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CHRISTIANS?
mkirkland
Member Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭✭
I myself am a Chiristian, but for the last few weeks I have had a question with my readings in Numbers(31:15-18) I know this isn't a Christian forum but it seems there are a lot of men of God on this site and I view most of the things you say as wise. So how can God say Murder all the women who aren't virgins and slaughter the boys of the Midianites? I know war is neccessary and killing can be justified, but murder? I don't understand, Help me please!
Comments
It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so!
if your going to be a savage, be a headhunter
So I guess it depends upon which book you read and which part one conveniently ignores (for fun, ask a fundamentalist Christian about the 2 Genesis stories--the first, considered to be the oldest, has the deity creating man and woman equally; the second, considered to be a modification, has the deity creating man from whom woman is created. Sort of justifies his superiority, doesn't it?
It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so!
Edited by - Hairy on 09/29/2002 22:16:12
God hates sin. In the old testament those who were not God's chosen people were considered heathen (sin). When God said destroy every living thing it was akin to sin. When Adam fell there had to be an atonement for sin. Blood sacrafice. God killed the first animal to cloth the nakedness of Adam and Eve. Adam's failure to obey God opened the door to all the ills we face today. God is perfect. He gave man the ability to freely judge between good and evil. God made man a free moral agent. The angels in Heaven are not. They simply do the will of God. Man is unique in the fact God allows man to worship him or not to worship him.
As to why God waited so long. I guess God doesn't look at the same time piece you and I look at daily. To God a day could be as a thousand years. When you get to Heaven ask God. You'll have eternity to recieve an answer, that is as a free moral agent you accept his son as Savior. On the other hand if you refuse him you can ask satan
why he tried to overthrow God. There too you'll have eternity in hell to get an answer.
If you are a father yourself, you have a tiny little taste of what it must be like to be God the Father.
SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the best gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net
barto
the hard stuff we do right away - the impossible takes a little longer
It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so!
of things I don't understand that God did but I accept them
on faith. Why does God allow a young child to suffer? I don't know,
it bothers me more as I get older but someday I will know the answer.
As far as God saying to kill these folks and their children what is death compared to eternal HELL? Fails in comparison. So why do you have issues with that but not delivering people to eternal Hell? See my point? You must have compassion on children and women who don't follow God but in the end you go NO problem sending them to eternal Hell forever. You look at this like they murdered these folks out of cold blood. If you were to say to the judge in a court case that you neighbor is a liar and a is not a good neighbor and yet his was a great neighbor and in fact helped you many times, what do you think that persons deserves for lying about his neighbor? But yet God who is higher than any human is called a liar and no one believes his words. They say it is not Him who speakes and no one can know Him and yet He sends His only begotten Son into the world and His prophets to tell people He desires they turn from their ways and to Him to recieve life and yet they turn and spit in his face. Tr spitting in a human judges face and call him a liar......see where that gets you. Now how can you justify these folks who spit in Gods face and serve other Gods and say He is not the real God? A little lengthy there but you get the point.
Sir, we are both blowing smoke, but I at least have the courtesy to be smoking a fine cigar
The 10 Commandments were written in stone by God himself. There is no mistakes there. God still shows that the human being can't follow 10 simple rules. They can't follow 2 simple rules for that matter. Fighting with God is like bringing a knife to gun fight..........NOT TOO BRIGHT!!!!!!!
If it was written by men yet it was not inspired by men. Big difference. That is why the scarlet thread of salvation runs through it for over 6 thousand years and men didn't even know it till 2000 years ago. How is it David wrote about a LORD he never met and yet told exactly how he was and how you could know him when he came? How is it that God said no stone shall be built here 4000 years ago and to this day there is nothing built where a big city once was......not even a stone? Those who don't know the bible and it's prophecies should look into them to see if they happened. The Koran has 1 prophecy quoted in it and it has not come true. The bible has over 250 prophecies and they have come true down to the letter. Say what you want but don't do it out of ignorance. They didn't name all of human time(BC & AD) after Christ for no reason. Mind you that is universally recognized.
