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Question,renounced U.S.citizen selling firearms?

jjmitchell60jjmitchell60 Member Posts: 3,887
edited December 2003 in General Discussion
I know that the WalMarts that my ol lady works at has been doing several "straw sells" and saw a sales lady turn away a kid today that tried to do it. This sales lady is straught up and is also a friend of the ol lady's so she was telling me about something that is going on at that WalMarts. One of the sales people in the sporting good counter and one who does a lot of the firearm sales was a naturalized citizen. Well it seems that when we invaded Iraqi this time he formly renounced his citizienship in writing to the U.S. Government in protest to the Iraqi War. Well he is still selling firearms and handling the ammo sales as well. Is it legal for someone who has renounced his/her citizen ship to handle firearms or ammo. On the yellow sheet it asks if you have renounced your citizen ship. I know that the WalMarts in question is being investigated for straw sales! I have looked for the answer to the question as to whether or not a noncitizen or one who has renounced their U.S.citizenship can sell ammo or firearms in a retail store but have not found an answer yet. Anyone on here know?

"we are but men... no more, no less..."

Comments

  • ATFATF Member Posts: 13,304
    edited November -1
    The salesperson does not make out a #4473 form (Yellow) he just fills in a small amount of info like I.D.and records make,model & serial number.I've never seen anything saying you had to be a Citizen to do this?

    [?]


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    Why is it that our children can't read a Bible in school, but they
    can in prison?

    ATF,Eagle Guns
  • Ruger22Ruger22 Member Posts: 385
    edited November -1
    If he renounced his U.S citizenship, he is too high of a risk and may be a potential terrorist, or related savage or barbarian.

    Brian Ostro.
    member: NRA, John Birch Society, American Numismatic Association.
  • 44mag44mag Member Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I do not know what the law is on this situtation but, if this person is a raghead, I would contact the ATFE just for the general principal. Maybe we can get rid on another one.
  • Ruger22Ruger22 Member Posts: 385
    edited November -1
    He is also a hypocrite if he continues to take advantage of the benefits offered by our Republic and takes advante of our infrastructure by living here.

    Brian Ostro.
    member: NRA, John Birch Society, American Numismatic Association.
  • mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 24,511 ******
    edited November -1
    If you are a legal resident and have the ability to work here in the United States legally then this is all you need to be employed with an FFL holder on a federal level (state laws vary). You don't need to be a citizen in order to witness the form 4473, call in the info, sign it and date it.

    Mark T. Christian
  • jjmitchell60jjmitchell60 Member Posts: 3,887
    edited November -1
    I went to the regulations and this seems to be a "grey" area in the regulations. In one section it states that a person can be a clerk for a FFL holder and sell/handle transfer of firearms including pistols if under age 18 with parents permission but there again farther on down in another section it states that if a person cannot legally buy a firearm for given reasons, it lists being a felon as an example, then you cannot sell/transfer firearms as a clerk or manager for a FFL holder! On the yellow sheet being a felon as well as renouncing your citizenship are reasons you cannot buy a firearm but there again so is being under age 18?!?!? Like I stated it is very confusing. This same store has a lot of "straw" purchaseing going on as well so who knows what will come out. Thanks for all your input but I was just wondering because it is such a grey area as is mny firearm regulations! I wonder, the man in question was a naturalized citizen then renounced it so where does that put him in legal standing as to his status in this country. He has been in the U.S. for 40 years!

    "we are but men... no more, no less..."
  • mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 24,511 ******
    edited November -1
    Being employed selling firearms at a gun shop and purchasing a firearm are two totally unrelated activities. I started working in a gun store at the age of 17 and often sold handguns and long guns (with my mother's permision on file with the store's owner). Although I was an employee at the store I was still under age and could not purchase my own ammunition or firearms. In sure a phone call to the INS can enlighten you as to the laws and regulations dealing with renouncing ones citizenship but I doubt that such an act results in instant deportation or automatic loss of employment. jj, are you the same fellow that I had to spend two days explaining the differences to between the National Firearms Act and the 1994 Crime Bill? If so then I may have my work cut out for me again!

