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SaxonPig: Response #2
HAIRY
Member Posts: 23,606
Saxonpig: To continue our discussion from the earlier thread:
You said: "The destruction of the Jews remains the goal of enough Palestinians for me to be suspect of all of them."
So, in your opinion, how many Palestinians create "enough" or is this just a figure of speech?
You said: "You clearly see Israel as the aggressor and the Palestinians as merely responding to the violence. I believe it is the other way around and I believe that I am right. Israel was attacked in 1967 and again in 1972. The terrorist attacks continue unabated. What would YOU have them do?"
Sorry, but again, you have some of your facts wrong. The Israelis carried out a preemptive war in 1967 (it was called the Six-Day war), so it appears you have not bother to your talents in research. You are, however, correct in Israel being attacked in 1972. Your claim that the "terrorist" attacks continue unabated-but for some reason, you are more than willing to excuse the continuous, ongoing, almost daily atrocities against the Palestinians by the Israelis and then have the chutzpah to blame the victim!
You said, "I do not think Palestinian civilians die on a daily basis. Few of the casualties are 'innocent.'"
Here is an excerpt from an article provided by Amnesty International concerning the Palestinian deaths as well as the Israelis-can you honestly continue to claim "few...are innocent"? quote:Amnesty International
Israel and the Occupied Territories
Covering events from January - December 2002
STATE OF ISRAEL
Head of state: Moshe Katzav
Head of government: Ariel Sharon
Death penalty: abolitionist for ordinary crimes
International Criminal Court: nullified signature
At least 1,000 Palestinians were killed by the Israeli army, most of them unlawfully. They included some 150 children and at least 35 individuals killed in targeted assassinations. Palestinian armed groups killed more than 420 Israelis, at least 265 of them civilians and including 47 children, and some 20 foreign nationals, in targeted or indiscriminate attacks.
Prolonged closures and curfews were imposed throughout the Occupied Territories and more than 2,000 homes were destroyed. Thousands of Palestinians were arrested. Most were released without charge, but more than 3,000 remained in military jails. More than 1,900 were held in administrative detention without charge or trial, and some 5,000 were charged with security offenses, including involvement in attacks against Israelis.
More than 3,800 were tried before military courts in trials that did not meet international standards. Ill-treatment of Palestinian detainees was widespread. Israeli soldiers used Palestinians as "human shields" during military operations.
Certain abuses committed by the Israeli army constituted war crimes. These included unlawful killings, obstruction of medical assistance and targeting of medical personnel, extensive and wanton destruction of property, torture and cruel and inhuman treatment, unlawful confinement and the use of "human shields".
The deliberate targeting of civilians by Palestinian armed groups constituted crimes against humanity.
At least 158 Israeli conscientious objectors and reservists who refused to serve in the Occupied Territories were imprisoned. Several Israeli soldiers and settlers were arrested on charges of selling weapons and munitions to armed Palestinian groups, and four Israeli settlers were arrested and charged with attempting to bomb a Palestinian school.
Again, the question leaps out: why do you, and others, give a higher value to the life of an Israeli over that of a Palestinian? If nothing else, aren't the children equal? If not, please explain how you can differentiate between them.
You said, "Homes are bulldozed when the residents commit terrorist acts or support those who do. I would bulldoze them, too, if it were I being attacked. Fences are built only after repeated terrorist attacks. I would build them, too."
You are morally and factually wrong in that:
A. by accepting and agreeing with such inhumane and illegal collective punishment against the general populace. As a historian, you should know about the Nazi punishment of Lidice and the outcry against that. I am surprised you agree with such a policy as being practiced by Israel, and I think that if you reflect upon the issue, you would not support it. And,
B: These are not "fences" but rather massive walls-some 27 meters tall! The International Red Cross, Amnesty International and other groups-including the Pontiff condemn them. The barriers are designed to seize additional Palestinian land and create "facts on the ground". One may call a table a chair because one may sit on it-but it is still a TABLE.
You said, "Actually, if I were making the decisions, the Palestinians would be begging for peace a long time ago."
"1979 March 26: Camp David Agreement signed between Egypt and Israel. Israeli withdrawal from Sinai starts, and goes on for the next 3 years. The second part of the agreement, which dealt with autonomy for the Palestinians on Gaza Strip and the West Bank, is never observed from Israeli side."
The Palestinians have tried and tried and tried-Arafat even received the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts, remember? Or do you wish to ignore these efforts as well. The primary stumbling blocks are Jerusalem and the right of return.
You said, "I don't know what Arab propaganda broadcasts you listen to, but the Palestinians are not now, nor have they ever been, nor will they ever be our friends."
I read not only Arab (English language) reports but also Israeli (English language) ones as well--has the burden of learning jaded you and thus you decided to stop learning since finishing your studies?
