Randy Weaver's Shotgun Length?

booger

Settle a debate for me, if you can.

I thought the barrel length of the shotgun Randy "downsized" was actually 18 1/4 yet he ran afoul of the law because this reduced the overall length beyond legal limits.

True or False?

Them ducks is wary.

Henry0Reilly

I hadn't heard that. It does seem to make more sense that believing he cut the barrel itself too short.


Semper Fi

Remember Ruby Ridge.

Experience is the best teacher and usually charges accordingly.

BOBBYWINS

[?][?][?]
I must have missed something.
However,if the total length was less than 26",then yes, it would be illegal.So I guess I'm saying "True?".

BW

IT'S WHAT PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT THEMSELVES THAT MAKES THEM AFRAID.

Tailgunner1954

As I remember his "sawed off case" was thrown out because he offered to cut it to 18.25 for free (included in the $100 price of the gun), but the BATF agent offered 5K extra if he would cut it to 17.75" The judge considered that to be entrapment and tossed the case. Which is why the BATF was "out to get him" later, because he made them look like fools in the courtroom.

---

Some guys like a mag full of lead, I still prefer one round to the head.

bambihunter

quote:Originally posted by Tailgunner1954
As I remember his "sawed off case" was thrown out because he offered to cut it to 18.25 for free (included in the $100 price of the gun), but the BATF agent offered 5K extra if he would cut it to 17.75"


I dunno about you but if someone offered me 5k to do something like that I'd KNOW it was a sting. Everybody I know would just grab a hacksaw and do it themself...

TrinityScrimshaw

Tailgunner,

I do not think that is the way it went down. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I recall Randy didn't show up in Court the second time. The judge who tossed the case stated that he felt the entire case was trumped up, but that he was not going to stand for Randy failing to appear in his Court. The Judge then tossed out the original charge and had an arrest warrant drawn up for Randy. It all went down hill from there. Even Randy states now that if he would have only showed up in Court everything would have worked out, and his wife & son would still be alive today. Bottom line, I think I would have done the same thing Randy did. Having known I was set up to begin with I would have avoided the Court also.[V]

Trinity +++

"Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it."(Proverbs 22:6)

offeror

Stop me if I'm wrong, but didn't Randy barricade himself AFTER the surprise of the first shooting on his property? The circumstances of the shooting on both sides were unclear since it happened away from the house, but the cops had sneaked up and surrounded the place before shots were fired or Randy barred the door. The feds didn't even know for a while that he was holed up BECAUSE they had already shot one of his kin, who was dragged back and lay in a shack near the house.

As for the barrel length, I wonder if a Freedom of Information request regarding anything on the dimensions of the sawed off shotguns would produce the facts? There were two, maybe three at most as I recall.

T. Jefferson: "[When doing Constitutional interpretation], let us [go] back to the time when [it] was adopted. [Rather than] invent a meaning [let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."

NRA Life Member

bambihunter

Why has Ruby Ridge and Waco become almost iconic to pro-second amendment people (like ourselves)?

I see that the government over-stepped its boundry, and that there were guns/shooting involved, but how did it get to almost a mythical status that it seems to have?

(puzzled in Oklahoma)

offeror

Don't mistake MY feeling about it. I've never been very sympathetic in either case, but Weaver's botched situation is somewhat more interesting that Koresh's brainwashed cult. The only thing I said at the time of Waco is that Americans have a right to walk out of a situation like that. The FBI and BATF did an incredibly bad job there, and maybe even a criminal job. But that doesn't make the Koresh people any more symapathetic to me. I guess I consider the seige strategy separately from the issue of the nuts inside. Had they gotten out, and there were many innocent children killed, many would have straightened their heads out in time.

As for Weaver, it does appear the feds were looking for an informant for some of Randy's acquaintances, and by attempting to compromise Weaver they messed that one up bad too. You don't go to a citizen who has never cut a shotgun barrel and offer him $5 grand to cut down a couple by a quarter inch and not call that entrapment. They were obviously just wanting to offer to "get him off" of bogus charges in exchange for information. My amazement has mostly to do with how incompetent (and storm-trooper-like) the BATF and the FBI always seem to be when under any pressure at all. They certainly have no HRT or negotiating skills, and even less patience where citizens are boxed in. In both cases they literally threw the babies out with the bathwater. I think they acted stupidly and need a management overhaul and it's too bad they had to commit these botched jobs before we found that out. Regardless of the merits of the people inside. To me, it's a law enforcement problem with our own agencies (and they are ours), not a gun rights issue at all.

The one thing I can say about it is that in both cases, they attempted to justify all this misbehavior by trumping up a gun charge. Gun rights should not be an entryway to these tactics. If you bamboozle an armed citizen badly enough with misinformation I suppose you could get about anyone to protect himself. And then you have an excuse -- "a shot was fired at us." I would not like to see the BATF being used as the nail to set the screw. The "gun ploy" to get at citizens should be exposed so that it can't be successfully used in future.

T. Jefferson: "[When doing Constitutional interpretation], let us [go] back to the time when [it] was adopted. [Rather than] invent a meaning [let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."

NRA Life Member

temblor

Weaver didn't barricade himself in and start the siege until after they had killed his teenage son. How would you like it if you missed a court date( possibly because of good/unforseen circumstances)and they surrrounded your property unannounced and Killed your son?-- The Gov't was at fault in this tradgedy and it was proved in court with large cash settlements being paid to Weaver and his family. I doubt he could purchase a replacement Wife/Mother and son though...............[V][V][V][V][V][V][V]

Mercury

Also, on the paperwork that they sent to Weaver the first time, they had the wrong court date. I think they had the wrong month....