    Mark T. Christian
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    The sales person is not the FFL holder, he is a rep for WAL-Mart, which is the actual seller,

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  • jjmitchell60jjmitchell60 Member Posts: 3,887
    edited November -1
    First of all no I am not the person that you had to tell the differences between the two too. I am fairly knowledgeable of the rules being I am an agent for my fathers gun shop but what I am talking about is this: A person who has been a U.S. citizen and then renounces their citizenship cannot purchase a firearm period. There is no question that if they answer yes to that question they are disqualified. OK, now as to minors selling I am not disputing that but I have the regulations on that and it would disqualify a minor (under 21) from selling in a shop if: they cannot purchase a firearm or if they are under 18, the parent or guardian who signs that the juvenile can sell guns in a shop cannot themselves purchase a firearm! Here is the web site and the exact wording of the question as posted on the ATF regulations. With the below in mind, a person who has committed a felon cannot sell handgun ammo, handguns, or any firearms due to the fact they are prohibited from ownership of a firearm. Also it only lists a felon as an example and does not specify if the other disqualifing offenses,ie. domestic violence, dishonorable discharge, mental, drugs, and renounceing U.S. citizenship also apply. This is where i say it is a gray area and can be read that a person who renounces their U.S. citizenship cannot work as a manager or clerk that does sell firearms. I am no Attorney but I do know that the burden of proof would be on the clerk rather than the ATF. It would be the same if lets say my 17 year old daughter worked in my fathers shop. Lets say that for some reason I renounced my U.S. citizenship out of pure stupidity. If I sign a letter stating that she can sell handguns or ammo then because I am prohibited from owning firearms, she cannot sell the handguns or ammo. Read the below as to what the ATF regulation is. You be the judge but I would not want to run a shop and hire anyone that is prohibited from owning a firearm to sell them due to prohibitive reasons except age and have the ATF come in.

    http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/qa.pdf


    Conduct Of Business - Licensees

    (F4) May an employee of a licensed dealer, such as a manager or clerk, who is under 21 years of age, sell handguns and ammunition suitable for use in handguns for the licensee?

    Answer: Yes, if the employee is not a prohibited person (e.g., a felon). However, to sell handguns, a person less than 18 years of age must have the prior written consent of a parent or legal guardian and the wrirren consent must be in the person's possession at all tmes. Also, the parent or guardian giving the written consent may not be prohibited by law from possessing a firearm.

    page 17 of 52
    [18 U.S.C. 922(x)]

    The above comes straight from the ATF web site.
    If there are spelling mistakes I am sorry but MSN is kicking me offline every 3 minutes for some dumb reason!



    "we are but men... no more, no less..."
  • bambihunterbambihunter Member Posts: 10,627 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'd be willing to bet that if he renounced his citizenship that he didn't get citizenship somewhere else, nor the work visa to be here. It sounds to me that he is now an illegal and likely hasn't followed all the steps required for him to still be here working.

    Alternatively, he might have just been a blow-hard and never did what he said he did...

    It matters not how many times you've been knocked down. What matters is how many times you've stood back up.
    Fanatic collector of the 10mm auto.
  • Jonny BopJonny Bop Member Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    i would think renouncing ones citizenship would be a form of treason, anyone else feel that way. If memory serves me correctly, treason is punishable by death. Just my two cents[:)]

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    "From My Cold Dead Hands"
  • MercuryMercury Member Posts: 7,731 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Why would it be treason? I can't think of anything MORE patriotic than renouncing your citizenship. ONLY IN AMERICA could you do that! That is the entire POINT of "FREEDOM".

    People just can't see what FREEDOM really is.


    Just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean it shouldn't be legal!

    See my signature.

    Merc (a happy US citizen!)



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  • Jonny BopJonny Bop Member Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    if you renounce your citizenship, in my mind you should renounce your rights also

    [IMG]c:\charlton_heston2.jpg[/IMG]
    "From My Cold Dead Hands"
  • BoomerangBoomerang Member Posts: 4,513
    edited November -1
    Treason is an "act or action " against ones own country during time of war. While it s true we are at war, this man (vermin) has committed no act against our country, so treason does not apply in this case. I agree with you, his renoucement of his citizenship is despicable, and I would not buy from him. You could relay your feelings to the store manager about this and see what he does. They may transfer him to different part of the store, or better yet give him a really crappy job. Sadly, this country has enough "fair weather" citizens as it is.[:(!][V] It just so happens that it seems that most are democrats.

    Now as for a criminal act, if in deed straw purchaes are being made at this store this should be reported to the appropriate agencies as these are violations of the rules governing the sale of firearms.

    Boomer

    "Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as it is by the obstacles which one has overcome while trying to succeed"

    NRA Life Member
  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,937 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by jjmitchell60

    Well it seems that when we invaded Iraqi this time he formly renounced his citizienship in writing to the U.S. Government in protest to the Iraqi War.

    Sure he did.[|)]
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