Sir, we are both blowing smoke, but I at least have the courtesy to be smoking a fine cigar
Also, a more accepted recognized dividing line, rather than the Christian AD-BC, happens to be CE-BCE (current era; before the current era).
The so-called "free will" theory is a sham established merely to keep the deity being worshiped from being identified as a fraud perpetuated on the gullible by the powerful. After all, who wants to worship a deity that can't do its job right?
It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so!
I believe there is a God, of that I have no doubt. Despite what Darwin would attempt to have us believe, a house will not build itself, regardless of how long you wait and neither does life come from lifeless mass. Perhaps there was a big bang, but that explosion of energy didn't come from out of the blue!
The bible claims that God is all powerful, omnipotent, the epitome of justice and love. I say god CANNOT be all of the above!
Why?
If God is everything the bible describes him to be, would he not be an accomplice to every great tragedy to befall mankind? If one has the power, foreknowledge and ability to prevent pain, suffering, or death and chooses not to act, doesn't that make them a party to it?
I hear many people say God blesses me everyday. Glad to hear God takes care of some people because there are thousands of hungry children who were in far more need of food than even a simple blessing.
God created man as a `free moral agent'. I guess that depends on your interpretation of the Bible. Your choice as a `free moral agent' being do as I say or be punished forever in hell.
Let's not forget that the earthly laws (Old Testament) were established WELL AFTER we were already imperfect. That's like faulting a crippled man for not being able to walk!
Who created Satan? According to the bible, god did.
Here's another interesting point. God waged a great war with Satan and cast him down to the Earth. If God is all powerful, how could one of his own creations battle with him?
Why was Satan given dominion over the Earth, and who gave him that power?
These and many, MANY other inconstancies are why I tend to doubt the bible's credibility.
If God is Omnipotent and all powerful then he is responsible for every good and bad thing to ever befall his creations, thereby making him the savior and the Satan.
If God is not all powerful or omnipotent, he might be the loving, just god the bible claims him to be.
"God works in mysterious ways" is not an answer it's a cop out.
"Who are you to question god", we are the one's suffering.
"You have no faith", `Faith without WORKS is dead'
The itsy, bitsy spider crawled up the water...
BLAM BLAM BLAM!
Edited by - thesupermonkey on 09/30/2002 17:44:40
Supermonkey, I know not one person who knows evolution is a fact, that would say it proves there is no god. While I am an atheist, It is clear that at some point in the consideration of the universe, its history and the forces that shape it, one must make a leap of faith. At some point the only answer is: is, was, and ever shall be. Usually it is the answer to the question, "where did god come from?" Neither where god came from nor where the universe (which is finite, not infinite, though inconceiveably huge)came from is answerable. Perhaps a god did create the universe, but clearly evolution is the means by which he brought about changes in the living things on this planet. Religion is the means by which man reconciles his own existence with an unknowable and frightening universe. A lot of people seem to derive a lot of comfort from fiddling with their religion, and that is not bad. On the other hand, there is little more dangerous than a fanatic, and religious fanatics are as dangerous as any, as we have recently had reason to know. History shows that Christian fanatics are as dangerous as any other.
If I understand correctly, you believe there is a god, but that god has no direct impact on anyone's life. (That's reasonable.) I once read that the reason this world came into being was that among the GODS, all new Gods had to create a world to show their power. The character who made this one screwed up, and we're the result. Because it was made by a god, things just have to run their course.
It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so!
Munkey, here is my take on it, God did this deal cuz he was bored. And because he desires a relationship with Man, a true relationship such as found with Husband and Wife where interaction takes place both knowing what it takes to make the relationship work. Not a forced relationship such as between a Man and his cattle. God gave us a Free will, so as to choose to accept His ways, and later His Son Jesus as our Savior. The Garden of Eden was perfect. Adam and Eve were perfect. However the tree of KNOWLEDGE was a great temptation for Eve and she fell to that temptation. Thus the fall of man and the struggles you and I are aware of.
