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Beachmaster- In-theater combat pistol question

Matt45Matt45 Member Posts: 3,185
edited August 2003 in General Discussion
From the current 9MM VS. .45 thread-
quote: Many of the men who used the .45 in combat are passing... quote:...The highly modified Colt Gold Cup I carried in my shoulder holster in Somalia is the same one, in the same configuration, that I shot until very recently at Camp Perry. We each know what is best for ourselves......and I know all of those Marines in Mogadishu were envious of my .45 while they had to carry their "Italian Stallions".....Beach

Say Beach-
(And anyone else with this particular knowledge, Tiger-6 mebbe?)

Me and a few other "Joe's" were just theorizing how we were going to "local purchase" some adequate "close range support" in the event we found ourselves "in a land without 7-11".

Anybody you know do this, recently?? I know that up to about VietNam it wasn't all that uncommon for troops to pack along their own firearms, with the blessing of troop commanders, but it's been my expieriance that this may just land a fella in the pokey...especially trying to smuggle it there. But what about buying one from a local there on the ground, and using only FMJ ammo?

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Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands."
Guess what?
You have the wrong hands.
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  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Matt45
    I know that up to about VietNam it wasn't all that uncommon for troops to pack along their own firearms, with the blessing of troop commanders, but it's been my expieriance that this may just land a fella in the pokey...especially trying to smuggle it there.

    The Marine Corps did not "bless" the possession or use of non-issue weapons in Vietnam. We had a salty corporal show up in our platoon with a handlebar moustache and a S&W .357mag; the platoon sergeant (a crazy Navajo) quickly confiscated the .357 and literally ripped the moustache off the guy's lip.

    Occasionally, you'd see SOG types with weird-* stuff (Swedish K's, Thompsons, Browning High Powers, etc.) or Air Force guys with silly chrome .25 autos, but most units kept to their issued gear. I suspect that most of these non-standard weapons were carried more for affect (read: "Yeah, I'm cool") than anything else; if the Beretta 92 had been available in '66, you can bet some doofus would have stowed his perfectly good issue 1911A1 and carried the Beretta just to stand out from the herd.

    For what it's worth, my experience is that if it comes to close combat with handguns, the .45 vs 9mm debate will be the very least of your worries.
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  • beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    DWS's comments not withstanding(he must have had his toy taken away from him!) I found it was really up to the CO. Some skippers permitted personal weapons. In my case being a CO as well as being one of the few Navy guys actually on the beach there it was a no brainer. First the Navy had not adopted the M-92 so at a distance of greater than 15 feet its impossible to tell the difference between a tricked out bullseye weapon and a standard issue 1911(well maybe a guy with really good eyes could see the adjustable sights/trigger). He's also right in that certain units were permitted some leeway in weapons. We also had a couple of accurized Navy M1's that were brought not because they were "cool" but rather simply because of their accuracy and some guys felt more comfortable with that weapon for a long range shot. I almost opted to bringing a few M-79's because I thought that that obsolescent weapon had some merit after the First Persian Gulf Conflict. I was wrong on that account and my Platoon Commander was right. He had insisted on M-203 for his platoon and given the very urban nature of where we were the M-203(his choice) was a much better choice.
    I think that if you are truly an accomplished shootist most CO's would support adding your personal weapon to the unit armoury. If you were just a wannabe Rambo they probably wouldn't. In my case I had three All-Navy shooters including myself who were in the platoons that deployed. And in my view if you are good enough to shoot the All-Navy matches then you can bring your toy. Finally DWS has a point that if you do get down to pistol ranges most anything is going to work(although a superbly accurized .45ACP Colt 1911 that you've put 10,000 rounds through personally is just going to work a little bit better than a run of the mill M-92). We had a SeaBee Commander in the port facility in Mogadishu who insisted on never carrying a weapon because that wasn't his job(He encouraged his officers not to wear them either)...he had enlisted SeaBees to pull triggers. He may very well have been right that officers shouldn't be pulling triggers but that's not my philosophy.Beach
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  • beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Geez...I got off the topic. If you bring your own toy you had better bring plenty of your own ammo. I brought about 250 rounds of .45 ammo. We had a can(460 rounds)of Match 7.62 NATO and a couple of cans of ball ammo for the M1's. No I didn't plan on using that much ammo..I just wanted to have some extra on hand with which to practice. I wouldn't ever count on local procurement of weapons. My experience in Somalia is that the weapons we captured were in terrible shape I don't think the locals had any kind of thoughts on cleaning and maintaining their weapons. The barrels looked like sewer pipes; yes those weapons functioned but not with the accuracy with which they were initially endowed. Beach
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  • beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    DWS...the Swedish K is still the most reliable weapon ever for full function coming out of mud and full water emersion. Although I've heard that the U.S. grease gun was nearly as good. I'd say the opportunity to have 100% reliability outweighs "cool". Beach
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  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by beachmaster73
    DWS...the Swedish K is still the most reliable weapon ever for full function coming out of mud and full water emersion. Although I've heard that the U.S. grease gun was nearly as good. I'd say the opportunity to have 100% reliability outweighs "cool". Beach