With reference to the Palestinians being our friends, I do not think any nation has "friends"--France was a friend and England an enemy; Germany was an enemy and is now a friend; Russia was an enemy and is now a friend. Iraq is---well, Iraq. We are discussing geo-political realities, not kindergarten fantasies.
With respect to allies, please consider: with Israel as our ally, we have had the USS Liberty attacked and more than 170 American sailors killed or injured; we have had our national security compromised by Jonathan Pollard (who was given Israeli citizenship AFTER being caught for spying on the UNITED STATES); and we have an investigation of the Israeli's bugging of the White House telephone system underway. With this kind of ally, who needs enemies?
I look forward to your comments.
There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.
Hypocrisy is the homage paid by vice to virtue.
Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain.
You said: "The destruction of the Jews remains the goal of enough Palestinians for me to be suspect of all of them."
So, in your opinion, how many Palestinians create "enough" or is this just a figure of speech?
You said: "You clearly see Israel as the aggressor and the Palestinians as merely responding to the violence. I believe it is the other way around and I believe that I am right. Israel was attacked in 1967 and again in 1972. The terrorist attacks continue unabated. What would YOU have them do?"
Sorry, but again, you have some of your facts wrong. The Israelis carried out a preemptive war in 1967 (it was called the Six-Day war), so it appears you have not bother to your talents in research. You are, however, correct in Israel being attacked in 1972. Your claim that the "terrorist" attacks continue unabated-but for some reason, you are more than willing to excuse the continuous, ongoing, almost daily atrocities against the Palestinians by the Israelis and then have the chutzpah to blame the victim!
You said, "I do not think Palestinian civilians die on a daily basis. Few of the casualties are 'innocent.'"
Here is an excerpt from an article provided by Amnesty International concerning the Palestinian deaths as well as the Israelis-can you honestly continue to claim "few...are innocent"? quote:Amnesty International
Israel and the Occupied Territories
Covering events from January - December 2002
STATE OF ISRAEL
Head of state: Moshe Katzav
Head of government: Ariel Sharon
Death penalty: abolitionist for ordinary crimes
International Criminal Court: nullified signature
At least 1,000 Palestinians were killed by the Israeli army, most of them unlawfully. They included some 150 children and at least 35 individuals killed in targeted assassinations. Palestinian armed groups killed more than 420 Israelis, at least 265 of them civilians and including 47 children, and some 20 foreign nationals, in targeted or indiscriminate attacks.
Prolonged closures and curfews were imposed throughout the Occupied Territories and more than 2,000 homes were destroyed. Thousands of Palestinians were arrested. Most were released without charge, but more than 3,000 remained in military jails. More than 1,900 were held in administrative detention without charge or trial, and some 5,000 were charged with security offenses, including involvement in attacks against Israelis.
More than 3,800 were tried before military courts in trials that did not meet international standards. Ill-treatment of Palestinian detainees was widespread. Israeli soldiers used Palestinians as "human shields" during military operations.
Certain abuses committed by the Israeli army constituted war crimes. These included unlawful killings, obstruction of medical assistance and targeting of medical personnel, extensive and wanton destruction of property, torture and cruel and inhuman treatment, unlawful confinement and the use of "human shields".
The deliberate targeting of civilians by Palestinian armed groups constituted crimes against humanity.
At least 158 Israeli conscientious objectors and reservists who refused to serve in the Occupied Territories were imprisoned. Several Israeli soldiers and settlers were arrested on charges of selling weapons and munitions to armed Palestinian groups, and four Israeli settlers were arrested and charged with attempting to bomb a Palestinian school.
Again, the question leaps out: why do you, and others, give a higher value to the life of an Israeli over that of a Palestinian? If nothing else, aren't the children equal? If not, please explain how you can differentiate between them.
You said, "Homes are bulldozed when the residents commit terrorist acts or support those who do. I would bulldoze them, too, if it were I being attacked. Fences are built only after repeated terrorist attacks. I would build them, too."
You are morally and factually wrong in that:
A. by accepting and agreeing with such inhumane and illegal collective punishment against the general populace. As a historian, you should know about the Nazi punishment of Lidice and the outcry against that. I am surprised you agree with such a policy as being practiced by Israel, and I think that if you reflect upon the issue, you would not support it. And,
B: These are not "fences" but rather massive walls-some 27 meters tall! The International Red Cross, Amnesty International and other groups-including the Pontiff condemn them. The barriers are designed to seize additional Palestinian land and create "facts on the ground". One may call a table a chair because one may sit on it-but it is still a TABLE.
You said, "Actually, if I were making the decisions, the Palestinians would be begging for peace a long time ago."
"1979 March 26: Camp David Agreement signed between Egypt and Israel. Israeli withdrawal from Sinai starts, and goes on for the next 3 years. The second part of the agreement, which dealt with autonomy for the Palestinians on Gaza Strip and the West Bank, is never observed from Israeli side."
