touchy feely input needed on owning a war relic

bobski

just curious...knowing that ww1 & ww2 german & japaneese firearms were created to kill the enemy, namely us, (the good guys,) how do you collectors and enthusiasts feel about holding, shooting, and knowing odds are those guns you own were aimed at your family members (or maybe you,) during the big wars and most likely killed some of them? i mean serious, give me some fair and honest input please. this thought crosses my mind every time i shoulder an M1 garand or carbine and i wonder how many bad guys dropped at the pull of its trigger before i held it. so, it must cross yours when you shoot that mauser or luger? follow me? thanks in advance.

former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction.

njretcop

I own and shoot M1 Garands; SKS's; Mauser K98's; and Japanese Arisaka's.

To me, they are tools to shoot bullets at a target. I personally never get involved with where they were before they found their way into my safe.

What you say is very possible, I suppose. They could have been pointed at, or used to kill or wound American soldiers.....but I was not firing them at the time!

As long as they remain in my custody, they will never kill or wound another American, or anyone else...........but bottles, cans and paper targets, look out, LOL.





Charlie

"It's the stuff dreams are made of Angel"NRA Certified Firearms InstructorMember: GOA, RKBA, NJSPBA, NJ area rep for the 2ndAMPD. njretcop@copmail.com

elect1mike

I have collected and shot a boat load of mausers not once did I care that my two uncles were over there when these same guns could have been aimed at them. THERE JUST GUNS. I guess it would be like owning billy the kids hand gun he shot guys with its sad but I sure would not miss the joy of owning it.

col elect1mike Illinois
volinters RRG
I am a man but I can change if I have to,I guess.

Iconoclast

bobski, this is a moving and insightful question; one of the best philosophical concepts I've seen raised in this or any other venue. Thank you for sharing it.

I would have to reply - strictly for myself - that many of those in circulation came home as trophies, personal reminders of courage and sacrifice, but regardless of when or how they came to this country, I must regard them as symbolic of the acts of OUR military service people . . . for if it had not been for those who stepped forward to defend us, these would not be in circulation at all.

Unquestionably, I will never see another German or Japanese weapon again in the same light. Thank you again for such a probing thread.

"There is nothing lower than the human race - except the French." (Mark Twain)

trstone

I've seen this sort of issue brought up before, and personally, speaking for myself, I can say that I have no problem whatsoever owning such firearms. I have a very nice German-made 98K Mauser that was refurbished in Yugoslavia (NOT a Yugo 48, I'd like to make clear) that I scoped. I'm delighted with it, and it doesn't bother me that it was used in warfare to shoot at another American at one time in the dim past, because I look at firearms for what they are: esthetically pleasing sporting devices which COULD have been used by the owner for other purposes, such as personal defense or even warfare (which is simply defense of one's country, regardless of the motives of the government who sends you off to war.) I look at a sturdy, well-made Mauser rifle, and all I see is a well-crafted firearm, NOT a tool of Nazi aggression, because I have this habit of looking at firearms without considering who used them, or what their specific intent may have been. It ain't the gun's fault if it was used to shoot people, and besides, even if it WAS used to shoot people by a former owner, it's MINE now, and I'm going to use it for more constructive purposes---the esthetic pleasure of target-shooting, in my case.

Anyhow, that's how I view that whole "gun's evil history" issue, especially in regard to old military firearms.

bobski

keep going. all good so far, only slight rudder adjustment id make is regardless of what they are used for now, the topic is how do you deal with what they were 'then' as you collect and enjoy today. i mean seriously, i can assure you i dont pull out my p-38 to talk about it over coffee when my jewish friends come over to visit, if you know what i mean. but i can assure you the garand is out on the wall when my asian friends call. my point is, the gun unfired can send messages just for being the gun from that era. thus having one can imeadiatley send a message when seen. im curious what message it send you when you stop and think of it more in depth. case in point, my friend was willed a 1911a1. it was the very gun that killed his brother in a suicide. he than modified it to shoot 45 match and it didnt phase him. sorry, i couldnt have own it. i would have sold it. so, continue and lets see some more responses. thanks!

bigtire

The only war era weapon I have that really makes me think that way is the P.38 that I inherited from my father. As a PFC in the 101st Airborne, he picked it up off a German soldier that he shot in WWII. It has great sentemental value to me, and I think of him whenever I look at it. I have not shot it since my father passed away. As a memorial to him it is now mounted in a shadow box with some of his medals and pictures of him during WWII.

