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Snipers
tacking1
Member Posts: 3,844
have y'all seen the show on the history channel about snipers?
Thay is a cool documentary!
Russia had 2000 women trained as snipers with several getting 300-500 kills. Some went against the best greman snipers and won. They even interviewed on that talked about her experience and getting wounded. It was great.
Then they went and covered the Royal Marines snipers. They shoot a rifle that I would love you people to talk about. It is an ???AI .336??? I think. Those cats laid out some pretty cool shots!
Let's hear comments.
Thay is a cool documentary!
Russia had 2000 women trained as snipers with several getting 300-500 kills. Some went against the best greman snipers and won. They even interviewed on that talked about her experience and getting wounded. It was great.
Then they went and covered the Royal Marines snipers. They shoot a rifle that I would love you people to talk about. It is an ???AI .336??? I think. Those cats laid out some pretty cool shots!
Let's hear comments.
Comments
The 338Lapua is basicly a shortened and necked down 416Rigby case, ballisticly it is just ahead af the 338RUM and equil to the wildcat 338-300RUM (baised on the powder capacity of the respective cartridges).
Picture and statistics below.
I think that with the advent of the Canadian Armed Forces switching over to the PGWDTI Titanium rifles, the Brits will be following in the next few years. This is not to say that the AI is a lesser rifle, it's not. In fact, it's a fabulous rifle as far as accuracy, design and portability is concerned. I owned and shot one in the .308 Win. version a few years ago and it was scary accurate for me out to 600 yards. That was as far as I could shoot with the ranges available. It was the only rifle that I never bothered to reload for, I just shot FGMM and never needed to go any further. I wish I had it back for some drills at +1,000 yards now.
I usually disagree with statements about the .338 Lapua having any sort of an edge on the .338 RUM because it's simply not true. I realize that Tailgunner is referring to case capacity alone so I'm not being critical of his statement at all. Point of fact, there isn't a nickel's worth of difference between the two cartridges to warrant statements of advantages as far as the ballistics are concerned. This is where the wannabes jump in to say that when they shoot at 2,500 yards, the Lapua shows its advantage. Most folks can't see 2,500 yards let alone shoot at a target accurately at that range. It is the "tactical/sniper" wannabes that parrot the advertising hyperboles regarding the .338 Lapua and most of them have never even shot anything approaching either one of these cartridges. This dis-information has a snowball effect whereby all of the other wannabes won't be caught without their .338 Lapua because that's what all the "real snipers" use. And it continues to build on itself.
One of the very basic advantages of the .338 RUM is that you don't have to have a special receiver to use this cartridge. It fits in the standard Remington 700 with a 0.532" boltface but with the mag box that has the cut-outs in it. The Lapua on the other hand, requires a special size receiver (and more difficult to find as a separate receiver) to accommodate the 0.590" boltface and the bigger girth of the Lapua. They are both roughly the same length. The Mark V Weatherby's will work as will the larger CZ's and a few custom made receivers with enormous prices.
As impressive as it sounds to say that you own a .338 Lapua, I'm quite happy and secure to shoot the .338 RUM and go head-to-head with the Lapua folks.
Caliber: L96, AW, AW Police, AW Folding: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308 win); Super Magnum: .338 Lapua (8.60x70mm), .300 Win Mag, 7mm Rem Mag
Operation: Bolt Action
Length: 1270mm
Barrel lenght: 686mm (.338 Lapua), 660mm (.300 and 7mm)
Weight: 6.8kg empty without telescope
Magazine Capacity: 5 round box magazine
Maximum Effective Range: ca. 800 meters for 7.62mm NATO variants, 1100+ meters for Magnum variants
In early 1980's British Army started the search for the replacement of the aging L42 Enfield sniper rifles. Main compettitors were british companies Parker-Hale with their model 82 bolt action rifle, and Accuracy International, with their PM rifle. Eventually, PM rifle won the competition and was accepted by British Army under the designation of L96
One of the most notorious features of the PM rifle was design of the stock. Instead of the solid polymer or wooden stock, PM/L96 used hollow polymer stock, made from two halves and assembled around aluminium bedding block, that extends to whole stock lenght. L96 also was equipped with backup iron sights.