Merc



Insignia?

Nos nullus habitum rancidum insignia!



"Tolerating things you may not necessarily like is part of being free" - Larry Flynt

Rocklobster

What it boils down to is that the government doesn't like people who are making on their own, instead of working a job and giving them half their money.

TrinityScrimshaw

Looking back I can recall how upset I was when they finally got Randy and his family out of the house. They had all of his firearms laid out on a make shift table in his front yard, and they were calling it the arsenal of a white separatist's. Just like with the Waco incident Randy & his wife lived the way they did for religious reasons. Not because they wanted to be separate from other races. They wanted to raise their family alone without any influence from the outside. NO MTV; get it? And to top it off all the firearms they showed appeared to be all legal, and Randy clearly didn't own as many I did. You must also remember that this was all done while Bill Clinton was in office, and was trying to get the Brady Bill passed. Old Billy boy was hunting for weapons violations that could be used to put firearms ownership in a bad light.

Trinity +++



"Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it."(Proverbs 22:6)

Colt Super

Ruby Ridge and Waco were tragic examples of the government out of control.

God Bless America and...
NEVER Forget WACO
NEVER, EVER Forget 911

RugerNiner

quote:I think that once it became clear that it was the cops outside, he should have surrendered.

SaxonPig;
When they come for your Guns you will probably put a ribbon on them and gladly hand them over.


Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
http://www.awbansunset.com/

temblor

The Gov't should have put the women and kids first,not strong armed them and done better negotiating to prevent futher bloodshed. I don't think I would have talked to that motorized robot with the shotgun pointing at my door either...........[V][V][V][V][V]

steve45

I would advise you to read the book written by Randy Weavers lawyer about the stand off and shootings. The lawyer is firmly on the side of Randy Weaver. But even he cant explain some of Randy Weavers odd behavior. Everyone talks about entrapment. But I cant watch an episode of Cops on TV without seeing police officers appearing to sell dope to people, or police women acting like hookers and then arresting people and we all seem to be OK with that. Randy Weaver committed a crime. He then failed to appear in court. Then he armed his FAMILY and barricaded himself up behind them. The government made their usual idiotic errors. And then Randy stands alone screaming I'm a victim. The reason the government paid him off is because the shoot on sight orders that killed his wife are emotionally indefensible to a jury, not because shooting armed criminals resisting arrest is wrong. The reason why we gun people are so cranked about this I blame on the NRA. They put this up front and center as a this can happen to any one of us story month after month. It can only happen (so far) if you break the law and then bunker up behind your guns. At Waco Koreesh impregnated two girls under the age of 18 who then applied for welfare benefits and listed him as the father. That is against the law in Texas and that along with some other charges by a former member of the sect was what started Waco. Ruby Ridge and Waco are tragic examples of a government that has no clue about how to deal with ODD people in UNUSUAL situations.

temblor

I have read it and other accounts. Randy Weaver had not been convicted of anything so you can't say he committed a crime. He was suspected of committing a crime( if you call 1/4" or so of gun length that he was set up for a crime)and the last time I checked in this country you are innocent until proven guilty.The shoot on site orders weren't "emotionally" indefensible. They were morally indefensible and just plain wrong. --- An armed criminal resisting arrest is one thing -- But shooting a mother who had been charged with nothing holding a baby on a porch behind a door with a window in it with sniper optics is murder.And this after murdering their teenage son. They paid out that money because they were proven wrong in court and couldn't cover their tracks . PS= It's also not illegal to be odd or unusual in America.......................[V][V][V][V]

interstatepawnllc

quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
Ruby Ridge and Waco were tragic examples of the government out of control.

God Bless America and...
NEVER Forget WACO
NEVER, EVER Forget 911
Short and sweet. Nuff said!!


JC

Ted Kennedy's breath has killed more people than my car.

woodshermit

If Weaver had surrendered "once it became clear that it was the cops outside", those same "cops" who had already shot his son would have probably killed him and his family and covered it up in some way. Then we would not even be having this discussion. The only thing good that possibly came out of this and Waco is that law enforcement is now inclined to show a little more restraint.

HUNT WALKERS

I don't know what the length of the shotgun barrel was. But if you want to stop in sometime, I can take you too his favorite watering hole and you can ask him all the questions you want, he lives about 10 minutes away.

rcdis

Steve45

The ATF is not concerned about pregnant females, that is not their jurisdiction. Waco started because the ATF thought there were illegal firearms at the Branch Dividian farm. Actually Korech had invited the ATF to the farm just a few months before the attack to discuss the firearm question. Don't believe all the nonesense you heard about the Dividians during the seige. Most of that was FBI propaganda, apparently the Dividians were rather well thought of in the Waco area. Also in the trial of the Dividians who survived or surrendered and were charged with the murder of the ATF agaents all were aquited.

rcdis

CWatson

Both Koresh and Weaver seemed a little nutty to me,but that is not illegal.How many Dems think any of you are nutts for wanting to own a gun? By the way I will mention it since it has not been brought up.Weaver's son had been shot in the back.CW


1.KILL EM' ALL AND LET ALLAH SORT EM' OUT!

2.NEVER WASTE MONEY ON SPRINGFIELD ARMORY!!

muggster

Weaver was sent a letter stating that the court date was to be February the 20th 1990 when in fact it had been changed to March 20th 1990.Weaver then sent a copy of the document to the media stating the Feb court date.The media confronted the U.S Marshals' office in Boise.The Marshals' office lied and denied it happened.Then all hell broke loose.


Muggster