The original point and click interface was a Smith and Wesson.

oldgunner

I believe someone's signature answers it very well.."Guns don't kill people, people kill people." To look at it any other way is drifting toward the anti gun side, don't you think? It's a tool, nothing more. How it has been used in the past is not your fault, and shouldn't be your problem.

There are no bad guns, only bad people.

gruntled

I think a deeper question would be what to do with a war relic that could be traced to a paricular person? Should an attempt be made to return personal items possibly including sidearms to their families?

v35

I had that feeling as a kid when these trophies were coming home during and after the war. Store owners put displays up in their windows including guns, flags , uniforms and memorabilia. It wore off after a few years. Today Vietnam vets may still carry those feelings. It's too close to that time. I believe for many Jews, they will never let go of it.
A few weeks ago someone showed me an MG08/15 captured by his uncle in WW1. The gun had killed 200 Doughboys before the MG crew was grenaded
into the next world. The place,time,units and people involved and a short statement on circumstances involved were hand painted on the barrel jacket in yellowing white paint. I handled the gun and, yes the statement personalized it. It was no longer a tool but that instrument of death for 200 young Americans.
The owner had no knowledge he was committing a serious crime in owning
it and seemed unconvinced when I told him so. It would be a shame to
confiscate this meaningful trophy, though it might be better off in an Army museum.

woodshermit

Personally, war relics aren't for me. I have nothing beyond a marginal interest in militaria, even though I enjoy reading about military history. One could say the same thing about the clothes on one's back or the shoe's on one's feet re:exploitation, child labor, slave wages, etc. I know people who aren't interested in my little Winchester collection, so I don't bring that piece of my life out when they're around.

bobski

except pointing ones shoes or levi jeans at someone, doesnt kill them. btw...im not anti gun. geesh! i own a gun mfging business!

HappyNanoq

Wether a gun have been used on either side - to kill the good guys or bad guys.. doesn't matter at all for me.. it's just a weapon, piece of metal.

Sure it would be fun to own the gun that supposedly killed JFK, Elvis' pistol, the pistol that Hitler might have killed himself with in the bunker - to me it would be nothing more than a weapon with a story.


Having inherited a gun of some sort is different.
I've inherited an old Krag from my father, he inherited it from a hunter in my mothers family in the late '60s when he worked here - he brought it from Greenland to Denmark in '72 and had it ever since, not for the use of it, but because he inherited it - it just had to be there.

The Krag is the danish built rifle, cal. 8mm*58RD or 8mm-'1889, you know the history of the Krag-Jorgensen rifles.

It's "nothing" more than a rifle to me - yes, maybe a little more than just a rifle, because it was my fathers rifle.
I have no use for it - it has to be here, that's all.

It's a tool of remembering both him and my mother - as well as my mothers side of our family.

And it can shoot..


Don't do anything that I've allready done - That'd be just plain STOOOOOOPID.

kuhlewulf

I never used to think about it when I first started to buy military weapons. That ended for me when I started buying SKS-56's for 39.95 a piece back it the early 90's. They were labeled as "battlefield recoveries" and we just thought that was great. Genuine Vietnam era battle weapons. Really cool till I found two particular weapons. The first had a splintered hole in the stock that I dug a 5.56mm slug out of. The second I found later on had notches cut into the stock. My father was in Vietnam and lost many friends there, and I knew many vets. The realization of what I held hit me hard and changed my views forever. I treat any veteran weapon with respect out of deference to the brave men of whatever army that used it. Yes, guns are just tools, but they often carry with them the essence of the poeple who used them. We respect war veterans right? The guns are no different in my book.

James

Whats next? A ban on automatic transmissions?

allen griggs

I like the historical record that goes with a military weapon.
I have some Finnish rifles. I love to think of these weapons, strapped to the back of a Finnish ski troop as he bravely went out to defend his nation's liberty from the Russian invaders.
It would not bother me to have a German Mauser that was used to fight the allies, or that was used against Russia. In fact I would like to have the name of the soldier who had it, and find out in just what battles it was used. I have several books written by German soldiers, and they were no more evil killers than our own troops in Iraq are. They were young guys with jobs and families, and their government told them to go to war, and they went.
By the same token, if I ran across a pistol that was used to kill Jews at Auschwitz, no way I would buy that gun. Bad vibes.

mohawk600

Doesn't have any bearing on whether or not I'd own it........it's history which I respect and recognize but I wasn't pulling the trigger.......here is another twist on the question......

would you guys ever own or accept a gun that you knew someone committed suicide with?