In mid-1980s Sweden forces began their own quest for the new sniper rifle, that could survive heavy nordic environments. The AI again become the winner in this race with improved L96 design, named "Arctic warfare". In 1988 Swedish forces adopt AW rifle in 7.62mm NATO chambering under the designation of PSG.90. British Army, in its turn, also adopted this improved design under the designation of L96A1, as well as many other militaries and Law Enforcement agencies around the world. In 1998, the Bundeswehr (Germany Army) also adopted the AW Super Magnum rifle chambered in .300 Winchester magnum (germany designation 7.62x67mm) as Scharfschutzengewehre (sniper rifle - german) G22.
Built by Accuracy International of Portsmuth, England, this line of rifles is among the best in the World of sniper rifles today. This rifle can shot less than 2" (51mm) groups at the distances of 600 yards (550m), using boat-tail match ammunition. Arctic Warfare is a line of 5 rifles. Original Arctc Warfare was designed for the British military. It gained its designation by special anti-icing features, allowing sniping operations to be carried out under Arctic conditions as low as -40C (-104F)! Other models are Police (AWP), Suppressed (AWS), Folding (AWF) and Super Magnum (AW SM). Three first rifles designed for 7.62mm NATO ammunition, while Super Magnum can be chambered in .338 Lapua Magnum, .300 Winchester Magnum and 7mm Remington Magnum. AW has a 26" (660mm) barrel, AWP has 24" (609mm). AW SM barrels available in lentths from 24" (609mm) to 27" (686mm). The standart scopes supplied by Accuracy International are Smidt&Bender 3-12X variable or the Leupold Mark 4 fixed 10X scope.
ADDED:
http://www.snipercentral.com/rifles.htm
http://www.sniperworld.com/
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn00-e.htm (rifle menu on left side)
http://www.snipercountry.com/
http://www.snipersparadise.com/
http://www.snipershide.com/
You missed the point that of the 2000 trained, only 500 survived. Unfortunately, the other 1500 weren't available for comment.
True, but this is 60 odd years later, I would be curious to know how many actually survived the war...
As the difference in barrels alone is often 100fps, the real world difference is nill.
However, one does not need that much gun for people,....a 300win mag would fill the bill nicely.
Vasili Zeitsef and Carlos Hathcock were IMHO the best there was.
it's all about fieldcraft. otherwise you're not as effective and you are less likely to survive. since being a militay sniper doesn't require all the physical activity of typical infantry like running all over, carrying heavy loads or typical infantry combat, women have no problem doing it. In any country it's not unusual to have women snipers.
as far as marksmanship goes, women can be just as skilled as men. Just like you can always find women that are better than most guys at pool. Or driving a car. or drawing art. etc.
Or being sneaky... lying to your face... etc.
I was trying to agree with you not be disagreeable.
JustC,
Belt? I agree with the price but here is a potential new supplier:
"Well guys, here are some calibers, prices, and delivery times."
338 Lapua - $1.25
300 Win Mag - $0.75
300 or 7mm Ultra Mag - $0.85
408 Cheytac - $1.60
Minimum order is 100 pieces.
"We are currently backlogged 3-4 weeks, so orders placed now will ship in early to mid June.
Other calibers, including short mags will be added to the list shortly.
Thanks for all the interest guys."
http://accuratebrass.com/
mailto: sales@accuratebrass.com
He apparently is straight up with these prices and if so, I may take another whack at the 408 Chey-Tac. The .338 Snipe~Tac has too much case capacity for my tastes.
Best.
Tailgunner,
I was trying to agree with you not be disagreeable.
No disagreement at all, simply backing up your statements as to the lack of real world difference between the 2 rounds (in my normal, round about way)
and you got me there,..I was thinking of another parent case with a belt. I think the 416 and 404 case is the basis for a whole new breed of superb chamberings in any number of lengths.
best I can tell is that these guns shoot a long way accurately?
are the optics secured differently as they must have to take some abuse as you willy around on your stomach getting into position?
