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Unusual firearms of the west.

powdersmokepowdersmoke Member Posts: 3,241
edited June 2005 in General Discussion
Tho' the Colt and Remington were given much of the credit for opening up the west many firearms went west with the early pioneers, especially in the period after the War between the States.

These photos are examples from one company that provided some of those firearms. The first picture more than the second.

The second photo is an unusual example of their design that almost made it but was pushed out by the semi autos.

What is it? Who manufactured it?

w1.jpg

W2.jpg

"There are two freedoms-the false where people do as they like and the true where people do as they ought."

Taking care of our responsibilities helps garantee our freedoms

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    hughbetchahughbetcha Member Posts: 7,801 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Look like Webley revolvers. Top one with short barrell looks like Webley RIC(Royal Irish Constabulary) Powerful little bugger in .455, it was the Charter Arms BullDog of its day.

    Longer barrell on the bottom looks like Webley Mk1 or something to that effect.
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    PearywPearyw Member Posts: 3,699
    edited November -1
    It appears to be a Webley-Fosberry semi-auto revolver made in England.
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    hughbetchahughbetcha Member Posts: 7,801 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Looking closer at gun on bottom i think it one of the Webley self-cocking verisons.Maybe Webley Fosberry?
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    Bill CostikBill Costik Member Posts: 1,845 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Both appear to be Webley revolvers. The bottom picture is, I believe, a Webley Fosbery.
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    BOBBYWINSBOBBYWINS Member Posts: 7,810
    edited November -1
    My thoughts exactly.

    [^][^]
    BW

    IT'S WHAT PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT THEMSELVES THAT MAKES THEM AFRAID.
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    forthhorsemanforthhorseman Member Posts: 656 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm sorry, but I have to take issue with your assertion that these are "unusual firearms of the west". First, those are both Webleys which are not at all unusual and second, neither of them is really from the period commonly called the "old west". Certainly neither of these examples ever "went west with the early pioneers". The top one is a Webley Mk I .455 which was first produced in 1887 and so while it could be the closest of the two to possibly qualify as an "old west" firearm, it's doubtful it saw much "old west" action. The Mk I was hardly unusual as far as the British and many others around the world are concerned. The bottom one is a little more on the unusual side and IS indeed a Webley-Fosbery "auto-matic" revolver. The top part of the frame, along with the barrel and cylinder moved rearwards with each shot from the recoil, cocking the hammer. They date from the early 20th century, just prior to WWI, not the 19th century and therefore cannot be considered a "firearm of the west".
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    hughbetchahughbetcha Member Posts: 7,801 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by forthhorseman
    I'm sorry, but I have to take issue with your assertion that these are "unusual firearms of the west". First, those are both Webleys which are not at all unusual and second, neither of them is really from the period commonly called the "old west". Certainly neither of these examples ever "went west with the early pioneers". The top one is a Webley Mk I .455 which was first produced in 1887 and so while it could be the closest of the two to possibly qualify as an "old west" firearm, it's doubtful it saw much "old west" action. The Mk I was hardly unusual as far as the British and many others around the world are concerned. The bottom one is a little more on the unusual side and IS indeed a Webley-Fosbery "auto-matic" revolver. The top part of the frame, along with the barrel and cylinder moved rearwards with each shot from the recoil, cocking the hammer. They date from the early 20th century, just prior to WWI, not the 19th century and therefore cannot be considered a "firearm of the west".


    Horseman,

    Is an RIC model just a Mk1 with a shorter barrel?
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    Gibbs505Gibbs505 Member Posts: 3,175
    edited November -1
    Good call horseman!

    If I can't spell, so what!

    Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
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    forthhorsemanforthhorseman Member Posts: 656 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    hughbetcha: No, the 1870s Webley RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary) revolver, was not a top break like the Mk I. The RIC was a solid frame side loader that loaded and ejected via a channel on the right side of the frame the same way the Colt SAA did (does). The Mk I pictured is a top break revolver that was not produced until 1887 and after.
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    powdersmokepowdersmoke Member Posts: 3,241
    edited November -1
    Ah! The difference is in definition.[:)] Yes they are guns of the "old" west (at least the top model shown), if we accept 'my' definition that the old west period went from sometime prior to the War between the States up until the 1890's. My question, therefore my definition.[}:)] Top model is an 1884 model, which it is true was made up until the time of WWI if I am correct. The bottom does not fit that description exclusively but was made prior to the turn of the century (just shown because it is unusual), correct me with facts if I'm wrong and I will repent in sack-cloth and ashes.[:I][:(][:o)][;)][8] Many different firearms went west with the migration, so these do qualify.[^]

    Yes they are Webley & Scott revovlers.

    "There are two freedoms-the false where people do as they like and the true where people do as they ought."

    Taking care of our responsibilities helps garantee our freedoms
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    hughbetchahughbetcha Member Posts: 7,801 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What I know about the Webley RIC is that is was the preferred assassination weapon and all around favorite handcannon of the Irish Republican Army.

    My grandfather was born in Ireland in 1900 and was a 'soldier" at 16 years old in the IRA under Michael Collins. My grandfather actually had to flee Ireland in 1921 because of his association with Collins. He went to the US and joined the US Navy until he returned to Ireland in 1928.