BigBubba

quote:Originally posted by kuhlewulf
I never used to think about it when I first started to buy military weapons. That ended for me when I started buying SKS-56's for 39.95 a piece back it the early 90's. They were labeled as "battlefield recoveries" and we just thought that was great. Genuine Vietnam era battle weapons. Really cool till I found two particular weapons. The first had a splintered hole in the stock that I dug a 5.56mm slug out of. The second I found later on had notches cut into the stock. My father was in Vietnam and lost many friends there, and I knew many vets. The realization of what I held hit me hard and changed my views forever. I treat any veteran weapon with respect out of deference to the brave men of whatever army that used it. Yes, guns are just tools, but they often carry with them the essence of the poeple who used them. We respect war veterans right? The guns are no different in my book.

James


Interesting. To me, digging that 5.56mm slug out would have been very unnerving, same with the notches. I have no problems with owning German/Japanese WWII or Combloc Vietnam era weapons; I know that as long as they are in my ownership, they won't be used to shoot American soldiers. I too believe that they deserve respect as a part of history and especially as a way to teach the next generation(s) about our heritage and the terrible sacrifices made for our freedom.

"Sure, you can trust the government. Just ask an American Indian."
-Bumper sticker

The pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword is more fun.

"Keep your eyes open, do your own thinking, and be your own man."
-Marshal Matt Dillon

Varmintmist

You have to remember, since this is the US, your grandad may have used the 98 in battle.

Mine didnt, but one of the kids I grew up with had a bayonet from a 98, from his grandfather. It wasnt a war trophy, it was issued.

I have a few US dating from 1919 and up, no it doesnt bother me.

Those people who see nothing but grey areas, no black and white, are lost in the fog.

mudge

Owning any weapon regardless of it's history, doesn't bother me in the least.
What bothers me is the almost religious adoration of Nazi uniforms and accouterments. I'm sure there are those on the board that collect that sh--,...uh...cr--,...uh...stuff.
Just seeing it irritates the he-- outta' me.
Guess it comes from growing up during WWII and having my favorite uncle killed during the Battle of the Bulge.
Somehow, Japanese stuff doesn't effect me that way. Probably because the only time you see it is in museums, not being worn by someone.

Mudge the irritable

I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS!

interstatepawnllc

I have receive mil-surp firearms with "notches" cut in them and we all know what that means. No problem though, I just "dekarmanize" them when giving them their cursory cleaning.[:D]


JC

Ted Kennedy's breath has killed more people than my car.

bobski

i think some of you should see the parallel. those nazi uniforms mentioned above were worn by people that killed some good people. so see, its not the actual uniform that has personality, its the ghost of the item that does. same like a war relic. the gun itself isnt bad, but when you start to focus on the actual space in which you now are sharing with it in perspective to where it was 1/2 a century ago, it does something to you. case in point, a poster posted about owning a gun from a suicide, and as i posted before him on my friends gun, i couldnt own it. this thread also goes to prove a very important part of gun collecting and ownership...when you inherit the gun you inherit the history too, whether you know it or not. just look at civil war sites all thruout usa. as you stand behind say an old cannon, and look down the sights, you cant help 'feeling' what it must have been like to the soldier who fired it. afterall, its why we have these civil war sites preserved. you can almost hear the battle cries when you stand there. and too, when you own a gun, if you arent thinking about where it may have been, you arent being responsible. guns demand a certain respect. yes, they are cold metal, and the hands that made them may very well be dead, but try to realize that your eye is looking in the same sight as someone else did 50 or 60 years ago, and you should get gooze bumps of respect or humility when you do and when you shoot it. personally, i feel people that give guns personalities are weird. but you cant avoid the fact that holding a gun that was used in a war doesnt do something to you inside. stand on the deck of the uss constitution and you get the same feeling. ive owned 3 03's, 6 garands, and countless milspec 45's in my life and they are the only type guns i get this feeling with when i shoot them. i dont appear to be the only one that feels this and who recogonizes it. i hope more will. we republicans are sensible people. democrates are touchy feely people. its for these reasons they support military gun destruction programs. to know the enemy is to beat the enemy. allow this thread to give you insight on how to answer one on this topic if it ever comes up, and then i can go to sleep knowing i helped the gun cause. keep going! im getting some good input from all of you. thanks.

