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Inline Muzzleloader vs. Sidelock

cletus85cletus85 Member Posts: 2,104 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited August 2003 in General Discussion
Let's take the scopes and nostalgia out of the picture. Do you see a big advantage (unfair, or less sporting) of inline muzzleloaders as compared to modern sidelocks.

Comments

  • bambihunterbambihunter Member Posts: 10,792 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The inlines are typically more accurate and can shoot more powder which gives them more effective range. They typically have better open sights as well, which on many inlines are fiber-optic's.
    That's about it in my opinion as far as sporting differences go. I really feel a lot safer with my Remington 700MLS (inline) than I do with my old sidelock and inlines are SOOOOO much easier to properly clean. That said, I've shot over 50 deer with a sidelock and ~ 20 with all other types of guns put together (I THINK I've got 7 with my inline, but I'm not sure).
    Remember that inline's aren't a new thing, they were actually invented several centuries ago (back in the late 1700's I think).
    Fanatic collector of the 10mm auto.
  • cletus85cletus85 Member Posts: 2,104 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bambihunter, with all that experience with a Muzzleloader, which is exactly what I am looking for, how do you think saboted bullets compare to conicals as far as effectiveness on deer? I've killed only 3 so far with muzzleloaders (all inline) 2 with conicals and one with a 250gr xtp 45 cal sabot. I have been fine tuning my Knight T-Bolt and doing a little chronographing, so far accuracy wise I'm getting the best with my Homebrewed combo: a Harvester sabot and 44 cal, 240gr Sierra. Give some more advice please!
  • jjmitchell60jjmitchell60 Member Posts: 3,887
    edited November -1
    Side lock, side lock, side lock, side lock, & round ball![;)] I guess you figured out where my loyality lies!

    The in-lines are getting more and more to the accuracy/velocity of some modern guns. With that said then I think they should be used during modern season and as some states have it, primitive seasons should be at least side locks. I shoot flinters myself. There is a huge difference in the accuracy in the saboted bullits verses the round ball and the conicals. The inlines are less sporting but they are by definition still front stuffers so they are legal in the state I live in. There again we all do not drive the same car so we all do not shoot the same guns! I will say this though, with more and more people switching to in-lines, there are some really good bargains to be had on side locks out there. Personal choice, that is what freedom is for. If you like in-lines then shoot them just don't try to convert those of us that are pure traditionalists![;)]

    As to being unfair, that is a mute point. I pride myself on getting the deer within 20 yards anyway so no matter what I shoot they are close enough to hit!
  • Matt45Matt45 Member Posts: 3,185
    edited November -1
    quote:Side lock, side lock, side lock, side lock, & round ball!

    I'll cast a second vote for that statement[:)].

    fm_cr.jpgcomp45.gif

    Reserving my Right to Arm Bears!!!!

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    Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands."
    Guess what?
    You have the wrong hands.
  • bambihunterbambihunter Member Posts: 10,792 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    cletus85, it depends on the gun. A slower twist rifling available in most sidelocks are meant for a patched roundball whereas a faster twist is meant for conicals and sabots. If you were to shoot roundball out of your Knight your accuracy would suffer greatly. As far as knock-down, I can't tell the difference and it doesn't appear the deer can either. I've had just a few (I can only think of 3) that didn't fall where they were struck.
    I also shoot a 240 grain sabot .44 caliber bullet out of my Remington 700MLS and it is very accurate. I am not using magnum power out of it, I am only using 100 grains of powder as accuracy suffered greatly at above 120 grains. For my sidelock, I use a greased patched roundball (.491 I think - I have a mould so I don't remember) and 120 grains of FFG on a 32" barreled gun

    jjmitchell60, I have to disagree about the inlines being less sporting. Maybe I am niave, maybe I'm not exploiting my gun to its potential. They do allow for a little more reach than the sidelocks and they don't misfire as often, but that can be controlled on sidelock with proper maintainance and preventative care. As you can tell about my ratio of sidelock kills to the others I'm a firm believer of them, but I haven't found much advantage to the others aside from that which I mentioned. I've taken most of my deer at 75 yards or under, in fact I'd bet 85% or better would be under 45 yards and 1 deer I literally could have kicked in the head from my low treestand. The only exceptions were one at 165 yards freehand with my .300 winmag, and another at 250 prone from the same gun. I even took one with my .50 10" pistol at 45 yards while I was on the ground stalking. Actually, that's how I got at least half of my deer is on the ground stalking them. I used to get bored sitting and waiting so I'd get down and go after them. Now however, my back doesn't like the sitting or standing very well so I have to choose my style wisely and make the most of my "vertical" time.