Might I suggest you pick up a copy of "Marine Sniper, 93 Confirmed Kills" (the Carlos Hathcock story) by Charles W. Henderson. There is a reasonable amount of detail on "what it takes" both in terms of equipment (not a lot of real world change there), skill, experance and attitude to survive as a sniper in combat.
Its a different concept than blazing away with a 12 guage!
Clouder..
Everyone acts that way towards the spoons DWS.
Kinda hard to believe you just noticed it coming from only the snipers as you were dishing out their SOS?
strange.
Kinda hard to believe you just noticed it coming from only the snipers as you were dishing out their SOS?
strange.
I'm sorry, I recognize this is English, but I have no idea what it means.
He guided me through some of my first purchases, although not as a salesman.
When I finally did ask what he did in the war, it was one quiet work. "Sniper".
He's the kind of guy you'd want as a dad. A little like Burl Ives meets Range Officer.
has anyone seen the new show "future weapons" with the ex navy seal guy ? its okay but kind of a tease.
DWS- All were pogues??; I think there's a potential for a sniper to be impressed by himself (and thus come across as a pogue), much in the way Barry Sadler came across as as SF; But I met quite a few graduates of the Sniper School @ Camp Pendleton that were fairly normal, or at least, not any worse than your average 0331.
I am talking about Vietnam nearly forty years ago, not Camp Pendleton, and I am not so much talking about them being impressed with themselves or me not being impressed with them as them having an easy time of it compared to the rest of us. None of these guys was a Hathcock by any means; yet they lived better than we did, they ate better than we did, and frankly I didn't know a man in my squad who couldn't have done the job just as well, Sniper School be damned. Mortarmen may be the dumbest bunch of bozos in the Marine Corps, but snipers take the cake for skating by.
bitter, bitter, bitter, bitter, bitter, bitter
Damn right. But what would you know about it, sonny? You watch TV and that's all you do.
That's what I am talking about- the snipers that I knew went through the sniper school at Camp Pendleton in 1967. That was before Maj Land got the revised school going, at least outside of Hawaii, and the Pendleton school was primarily an advanced marksmanship school, whereas normal qualification used M14s with iron sights at 200,300 & 500 yards, the sniper course was 600 and 900 yards using 3-9X Redfields on M700s. then they were sent to Vietnam, and I don't know what they did in other units, but the one assigned to 4/11 ran patrols and guard duty like the rest of us. Additionally, since his "sniper rifle" was an M14 with a starlight scope attached, he was on duty everynight whether he was assigned a post or not. The ones assigned to 1/5 would go out with an ambush/patrol, then drop off and stay out for a day or two. I suppose that could be considered skating, since while out there they got to lay-around, hiding, but it was a dangerous way to relax. I am finding that different units did things really differently.
In '65, 9th Marines snipers billetted with Battalion Recon. Their hooches were elevated out of the mud and they had hard roofs; we were in tents with pallet floors. They ate with Recon and Headquarters Company, not in the ghetto with the rest of us. In the field they joined and left operations the way NFL players fly in and out for games. So they would go out on ambushes. BFD. For every week we were in the field, they were there two days, three days tops. Where they were the rest of the time I have no idea, but they always had on clean utilities when we got back.
quote:Originally posted by AlbertLum
bitter, bitter, bitter, bitter, bitter, bitter
Damn right. But what would you know about it, sonny? You watch TV and that's all you do.
i am happier than you.
i am happier than you.
Of course you are. Mommy gave you a cookie.
The valid point is that different units/commanders treated the men under their command differently. In DWS it sounds like the snipers were a little more elite than the snipers that I was with in the 5th and 11th Marines, where they did everything everyone else did, including being assigned to specific squads on sweeps and being out with the regulars for the duration of the involvement. As a result, the snipers were as grubby as everyone else by the time they came back to a tent.
Oh, they were assigned to a specific squad or platoon in the field, but they certainly weren't out for the duration and they certainly lived a lot better than we did. That they would sometimes stand guard and go out on patrols was only as expected, but they really weren't needed and doing the same as everyone else always seemed beneath them. As I said, none of them were stars or thousand yard shooters, and none of them were that much of an asset in a firefight. There was always a palpable distance between us and them, and I think that distance was deliberate on the part of our Regiment CO.