v35

I have a Civil War Cavalry saber with four small notches in the butt rim and several black rusted spots. The seller claimed her relative used it on San Juan Hill. I've wondered if the notches were I.D. markings or tally marks of victims run through by the blade.
Were they Confederates, Indians or Spaniards?
Could blood have been deliberately left on the blade to rust it as a mark of conquest?
Bayonet and sword fighting must have been a desperate, gruesome business.

p3skyking

It has occured to me on occasion. The 'maybe' part really is just a mind game to me. Without knowing the history of a military weapon, it could have just as easily stood guard at a library. Most of my WWI weapons have regimental markings which can be traced to battles and time periods, but that was a few lifetimes ago.

WWII weapons are harder to pin down to a specific duty. Who knows? I can only vouch for what it is and where it is NOW. I have no heartburn about it.

I have a pistol that a family member committed suicide with. It's just a pistol and it has no ghost. Wouldn't think of getting rid of it. Very few objects have Karma. Steel isn't one of them. Wood maybe, but if it has, it isn't much.

The items retain no supernatural energy and are only reminders of mans conflicts with himself.

posh

The winners have always taken the losers weapons. What would cause me concern would be one of our former enemys with one of our weapons.

njretcop

I also own a revolver that was used by a friend of mine to commit suicide. His widow gave it to me.

That was nearly 30 years ago. I don't know why I have held onto it, but I did.....

I shoot it occasionaly, it looks just like it did the day she handed it to me, just another revolver in the safe. After all, the gun did not commit the suicide, the owner did!





Charlie

"It's the stuff dreams are made of Angel"NRA Certified Firearms InstructorMember: GOA, RKBA, NJSPBA, NJ area rep for the 2ndAMPD. njretcop@copmail.com

kuhlewulf

This may seem corny but I wrote this a while back in one of my reflective moods. I believe it may apply here.

Alas, has peace fallen on the field of battle? Just as night sets upon the once brilliant landscape of the world robbing the beauty of all its vibrant colors, the stillness of peace now rules over the frozen glory of the battle. The heroism and cowardice woven so voilently into a tapestry of blood and gore left for all who survive to carry forever in their minds. A blanket of memories to wrap themselves in during the small dark hours of the night that will give no warmth. Has the battle ended? Never! For the battle will always rage in the hearts of those who fought it and their hands will always feel the weight of their weapons. There is only one truth to war: No one wins when the sons of both sides die.


James

Whats next? A ban on automatic transmissions?

njretcop

James my boy,

I'm proud of ya. You wrote that? It is not corny, it is very good!





Charlie

"It's the stuff dreams are made of Angel"NRA Certified Firearms InstructorMember: GOA, RKBA, NJSPBA, NJ area rep for the 2ndAMPD. njretcop@copmail.com

s.gun

GUNS DON"T KILL PEOPLE

PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE





1-Powder

2-Patch

3-Ball

4-Remove the Rod

5-Do Not Forget the Cap.

stanman

Bobski,
This sounds like the ol' "guns evil, guns bad" mindset that plagues defenders of the 2nd ammendment.
Sorry, I won't buy into it!
Actually, I prefer to believe that my Mausers and Springfields have been blooded on the field of battle.
If they haven't, they aren't really war relics,,,,,are they?

JMHO



The Bush administration sends tens of thousands of American military to protect the sovereignty of nations around the world, while trading our own sovereignty for hispanic votes!

Night Stalker

Bobski,

I've got an 1854 TOWER Rifle, which I brought home with me from Afghanistan. I sent the digital pics on to this forum, specifically the "ask the professionals" section and was told it originally belonged to the British Military. It is great condition, sans some wear on the brass sing points, but all in all a fine old "three-ringer".

Hard telling how many folks have fallen from this rifle, but I suspect it has felled more than one man during its day. I own it now, will proudly display it over my fireplace hearth someday, and will think noting of those who have been on the receiving end. I really do not think it matters... but that's JMHO.

NSDQ!