    Here's what I have:
    Sidelock (they're selling it new again for a limited production run, it's the classic, not the hunter version): http://www.cva.com/products/rifles/mount.htm

    inline (mine's the MLS version) http://www.remington.com/firearms/muzzleloader/fi_700ml.htm
    Fanatic collector of the 10mm auto.
  • powdersmokepowdersmoke Member Posts: 3,241
    edited November -1
    Prefer the sidelock, but can't say I have any problem with an in-line per se'. Just personal preference. Having said that I feel that sidelocks are the way to go if you want to be 'traditional', despite in-lines or a version of the in-line being available in the 1700s they were not widely used.

    Just my two cents

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    When you wrestle a 'gator, there ain't no good end!!

    "Molon Labe!" Spartan General-King Leonidas
  • allen griggsallen griggs Member Posts: 35,695 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have killed 12 big game animals with patched round ball, all under 80 yards. I have found it to be a very effective killer, and to drop the deer quicker than my 30-06 does. I know that isn't what the ballistics charts say, damn deer just won't read those charts is the problem.
    I am now off on the great adventure of inlines and sabots, because I had to get a scope because my vision isn't so good. Obviously I have better range with the scope.
    I will be doing a lot of hunting this year with the Hornady XTP in a .50, will give a hunting report in a few weeks.
  • scoutfowlerscoutfowler Member Posts: 42 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I had a sidelock percussion and sold it after I inherited my father's old H&A carbine. I just recently found this guy selling kits and custom H&A guns. http://muzzleloading.biz I can not rave enough about the benefit of the underhammer as an ambidextrous inline with the nostalgia still in it. Christmas looks like a 12 ga so I can bird and turkey hunt with one!

    Colin B. Fowler
  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Matt45
    Side lock, side lock, side lock, side lock, & round ball!

    I'll cast a second vote for that statement


    [:0]I just know you meant FLINTLOCK[^],but I'll go with sidelock cap afore I go inline.They used to call it a PRIMATIVE season around here,so primative,ya ok I'll shutup[;)]....side lock,sidelock,sidelock[:D]....L.H.
  • anderskandersk Member Posts: 3,627 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I just got my first muzzle loader - a T/C Omega 50 - one sweet gun. It is a pretty high-tech smoke pole. I shot it this last June when out in Iowa. Very accurate out of the box. I hope to take it deer hunting in Massachusetts this winter.[:)]

    I'm not sure what all the buzz is about the primitive side locks. I'm a lefty and the junk in your face is not so great! I've tried them and decided to go with the more modern equipment ... no regrets so far! If they change the laws, I may have some serious regrets![:(!]
  • powdersmokepowdersmoke Member Posts: 3,241
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by andersk
    I just got my first muzzle loader - a T/C Omega 50 - one sweet gun. It is a pretty high-tech smoke pole. I shot it this last June when out in Iowa. Very accurate out of the box. I hope to take it deer hunting in Massachusetts this winter.[:)]

    I'm not sure what all the buzz is about the primitive side locks. I'm a lefty and the junk in your face is not so great! I've tried them and decided to go with the more modern equipment ... no regrets so far! If they change the laws, I may have some serious regrets![:(!]


    Could always get a lefthand sidelock.

    fc3cdbfd.gif

    When you wrestle a 'gator, there ain't no good end!!

    "Molon Labe!" Spartan General-King Leonidas
  • RhondaRhonda Member Posts: 183 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    cletus85, the inline usually gives a little better range and accuracy than the sidelocks, I personally prefer my flinters, my wife uses an inline. Both are legal for the muzzleloading season so,,,,,,,,,,,,,it works for both of us. Its interesting to see the bashing that goes on with this subject and we shooters have become so tunnel visioned with what we like we won't accept change. We shooters are the best friend the anti's have. We beat each other to death, bad mouth each other, while the anti's just keep chipping away. They just look for a contraversial suject, exploit it, and shortly they have another notch in their grip. Well off the soap box, cletus85, get the one you like the looks, feel, and price of. Then pratice, practice, practice. Enjoy the hunt.
  • cletus85cletus85 Member Posts: 2,104 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks for the input "Rhonda" I live in Mo as well. In fact I shoot my muzzleloader and other guns at Rudolf Bennitt. Too hot today though!
  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Rhonda
    cletus85, the inline usually gives a little better range and accuracy than the sidelocks, I personally prefer my flinters, my wife uses an inline. Both are legal for the muzzleloading season so,,,,,,,,,,,,,it works for both of us. Its interesting to see the bashing that goes on with this subject and we shooters have become so tunnel visioned with what we like we won't accept change. We shooters are the best friend the anti's have. We beat each other to death, bad mouth each other, while the anti's just keep chipping away. They just look for a contraversial suject, exploit it, and shortly they have another notch in their grip. Well off the soap box, cletus85, get the one you like the looks, feel, and price of. Then pratice, practice, practice. Enjoy the hunt.