I wonder about such things you mention only for a while. From the time of Eden, Mans quest for perfect knowledge is a never-ending. In fact, If I was better about the scripture I believe I could find where God advises against such efforts. I believe in God and his promises by Faith. That is enough for me. Now bad things happen as they say "it rains on the just and unjust alike" and I have no clue why. As a buddy lay dying at 37 from Melanoma, I recognized there was not a thing I could do about it and found solace in trusting there was a reason for it. I could not disregard what God did for me based on what happened to another Christian Brother. I still do not understand it, however I believe there will come a day where I do.
In the end, I go back to the relationship God desires with us, One where we seek to do his will not where his will is forced on us resulting in the perfect world you describe. That would be boring.
If you have one shot...Accu-Shot Website
It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so!
Often the mind believes it is thinking, when it is only passing from one metaphor to the next.
It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so!
Often the mind believes it is thinking, when it is only passing from one metaphor to the next.
As a side note, seems I learned about BC and AD as a timeline in grade school. They still teach that in publik schools? I'm going to ask my three and see.
If you have one shot...Accu-Shot Website
It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so!
Assuming the bible is God's word, wouldn't you agree it's rather cryptic and convoluted for an all powerful, all knowing author?
If not, why would there be such a vast diversity of Christian sects?
The basics of all religions have common moral threads but the details vary widely, and the 'devil is in the details' as they say. Many of these religions claim to be the single true religion. If that were true, the odds of you being in the right one are slim to none! God may have expressed himself clearly, but the writings passed through imperfect human hands first.
There is one thing that bothers me above all others.
When asking any 'Christian' what was God's greatest gift to mankind, they will no doubt answer 'the ransom of his son Jesus Christ'. I guess it never dawns on them why that sacrifice was necessary. That sacrifice was necessary because God chose to hold ALL mankind responsible for the actions of the first human couple (Justice?). After which he established laws which no human could hope to live by due to our imperfection (More of that Justice?). Therefore we HAD to have a ransom sacrifice to redeem us from our sinful state. Clear as mud...
If God's version of justice never changes, it's amazing slavery and prostitution aren't commonly accepted today. - Exodus 21
The itsy, bitsy spider crawled up the water...
BLAM BLAM BLAM!
Edited by - thesupermonkey on 10/01/2002 08:53:33
It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so!
The itsy, bitsy spider crawled up the water...
BLAM BLAM BLAM!
Please don't take offense at this, but you really seem to know a lot about the Bible and things religious. Mind telling what motivated this interest?
If you have one shot...Accu-Shot Website
I think he's just trying to show us something, not that his system is flawed. It only looks that way to us. Our plumblines are wack compared to his, by definition.
"Free" will is a loaded term. Watch out you don't swallow hype about how free "free" is.
I have to (laughing hard) agree with DancesW/Sheep.
Dude, you might enjoy browsing the FAQ section at a site called "A Christian Think Tank". Some guy named Glenn does some brain stretchin' mental gymnastics, exegetin' this kinda stuff.
His hate mail is a scream. Check it out.
I get there thru Google. I am weak w/links, but maybe this:
http://www.AChristianThinkTank.com/
MR. mouse
Have done and am doing a lot of reading and studying on the subject; have been exposed to Catholicism, Judism, Baptist--both Northern and Southern, Methodist, Salvation Army (used to sing in the choir and ring the bells at Xmas time). Never stole any money from the pot, tho.
At age 17 was shipped to Okinawa where I learned of Buddhism and if hard pressed, would say I accept that philosophy (no deity). This was enhanced by tours in Taiwan and Vietnam. Time in Egypt and Saudi Arabia introduced me to Islam and the Coptic Christians.
So, after all that, I still read both Moffit's and Scofield's edition as well as the Koran; Sutras from time to time, and the Tanach when I really want to see how the Jews understood the passage. Study Philo and Josephus (those are hard to go thru) occasionally; and for comparison, I read Bullfinch's Mythology as well as other authors on world myths.