    Beach: I know little of the Swedish K, even less about reasons for its preference over the XM177 by SOG personnel. I recall an Air Force FAC pilot at Dong Ha who carried one in his plane. He also carried matching chrome .25 autos in shoulder holsters and wore a bright yellow and black checkered scarf. He was a captain, so we didn't exactly laugh in his face, but we did think he paid more attention to the trappings of his profession on the ground than the performance of it in the air. One day he just never came back.
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  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    SP: I think the reluctance of commanders to allow use of personal weapons by subordinate personnel has more to do with the mind set accompanying such practice than the actual weapons themselves. At bottom, a military unit is just that--a unit. Personal selection in attire and accoutrement afforded a flamboyant general or SOG personnel way out on a limb is not typically extended to everyday grunts, and this for good reason; a line company is not an aggregate of individualists, and non-standard weaponry presents some very real problems regarding maintenance, supply and practical redundancy.
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  • beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    OK DWS...I'll give you chrome .25 autos as being way out on the bizarre side!!! Yellow scarves, yeah that sounds like a lot of affectation too. Your points about uniformity of weaponry have great validity when you are talking about line units in protracted conventional combat operations. I think though in some circumstances that looking at the mission rather than a unit's TOE has great validity as well. While I was not there I was told that when BMU-2(Atlantic Fleet bubbas) went into Haiti that the team that went in got rid of nearly all their M-60's and 203's and took Model 12 trench guns instead because of their more benign appearance in front of TV cameras. The Model 12 could still raise some close range havoc without upsetting the karma of the "do gooders" over there. From what I was told the team felt very comfortable with the Model 12's. In any case I know the USMC has always frowned on individuality over what the Corps thinks best. I'm not sure there is anything wrong with that.....but if I had a top notch IPC shooter working for me and he wanted to use one of his whizbang outfits I wouldn't have a problem with it and if I had some long range bubba and he wanted to bring his 1000 yard MacMillan Lapua I wouldn't have a problem with that either as long as I had the room for them to bring their toys. Beach
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  • drobsdrobs Member Posts: 22,620 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Saxon,

    General Officers decide for themselves concerning what they want to wear as there uniforms. Grunts don't have much choice.

    Matt & others,

    Was working at a shop last night & got in a conversation with the husband of Army NG MP, who is currently stationed in Iraq. He mentioned that his wife took 20 LE only brand new Berreta M9 mags with her to Iraq. I guess she'd heard of the problems with the M9's before going over. Maybe you want to invest in some. Not sure how she got them though.



    Regards,
    190191.gif
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    drobs--There are a few shady dealers out there. You just have to look for them. There is a local dealer who offered to sell me a post-ban LEO-only M-4 configured rifle (at LEO cost) if I would merely provide him proof that I was in the military. I declined.

    I can't take my Kimber on a deployment? I thought that I was an Army of One. Sorry....couldn't resist.
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  • Matt45Matt45 Member Posts: 3,185
    edited November -1
    Judging from the responses, a little more explanation is in order- The Army National Guard Table of Organization & Equipment (TO&E) for a Mechanized Infantry company provides 9mm's to the medic, the M-88 recovery vehicle crew, the company Master Gunner and the company Commander. No one else. That's what I have in my Arms Room, 7 Barretta's.

    Most grunts carry either an M-16A4 (Flattop) or one of two MG's, the 7.62NATO M-240B or the 5.56mm M-249 SAW. "Back in the day" M-60 gunners were at least authorized an M1911A1.

    As a grunt, if your weapon goes down, you either fix it or pick up the next guy to be rendered inoperative's weapon. In the case of a "meeting engagment", were two forces are colliding, many of us feel that we'ed rather fight with a K-Bar and a .38 revolver than "Fix Bayonets" or try to use "the black plastic club"(Which I hear did poorly in the Sandow tests.). This is the mindset that led to the discussion of how to fix this beyond agressivly modifying maintaince practices and procedures.

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    Reserving my Right to Arm Bears!!!!

    People
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    Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands."
    Guess what?
    You have the wrong hands.
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  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Matt: I caught your drift. I was only trying to allay your concern. Speaking only for myself, I think the scenario you present is near an impossibility, primarily because before it gets that bad it has to get worse; that if having a Gold Cup or Custom TLE would really make a difference, you wouldn't need it in the first place. Our M60 gunners did indeed carry 1911A1s--wrapped in plastic in flap holsters so they wouldn't get dirty. Sometimes they were "lost" or "stolen" and replaced with Salems and Jack Daniels, but they were NEVER used. I would put your trust in the Lord and your TO&E.
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  • Matt45Matt45 Member Posts: 3,185
    edited November -1
    DWS- I'm just trying to hedge all my bets. [;)]

    My intention is not to pack along or even "aquire" a Kimber or Gold Cup, just something to go bang when I really, really, really, really, really need it.

    Mebbe I'm a little too "Boy Scout", but I'd rather "have and not need than need and not have".

    fm_cr.jpgcomp45.gif

    Reserving my Right to Arm Bears!!!!

    People
    Eating
    Tasty
    Animals
    Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands."
    Guess what?
    You have the wrong hands.
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  • drobsdrobs Member Posts: 22,620 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Matt,

    What rank are ya? I forgot.

    Regards,
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