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What if you found a Thompson.......

RembrandtRembrandt Member Posts: 4,486 ✭✭
edited August 2003 in General Discussion
Pure hypothetical senario....let's say you buy an old house at an estate sale, the same family owned it for more than 90 years. While doing renovations you discover a Thompson sub machine gun in a violin case hidden in a crawl space...[:D]...now what do you do?

Comments

  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would trade the violin case for a fedora and a pair of spats.
  • rldowns3rldowns3 Member Posts: 6,096
    edited November -1
    Run home with it laughing like a school boy.[:D][:p]


    Seriously though, I probably wouldn't say a damn thing to nobody and hide it. Rather than it be destroyed or stolen by some ATF agent and lose a piece of history.

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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Finders keepers... Assuming my choices do not include returning a valuable heirloom to the former family, and I have only to either keep it or notify BATF of a "potential" problem with a gun I haven't even fired... well, let's just say I'd preserve the piece of history too. A violin case does not a full auto make, as the old saying goes. [8D]

    T. Jefferson: "[When doing Constitutional interpretation], let us [go] back to the time when [it] was adopted. [Rather than] invent a meaning [let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."

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  • Horse Plains DrifterHorse Plains Drifter Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 40,234 ***** Forums Admin
    edited November -1
    I'd have a grin so wide that everybody would know something was up.[:D]

    81st FA BN WWII...Thanks Dad
    U!S!A! ALL THE WAY!!
  • gap1916gap1916 Member Posts: 4,977
    edited November -1
    I would restore it with the rest of the house. [8D]

    Greg
  • paboogerpabooger Member Posts: 13,953
    edited November -1
    For such a special occasion Id have to break out my satin boxers! Only Ma has seen me in those!![:I][^]

    pacamo

    To Ride, shoot straight,and speak the truth
    This was the Ancient law of Youth
    Old times are past, old times are done:
    But the Law runs true, O little son!
  • rldowns3rldowns3 Member Posts: 6,096
    edited November -1
    Let's keep it that way Pa[:D][:p]

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  • mark christianmark christian Member Posts: 24,443 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    These sorts of things actually happen more often than people think. I assume you want to know what is legal-- if not then it is a case of "what Thompson"! Legally everything hinges on whether or not the firearm you found was registerd during the ammnesty in 1968 or previously. If the Thompson was registered and is transferable you are in good shape. Most state have laws regarding the theft of found property so you can't just keep the gun. It should be handed over to the police to be kept secure while the BATFE attempts to contact the registered owner. If he is dead and has no heirs then whatever laws in your location dealing with found property come into play; since you now own the house and the item was found in the house and there is no previous owner or other parties related to the owner of the firearm it can be transfered to you on a Form 4.

    If "Mr. Smith", the owner of the Thompson is still alive and kicking then you have to return Thompson to him. If he is dead and has a family then they of course inherit the gun and the transfer is NFA Tax free on a Form 5. Since a Thompson can easily be worth $10,000 and up, someone related to "Mr. Smith" will probably want the gun for themseleves and not be at all eager to simply give it to you! If the gun was never registered it cannot be registered now and must be surrendered to the BATFE-- There is ZERO recourse in this, although you may be able to hand over just the receiver and keep the parts as a kit, the BATFE field agent will make that determination. LOTS of hypothetical postings this weekend!

    Mark T. Christian
  • HangfireHangfire Member Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This actually happened to me. I acquired an old house and in cleaning up, found a WW2 Reising in like new condition. I immediately contacted the Sheriffs Dept and surrendered the gun. They have had it on display for over 25 years at their Academy.I enjoy firearms far to much to have risked a felony possession charge.Bob

    Gun control is a steady hand
  • mark christianmark christian Member Posts: 24,443 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Kimber, it sounds like your friend has what was known as a DEWAT- Deactivated War Trophy. In the late 1950's a large number of importers, guys like Sam Cummings of INTERARMCO (later Interarms) imported thousands of these surplus machinguns for sales to collectors. Back in those carefree days simply welding a rod in the barrel or welding the chamber closed was considered to be deactivatiion by the ATTU (as the BATFE was then known) and the guns were simply considered decorations and wall hangers.

