
Eric S. Williams
Oh my god! It's an epidemic! Wonder how many times someone used a car as a weapon in those three years.
Guns are good, Guns are great... please don't throw them in the lake.
When Clinton left office they gave him a 21 gun salute. Its a damn shame they all missed....
LEOs may be "eyeing" private ownership, but let them not eye mine. Sounds like I'd better get what I need while I still can. As for LEOs, if they are truly eyeing private ownership, let them buy their own. You can bet that what gets confiscated goes into polic car trunks. That's how many ops teams "afford" assault weapons. I don't begrudge them a felon's seized armament, by the way, not a bit. But if somebody else has the stuff with MY serial numbers on it, I believe that's called theft.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
I've posted this before, during the "Great .30 Cal & .223 Debate" but it should answer your question on tumbling pretty completly-
Wounding Effects of the U.S. Military M193 (M16A1) and M855 (M16A2) Bullet Cartridges
Exaggerated descriptions of the wounding effects of the M16 rifle bullet flourish as great works of urban lore. One fable describes a bullet that tumbles end-over-end in flight as soon as it exits the muzzle of the rifle. Another legend provides a dramatic account of an unstable, super-high velocity bullet that tumbles and chews its way through flesh like a buzz saw. Although there appears to be a tinge of half-truth behind these entertaining and awe-inspiring mythical tales, these stories do not represent an accurate description of the wounding characteristics of the M16 bullet.
When the M16 cartridge is fired and the bullet is propelled down the bore, the bore's rifling imparts a gyroscopic spin to the bullet. This gyroscopic rotation is needed to maintain point forward stabilization of the bullet as it flies through the air. This method of bullet stabilization is identical to the rotational spin applied to a football when thrown by a quarterback (American football).
The Earth's gaseous atmosphere is approximately 400 times less dense than the body's soft tissues. When the M16 bullet strikes and plows into the body, the rotational spin that stabilized its flight through the air is insufficient to maintain its stability as it flies through dense tissue. The bullet typically penetrates point forward for approximately 4-5 inches before it begins to seek a state of stability in the body.
The bullet's pointed shape makes it heavier at its base than its nose, producing a center of gravity that is located aft of its longitudinal centerline. When the bullet hits the body and penetrates, the bullet attempts to rotate 180 degrees around its center of gravity to achieve a base forward orientation. This backwards orientation is the bullet's stable position in tissue because it places the center of gravity forward.
As the bullet yaws through 90 degrees and is traveling sideways through flesh, the stress of tissue resistance to bullet passage can overpower the physical integrity of the bullet. The bullet has a groove around its midsection called a cannelure. The purpose of the cannelure is to permit the mouth of the cartridge case to be crimped tightly against the bullet shank to hold it firmly to the case. The cannelure weakens the structural integrity of the bullet's copper jacket.
At distances of 100 yards and under, when the bullet hits the body and yaws through 90 degrees, the stresses on the bullet cause the leading edge to flatten, extruding lead core out the open base, just before it breaks apart at the cannelure. The portion of the bullet forward of the cannelure, the nose, usually remains in one piece and retains about 60 percent of the bullet's original weight. The portion of the bullet aft of the cannelure, the base, violently disintegrates into multiple lead core and copper jacket fragments, which penetrate up to 3-inches radially outward from the wound track. The fragments perforate and weaken the surrounding tissues allowing the subsequent temporary cavity to forcibly stretch and rip open the multiple small wound tracks produced by the fragments. The resulting wound is similar to one produced by a commercial expanding bullet used for varmint hunting, however the maximum tissue damage produced by the military bullet is located at a greater penetration depth.
(The increased wounding effects produced by bullet fragmentation were not well understood until the mid-1980's. Therefore the wounding effects of the original M16 rifle bullet were not an intentional U.S. military design characteristic.)
At distances between 100-200 yards the bullet commonly breaks in half at the cannelure forming two large penetrating fragments, the nose and base.
At distances beyond 200 yards the bullet usually remains intact due to velocity decay. It simply yaws 180 degrees to penetrate backwards through the body.
Both the M193 and M855 bullets demonstrate similar terminal performance as described above, when fired from rifles fitted with a 20-inch or longer barrel.
Shooting the M193 or M855 from a rifle with a barrel length less than 14.5-inches produces insufficient muzzle velocity to achieve the terminal performance described above. A rifle fitted with a 14.5-inch barrel is adequate for close-quarters battle. For engagements anticipated at greater than room distance but less than 100 yards, a rifle fitted with a 16.5-inch barrel should be employed to ensure sufficient velocity.
The older 55-grain M193 (M16A1) cartridge is not sensitive to rifling twist rate and can be fired in rifles with 1:12, 1:9 and 1:7 rates of twist. However, the newer M855 (M16A2) cartridge is best used with a rifling twist rate of 1:7 or 1:9. When the M855 is fired in a rifle with a slower rate of twist the longer 62-grain bullet can yaw up to 70 degrees in free trajectory through the air, substantially degrading accuracy.
The wound ballistics of the U.S. military Olin M193/Winchester 55 grain FMJ (X223R1 or Q3131) and green tip U.S. military Olin M855/Winchester 62 grain FMJ (RA556M855) cartridges makes them an adequate choice for use against violent criminal offenders.
Additional testing has indicated that errant bullets (military FMJ and commercial .223 Remington JSP/JHP) which do not hit an attacker appear to penetrate fewer walls and other common building materials than stray handgun bullets.
References:
Fackler, Martin L.: "Wounding Patterns of Military Rifle Bullets." International Defense Review 1/1989, 59-64.
Reserving my Right to Arm Bears!!!!
Hell, should they come to take em, I'll even let 'em inspect the bore!
Guns are good, Guns are great... please don't throw them in the lake.
Save, research, then buy the best.Join the NRA, NOW!Teach them young, teach them safe, teach them forever, but most of all, teach them to VOTE!
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
And I hate to tell the officers, but you're just as dead if the guy clubs you over the head with a rock. Apparently guns arent safe until they are ugly, useless, and single-shot.
And fire Nerf bullets.
I got a post edited yesterday for saying "what a pisser." It was changed to "what a drag." I hear worse language than "pisser" on the five o'clock news.
Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.
If I'm wrong please correct me, I won't be offended.
The sound of a 12 gauge pump clears a house fatser than Rosie O eats a Big Mac !
your comment about them being just as dead if clubbed on the head with a rock reminded me of an old episode of "All in the family"
"Gloria" was berating poor old "Archie" about how so many people are killed with handguns. "Archie" replied..."Would it make you feel any better, little girl, if they was throwed out of a window".
HEHEHE
John Colson
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one" Luke 2:36