    Sorry but I do not see bashing here,a few goodnatured jabs perhaps,but no bashing.This post is one of the tamest and good natured ones I've seen in a bit,I thought we were asked our opinion?Did I miss something again............L.H.
  • jjmitchell60jjmitchell60 Member Posts: 3,887
    edited November -1
    bambihunter, the in-lines that I feel are lesss sporting are those that take the pyrodex pellets with sabots on top. I have seen people kill deer with them at 150 yards with scopes. They put 4 or 5 pellets in then the sabot and they are getting some high muzzle velocities out of them, especially the ones with the fast twist rates. Each to their own but if it is a primitive season then we should use primitive firearms. I am at odds right now with the NMLRA over this very same matter. I refused to reup my membership due to the fact that when their magazine "Muzzle Blasts" came in it was nothing but in-line and cartridge BP gun articles. They think that us traditionalists have all died or not shooting at all! Like I said in my post I use flinters, smooth bore at that. I pride myself in getting the deer real close. A 50yd shot with a smooth bore flinter is a good shot so I want my deer within 50 feet! As to those that think we were bashing in-lines, this post was not a bashing post. I agree with Long Hunter when he stated it was one of the more tame posts that has been seen in a while. I will contiue to use flinters as will my kids. Those that want to use in-lines then so be it but some states are starting to put limits on what is concidered "primitive". Just my 2 cents worth.[8D]
  • TrinityScrimshawTrinityScrimshaw Member Posts: 9,350 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Just my opinion, but it's not really a muzzle loader if it does not have a side lock, and a wooden stock. NO SCOPES, or pellets for powder. Your powder horn should be a cow horn with Scrimshaw on it. Your possible bag should be made from something you killed, not a fanny pac with velcro snaps![}:)]

    Anything else is just a new fangled attempt to get more money from those who are just too lazy to do it the original smoke-pole way.[;)]

    Trinity +++

    "Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it."(Proverbs 22:6)
  • cletus85cletus85 Member Posts: 2,104 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If I may defend "Rhonda" for a second, I presumed that he meant bashing on this subject in general, not on this forum. Here in Missouri inlines and scopes are legal for "Muzzleloader" season and an inline is a Muzzleloader. Our Muzzleloader season comes after regular firearms season, and if there were a primitive season, that came before gun season, I'd give up my inline for that in a heartbeat. I guess someone who bowhunts with a long bow could say someone who uses a flintlock or sidelock is lazy and it shouldn't be allowed.
  • KX500KX500 Member Posts: 733 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I didn't buy my first muzzleloader because I was all that much into muzzleloading - I bought it because I wanted to be able to be afield hunting deer a few extras days a year. I'm sure I am not the only one.

    A fellow muzzleloader I hunted with said my scope was 'unfair'. Why, because it works better?

    Should we be glad that more people are shooting muzzleloaders or should we be sad (or mad about) natural progress & competion amongst gun makers?

    It seems like for practically anything you are interested in, there is some traditionalist group (recurve vrs. compound bows, inlines vrs. sidelocks, Harley vrs everything else, etc, etc).

    If you enjoy the traditional, have fun & do it. But don't act like any other way is wrong or 'less sporting'. A muzzleloader is primative because you only have one shot and reloading is relatively slow. Although, I suppose that double barrel sidelocks would still be considered 'sporting'......as long as you use black powder & a patched ball.
  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    andersk--where in Iowa were you? I'm on the western border. I just bought my first muzzleloader-- a T/C Omega .50. I plan on breaking her in real good over the 4-day Labor Day weekend. I can't wait.

    I think that a primitive season should involve the use of primitive weapons IF THE STATE YOU LIVE IN HAS A MODERN SEASON. However, I'm restricted to muzzleloader, shotgun and bow in Iowa. I can find a nice muzzleloader like my T/C and use it for shotgun and primitive seasons and don't feel the least bit guilty because there is no modern rifle season. Provide me with a modern rifle season and I'll get a side-lock.
  • cletus85cletus85 Member Posts: 2,104 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Exactly, KX500 that's why I bought my first Muzzleloader too. I see it like this, getting an inline to shoot accurately at anything beyond 50yds requires alot of practice. A few years back a guy at the gunshop I hang around was mad because here in Missouri they did away with choosing Muzzleloader or Modern tags. Now you can do both. Anyway his reasoning was "now every swinging di** in the state will be muzzleloader hunting. Well, it's been a while and that ain't been the case. Yea, you see the last minute guys buying them a day or two before season at Wal-mart and I smile and think "He won't be going next year" because most new muzzleloader hunters fail to realize that they HAVE to be cleaned. And contrary to what the advertisements would have you believe inlines are not that easy to get good accuracy from. Don't believe it, go to a public range and watch a few people attempt to sight them in. It usually ends in "good enough" as the call it, a 3-4 inch group at 50yds.
  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by TrinityScrimshaw
    Just my opinion, but it's not really a muzzle loader if it does not have a side lock, and a wooden stock. NO SCOPES, or pellets for powder. Your powder horn should be a cow horn with Scrimshaw on it. Your possible bag should be made from something you killed, not a fanny pac with velcro snaps![}:)]