The Palestinians have tried and tried and tried-Arafat even received the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts, remember? Or do you wish to ignore these efforts as well. The primary stumbling blocks are Jerusalem and the right of return.
You said, "I don't know what Arab propaganda broadcasts you listen to, but the Palestinians are not now, nor have they ever been, nor will they ever be our friends."
I read not only Arab (English language) reports but also Israeli (English language) ones as well--has the burden of learning jaded you and thus you decided to stop learning since finishing your studies?
With reference to the Palestinians being our friends, I do not think any nation has "friends"--France was a friend and England an enemy; Germany was an enemy and is now a friend; Russia was an enemy and is now a friend. Iraq is---well, Iraq. We are discussing geo-political realities, not kindergarten fantasies.
With respect to allies, please consider: with Israel as our ally, we have had the USS Liberty attacked and more than 170 American sailors killed or injured; we have had our national security compromised by Jonathan Pollard (who was given Israeli citizenship AFTER being caught for spying on the UNITED STATES); and we have an investigation of the Israeli's bugging of the White House telephone system underway. With this kind of ally, who needs enemies?
I look forward to your comments.
There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.
Hypocrisy is the homage paid by vice to virtue.
Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain.
Comments
This will be my last response to the UN agent known at HAIRY. It is now obvious that he is a UN sponsored anti semite bent on the destructin of the Judeo Christian way of life and is part of the UN pagan and secular global agenda. They have been known to infiltrate patriotic sites like this one and infuse them with propaganda. Their goal is to cloak themselves as academics , but their real goal is our total enslavement through gradual dissarmament of responsible citizens. May God Almightly bless every Israeli sniper and give them a steady triger pull and a steady hand. May Hamas, Hezbolah, and Al Quida perish with Arafat and Bin Laden. , and may we never forget Americans who fell to their death from the two burning towers and the PLO fat pig females who danced in the street.
God bless the United States and Israel, and our joint armed forces as we battle UN sponsored global tyrrany.
Member: NRA, RFC, John Birch Society.
A dead intruder cannot testify against you in a court of law!
If they're still moving, put another round in them!
HIP HIP HOORAY! HIP HIP HOORAY!!
Amnesty International is a well known front for UN sponsored global Bolshevism and tyrrany. Their figures are missrepresented and skewed.
This will be my last response to the UN agent known at HAIRY. It is now obvious that he is a UN sponsored anti semite bent on the destructin of the Judeo Christian way of life and is part of the UN pagan and secular global agenda. They have been known to infiltrate patriotic sites like this one and infuse them with propaganda. Their goal is to cloak themselves as academics , but their real goal is our total enslavement through gradual dissarmament of responsible citizens. May God Almightly bless every Israeli sniper and give them a steady triger pull and a steady hand. May Hamas, Hezbolah, and Al Quida perish with Arafat and Bin Laden. , and may we never forget Americans who fell to their death from the two burning towers and the PLO fat pig females who danced in the street.
God bless the United States and Israel, and our joint armed forces as we battle UN sponsored global tyrrany.
Oh good lord give me a break. [xx(]
And people call me the extremist around here?
"The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long..."
BTW, for you members who call yourselfs Christians--do Ruger22's comments represent the American Christian concepts?
There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.
Hypocrisy is the homage paid by vice to virtue.
Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain.
Member: NRA, RFC, John Birch Society.
"Right is Right, even is everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it"
HAIRY is not a nice person. My dog whines and hides when his name is mentioned.
God Bless America and...
NEVER Forget WACO
NEVER, EVER Forget 911
Amnesty International should be renamed "Looney Toons Back In Action"...Oh my mistake that title is already spoken for.[;)]
Hairy: May the fleas of 1,000 camels decend upon your armpits.
I have wanted to reply to Ruger22's posts many times but have not done so because I really wouldn't be posting what I wanted, and if I did post what I wanted, then it wouldn't be appropriate or in keeping with my self-imposed code of conduct (read that as rude, crude, and socially unsophisticated). So many things about this guy are so WRONG, I don't even know where to start, so I've chosen to ignore him completely rather than get involved in any unproductive arguments - and with him, I strongly suspect that any exchange of ideas would likely be very one-sided.
In any case, I understand what you're trying to do with this discussion with SaxonPig. Reading his responses to you, I was also frustrated in that I also respected his opinion and was surprised by his stance on this issue. What I don't get is how a lot of the folks here make the mistake of assuming, or deducing, that you support the terrorist actions of the extremist Palestinians.
Saxon, I think the crux of your disagreement with Hairy boils down to the fact that you see all Palestinians as either terrorists or pro-terrorist. Hairy does not think that all Palestinians are pro-terrorist. In your mind, any perceived support of the Palestinians is reprehensible because of this. Hairy simply does not believe that all Palestinians are suspect, and as such, should not be painted, or forced to paint, with the same broad brush you use.
To whom much is given, much is expected.