Am struck by the ancient Egyptian religious symbols: for example, did you know that the priests and male members of the royal family were circumcised? Recall Moses was an Egyptian priest in his youth. Am also struck by the god Anubis (he's the one hovering over the casket); he judges the sins of the recently deceased and they are weighed against a feather. If the scale tips, there is a crocodile under the casket waiting to devour the "soul" and consign it to oblivion! Think judgement day?
Still interested in the subject and don't think I'll ever learn enough. Raised my son to be moral, not religious. Hope I succeeded.
Thanks for asking and giving me the chance to share with you.
It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so!
Honestly, I'm glad I'm not a scholar, that I can accept a simple belief in God. I mean no slight against you by saying that. I just feel that because I lack that need for knowledge, that accepting God as I know him, is easy. And I have found those that seek the absolute have difficulty in faith based beliefs. People, we are different and I'm thankful for that.
I'll tell my Grace story on another thread.
If you have one shot...Accu-Shot Website
May you achieve what your faith offers.
It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so!
And by Grace, I will.
If you have one shot...Accu-Shot Website
Computers run on pure logic. Humans (for the most part,) don't.
Although I stated that man, not God, wrote the Bible, I do believe in God very firmly, specifically from many things that I have experienced in my own life, not from the teachings of a church. Many of these things would be painful to go into, and some would be joyous, but I'll spare all of you that.
I DO have a problem with the Christian who figures if he goes to church every Sunday, he can do whatever he wants the rest of the week. I do have a problem with one who believes that certain words in the bible entitle them to feel pious and judgemental of others who may not belong to the same denomination. It seems to me that denominational religiosity is, in its own way, actually the antithesis of what my known figure of my saviour stands for.
Religion is a very personal thing, whether a member of an organized church or not, and I mean no disrespect towards anyone who believes differently.
My personal church is the woods, and my personal savior is Jesus Christ. Now, before y'all pick me apart, I'm just stating what I believe, and I'm no biblical scholar, nor any other kind of scholar. Wait a month from now and repost this discussion and tell me what everyone said without re-reading it.......It will not come out the same, ergo, the fallibility of man. Or, ergo the importance of a Bible?
Anything is open to personal interpretation, and there is your free will. Which didn't magically appear by some galactic implosion....it came from someplace, not instinct, either. Mankind can reason, sub-human animals operate on instinct.
Just my opinion, and some of yours are right, and some are wrong, according to me.
There are absolutes, yes, easily proven through pure logic. However, I do not personally believe that metaphysics are properly part of a religious discussion. To me, my beliefs are axiomatic, unable to discuss unless they are true, which is the proper epistemological definition af an axiom.
To attempt to prove that to anyone would be futile, but could be fun on a very long night with the coyotes yapping in the background.....
And upon rising the next day, unless one of the parties was of a weak will, no minds would be changed.
I agree that ones attendance to a Church building on a set day/days does not make one "religious" other than in the act itself. I'm fortunate to have a great Church to go to and some really good folks to fellowship with. It is from my relationship with God that I find myself being religious in my actions. What I believe in is a personal relationship with God that knows no boundaries, yours being in the woods is an example. (please don't say you have a certain Tree shrine where sacrifices are made... ) Many a time I've sat and watched and listened to the woods come alive and just thanked God for letting me be there, in "Church" in His building with Him. That is personal.
As far as different religions go, I am very, very, cautious to be judgmental about them. That is not my place. My place is to share Jesus, not force feed anyone. I don't understand some of them nor am I inclined to explore them due to limited time and mental capacity but most of all lack of desire. I mean, if your catching fish, why move?
Anyhow, I have a box of strike anywhere's but I refuse to take a stinking Dictionary to any campfire discussion. So if we go, leave them dollar words at home or I'll have to bring my nine year old to translate for me!
If you have one shot...Accu-Shot Website