    Anything else is just a new fangled attempt to get more money from those who are just too lazy to do it the original smoke-pole way.[;)]

    Trinity +++
    I heard that! Ya! [:D][:D]
    "Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it."<BR>(Proverbs 22:6)
  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    Originally posted by cletus85
    If I may defend "Rhonda" for a second, I presumed that he meant bashing on this subject in general, not on this forum. Here in Missouri inlines and scopes are legal for "Muzzleloader" season and an inline is a Muzzleloader. Our Muzzleloader season comes after regular firearms season, and if there were a primitive season, that came before gun season, I'd give up my inline for that in a heartbeat. I guess someone who bowhunts with a long bow could say someone who uses a flintlock or sidelock is lazy and it shouldn't be allowed.
    [/quote
    Well they are leagel here in Maine as well and our season comes after also.I still use a flint...makes it real sporting IMO,and I hunt with a bow as well...No one was really gettin on anyoneIMO,But lookin at the original question,Gee ya,I guess that I would say the inlines have the advantage,an unfair one at that given that I hunt with a flint in the same conditions that you do with an inline.However you do not hear me complaining,good-natured jabbing?Oh ya!Oh and JJ, you agreed with ME? Gee I am not used to that![;)][:D]
  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by cletus85
    [and watch a few people attempt to sight them in. It usually ends in "good enough" as the call it, a 3-4 inch group at 50yds.


    What?????? Geez I get that from an open sight flinter with patched round ball,they gotta do bettern that?[?]
  • cletus85cletus85 Member Posts: 2,104 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yes, they are capable of much better, but with proper loads, that most folks don't take the time to find. As for Flintlock reliabilty and accuracy I saw a guy at the range once with a custom, (his own) and it was a .58 cal. with a high quality barrel, and he made the 100yd water jug target dance like he had a centerfire. He was using roundballs, again he knew what he was doing. There wasn't no slow-fire either- instant ignition. I think any good muzzleloader hunter has to put in the time to get good accuracy. Generally the guys at the range I frequent who shoot sidelocks or flints are much better with them than the inline newbies, experience I spect.
  • RhondaRhonda Member Posts: 183 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    cletus85, thanks for the defend and you are correct, I was generalizing on the way "shooters" are to one another. I apologize if misunderstood. Friendly punches are always welcome as long as when the fight begins we gunowners are standing shoulder to shoulder. Hey, shooting just north of us if at Rudolph Bennett, we live just north of Harrisburg but either shoot in the back yard or Green Valley Rifle and Pistol Club south of Hallsvile. Luck with the smokepole. Enjoy those $7.00 antlerless tags. Guess we can shoot a 100 each if we can afford the powder. Keep your powder dry.
    Jim
  • bambihunterbambihunter Member Posts: 10,792 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sorry for the belated reply, I've been gone since last Tuesday.

    JJ
    "They put 4 or 5 pellets in then the sabot and they are getting some high muzzle velocities out of them, especially the ones with the fast twist rates"
    4 or 5 pellets - holy cow! Most inlines are rated at only 150 grains, I shoot my inline at 100 but my 32" sidelock at 120 grains.

    I think this issue will never be settled. For some people it is extra days afield, for others (like me) it is to be afield without all the idiots that fire high powered rifles at running deer and they don't stop until their guns are empty (had that happen 2 years ago and a tree within 50 feet of me was hit by a bullet). For some it is for the nostalgia of it, and for others yet it is to be able to be afield at a more desireable time of year (not everyone can just close shop and go hunting a particular day).
    This is just like bow season's. Some feel you should use long or recurves, while others like compounds with overdraws and carbon-fiber arrows. To each thier own I guess.

    cletus85, I don't know where you're at in MO, but if you're near the SW corner hollar at me and I'll bring my smokepoles over and let you try several types. I actually live in Oklahoma but frequent S.E. Kansas and S.W. Missouri (near Joplin)
    Fanatic collector of the 10mm auto.
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