    In the few adult conversations I had with my grandfather about his days fighting for the IRA and during the Irish Civil War he mentioned the Webley RIC fondly. I've always wanted to get one but never got around to seriously looking for one.
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    forthhorsemanforthhorseman Member Posts: 656 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    powdersmoke: 1884 for the Mk I? I'm having trouble believing that. I've seen 1887 as the earliest reference date for the Mk I but I've also seen 1894 for it as well but most of the references I can find say 1887. Also, the US census bureau claimed the western frontier closed in 1890, so even if the Mk I was introduced in 1887, it would just barely make the cut off. The Fosbery certainly wouldn't. Now if as hughbetcha mentioned, you want to talk about the Webley RIC revolver, then I'd say that's a gun that qualifies as "old west". Afterall, they say Custer carried the RIC at the Battle of the Little Bighorn. In any case, the claim of "unusual" does not in my opinion fit any Webley. They were produced in numbers rivaling Colt and Smith & Wesson and certainly more Webleys were produced than Remington's 1875 Army or 1890 Police revolvers.

    hughbetcha: Custer apparently thought enough of the RIC to carry it at the Battle of the Little Bighorn. Obviously it didn't help him too much but I'd bet he took a few "hostiles" with him before he fell. People have said it was the British equivalent of the Colt SAA. Simple, powerful and nearly impossible to break. They were very well regarded the world over, so I can certainly understand your grandfather's fondness for the RIC.
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    powdersmokepowdersmoke Member Posts: 3,241
    edited November -1
    I repent in sackcloth and ashes.

    I got the top one wrong as it was a model 1894 I was thinking model 1884

    Top oneWebley .455 caliber MK. II (Mark 2, 1894)

    Bottom one:

    SPECIFICATIONS
    Type: Automatic Revolver
    System of Operation: Recoil
    Caliber: .455 Webley and .38 ACP
    Capacity: .455: 6 rounds, .38: 8 rounds
    Sights front: Blade
    Sights, rear: U-notch
    Length: 11"
    Weight (unloaded): 2.73 lbs
    Barrel: 6" (.455 Service Pattern)

    The early 20th Century was a time of rapid advancement in firearms development in general and with respect to self loading pistol design in particularly. Despite the number of new self loading designs that simply didn't work, it was evident that the revolver's primacy as a service arm was rapidly drawing to a close. Aiming to compete with the self-loader, Colonel G. Vincent Fosbery, V.C., adapted the Webley service revolver to an automatically indexing and cocking configuration. On August 16, 1895 Fosbery took out a patent for a recoil operated self cocking and indexing revolver. A prototype was constructed using a Colt Single Action Army revolver modified such that the barrel, cylinder, and action slid back and forth on the frame. Improvements to the design led to additional patents being granted in June and October 1896.

    "There are two freedoms-the false where people do as they like and the true where people do as they ought."

    Taking care of our responsibilities helps garantee our freedoms
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    forthhorsemanforthhorseman Member Posts: 656 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    All is forgiven [;)]
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    powdersmokepowdersmoke Member Posts: 3,241
    edited November -1
    Interesting side points;

    A quote from "Guns of the Old West" magazine.

    "....Webley & Scott's British Bulldog revolver was hugely popular on our side of the pond. This was a compact .45 caliber, solid frame double-action revolver that loaded through a gated loading port on the right side of the frame. It was both concealable and powerful......"

    Billy The Kid was shot by Pat Garret in 1880.
    Jesse James was murdered by Ford in 1882.
    John Wesley Hardin was gunned down in 1895.
    Pancho Villa Raided Colombus, NM in 1916 met a violent end in 1923.

    I've heard tell other desperadoes were also still in action between 1900 and 1910.

    Do you know of others?

    "There are two freedoms-the false where people do as they like and the true where people do as they ought."

    Taking care of our responsibilities helps garantee our freedoms
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    hughbetchahughbetcha Member Posts: 7,801 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by powdersmoke
    Interesting side points;

    A quote from "Guns of the Old West" magazine.

    "....Webley & Scott's British Bulldog revolver was hugely popular on our side of the pond. This was a compact .45 caliber, solid frame double-action revolver that loaded through a gated loading port on the right side of the frame. It was both concealable and powerful......"

    Billy The Kid was shot by Pat Garret in 1880.
    Jesse James was murdered by Ford in 1882.
    John Wesley Hardin was gunned down in 1895.
    Pancho Villa Raided Colombus, NM in 1916 met a violent end in 1923.

    I've heard tell other desperadoes were also still in action between 1900 and 1910.

    Do you know of others?

    "There are two freedoms-the false where people do as they like and the true where people do as they ought."

    Taking care of our responsibilities helps garantee our freedoms



    Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid(also the Wild Bunch) active around 1900.
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    powdersmokepowdersmoke Member Posts: 3,241
    edited November -1
    Clay Allison, died from injuries from a wagon that roll/fell on him in 1887.

    "There are two freedoms-the false where people do as they like and the true where people do as they ought."

    Taking care of our responsibilities helps garantee our freedoms
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