"Many free countries have lost their liberty, and ours may lose hers; but if she shall, be it my proudest plume, not that I was the last to desert; but that I never deserted her." -President Abraham Lincoln

bigdaddyjunior

The history of a certain class of firearm is the whole reason for collecting these type guns. The fact that a soldier relied on a weapon to protect his life or to take the enemy's life in battle makes it more historically relevant thus more desirable. I can't even pick up a 1911 style pistol without thinking of what Browning did for this country"s fighting men or what those men did with the tools Browning gave them. Who can look at an AK and an AR15 side by side in their safe and not think of the times these guns have armed opposing sides in a conflict? Put an M1 next to a Mauser and it becomes apparent that Germany didn't have a chance once we tooled up and decided to fight. Maybe because I'm a history buff, but the tools of war mean a lot more to me as a collector than any other type guns.

Big Daddy my heros have always been cowboys,they still are it seems

bobski

another rudder adjustment....remember, its how you feel owning a gun that was pointed at your fathers that im aiming for. when i hold my american guns that fought bad guys its a different feeling. but to own a gun that was pointed towards us is the threads request. thanks. the 'guns dont kill people' line is a bit too washed and doesnt give any deep insight. im not asking for you to defend guns, i like guns too. im going for the emotion of owning a known weapon against your families...like walking thru a german sub tour or touring atchwitz. thanks.

k98k792

I have Mausers and Arisakas.I say to the victor belongs the spoils.We have these weapons because our fathers killed the enemy and took them. Considering who and what the enemy were,I feel pretty damn good about owning these weapons.

Gibbs505

I have often wondered about the history of a militry firearm. Who held it? was it used in battle or did it ever get away from guard duty? Otherwie it didn't bither me. Just courious.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

PATBUZZARD

Regardless of who they were pointed at. It seems very fitting to me to retire some of these old battle rifles to my collection. Regardless of whose side they were on, they were used by soldiers, (not unlike myself) to defend their country. My grandfather fought the Nazis, but I remember him saying on a number of times that although he hated the Nazis he did have a great deal of respect for them as soldiers. They did their duty, as did their weapons. I personally feel no bad emotions about owning battle rifles from former (or current) enemy nations. They are a piece of not so distant history. We do well to save them from the scrap heap, and keep them in a place of honor in our collections. Because or ancestors sacrificed, we have the right to own these fine weapons. In many cases their original owners (Germans, Japanese, Russians, ENGLISH) aren't even allowed to still own them. To me that's a rather sober reminder of why I must remain vigilant to all attacks on the second ammendment. Ok rant ended.

Patrick Buzzard
Michigan National Guard
19K-- tanker
"Strike Hard!!"

PATBUZZARD

Regardless of who they were pointed at. It seems very fitting to me to retire some of these old battle rifles to my collection. Regardless of whose side they were on, they were used by soldiers, (not unlike myself) to defend their country. My grandfather fought the Nazis, but I remember him saying on a number of times that although he hated the Nazis he did have a great deal of respect for them as soldiers. They did their duty, as did their weapons. I personally feel no bad emotions about owning battle rifles from former (or current) enemy nations. They are a piece of not so distant history. We do well to save them from the scrap heap, and keep them in a place of honor in our collections. Because or ancestors sacrificed, we have the right to own these fine weapons. In many cases their original owners (Germans, Japanese, Russians, ENGLISH) aren't even allowed to still own them. To me that's a rather sober reminder of why I must remain vigilant to all attacks on the second ammendment. Ok rant ended.

Patrick Buzzard
Michigan National Guard
19K-- tanker
"Strike Hard!!"

PATBUZZARD

Regardless of who they were pointed at. It seems very fitting to me to retire some of these old battle rifles to my collection. Regardless of whose side they were on, they were used by soldiers, (not unlike myself) to defend their country. My grandfather fought the Nazis, but I remember him saying on a number of times that although he hated the Nazis he did have a great deal of respect for them as soldiers. They did their duty, as did their weapons. I personally feel no bad emotions about owning battle rifles from former (or current) enemy nations. They are a piece of not so distant history. We do well to save them from the scrap heap, and keep them in a place of honor in our collections. Because or ancestors sacrificed, we have the right to own these fine weapons. In many cases their original owners (Germans, Japanese, Russians, ENGLISH) aren't even allowed to still own them. To me that's a rather sober reminder of why I must remain vigilant to all attacks on the second ammendment. Ok rant ended. <<steps off of soapbox>>

Patrick Buzzard
Michigan National Guard
19K-- tanker
"Strike Hard!!"