    In the early 1960's the ATTU began a policy of "Once a machinegun, always a machinegun" because WAY too many people were reactivating these DEWATS and not bothering to pay the $200 NFA Tax and the DEWAT program was closed. Then current DEWATS were grandfathered as non firearms if they remained unmodified. The Gun Control Act of 1968 gave the ATTU "Once a machingun..." policy the force of law and DEWATS were no longer exempt. They were now considered to be actual firearms and needed to be registered during the 1968 ammnesty-- although no NFA Tax was payable since the firearms were not functional. If the firearm in question was legally registered at that time it can be reactivated as a functional machinegun at any time by simply paying the $200 NFA Tax. The Sec. of the Treasury has the authority under the GCA-68 to have ammnesties as often as he wishes; so far there has been only one-- the first one!

    Mark T. Christian
  • BOBBYWINSBOBBYWINS Member Posts: 7,810
    edited November -1
    Except for Mark's very knowledgable input(no offense please,Mark)
    and the part about Pa's boxers,ALL OF THE ABOVE!![:D][:D][:D][:p][:p]

    IT'S WHAT PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT THEMSELVES THAT MAKES THEM AFRAID.
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,529 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    First thing I do is look over the contract of the sale. Most all real estate is sold "AS IS" with all fixtures ( toilets, drapes ect ) UNLESS specified. Finders keepers. Then I contact the Police or Sheriff's dept. and turn it in for holding.GET A RECEIPT. Then the Feds and my attorney can talk about the legal aspects.
  • HangfireHangfire Member Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I owned one of the Dewats Mark is referring to. I missed the 68 amnesty while in College, and when I attempted to register it only weeks after the deadline, was told to bring it to the ATF in L.A. I will never forget the arrogent attitude and smirking grins of the agents when they informed me I was SOL, and should be happy I wasn't charged. The vision of my Japanese Nambu Light Machinegun 7.7 sitting on the linoleum floor in that office is still crystal clear in my mind!!!!At least I had it stripped down to only the bbld receiver.Bob

    Gun control is a steady hand
  • RosieRosie Member Posts: 14,525 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hide that sucker!!!!!
  • wundudneewundudnee Member Posts: 6,108 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would turn it in in a minute. I'd hate to lose all the rest of my guns because of it, and I'm to old to do time.[:p]

    I saw what appeared to be a full auto .45 grease gun sell at a farm auction yesterday. The auctioneer said he was just selling personal property, and what you did with it wasn't any of his business. The first guy that bought it got cold feet and had it auctioned off again. It brought $400.00. There were probably 400 people at that sale, who knows who may have been there? Besides the buyers name is recorded.[B)]

    ....................
    Old? First you forget names; then you forget faces; then you forget to pull your zipper up; then you forget to pull your zipper down.
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  • FrancFFrancF Member Posts: 35,279 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would look to the left then the right, then in the back of me then to the front of me. [8D] Nobodys looking pick it up, hide it run like hell. kinda like that John Belushi skit on SNL.

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    "I know Everything because
    my Wife is a Hair Stylist"
  • beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    What Thompson??? I'd just assume it was an old fashioned and rare violin that needed preservation for future generations of Americans who wanted to hear its pure sweet sound. I'd doubt that a law abiding American citizen would really go to jail for mere possession of the weapon...like hangfire said if it was confiscated they'd probably whack you on the peepee with a wet noodle and take your violin away from you. Beach.
  • RembrandtRembrandt Member Posts: 4,486 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    ...heehee...X-Ring Beach, so far the only thing I've found in my home renovations is rotted lumber and bad plumbing...[:)] Don't think I'd want to risk being a felon by keeping something like that...but it is entertaining to think about.


    I am always amazed at the knowlege and information GB members have. Mark, Kimber, and everyone else....thanks for the wealth of information, should the day ever come that we cross paths, it would be my privilege to buy any of you dinner just to hear more. Appreciate it very much.
  • Smokin GunsSmokin Guns Member Posts: 99
    edited November -1
    Rembrandt, Are you from the Buckeye State?

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  • RembrandtRembrandt Member Posts: 4,486 ✭✭
    edited November -1
  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hawkeyes rule!

    anyhoo...

    Ever heard of the drug-runner boat that was siezed and later sold at auction only to be found by it's new owner to contain a stash of Thompson SMG's in hidden compartments? I read this story somewhere within the last few years.

    I've never intentionally violated any firearms laws (there are so stinking many) but who knows? I may or may not have hypothetically passed through the city of Chicago a few years back when moving from the east coast to the midwest and I may or may not have had a large container full of rifles, shotguns and handguns when I did so. I hypothetically might have thought that I hypothetically would have been protected under Title 18 of the United States Code but who knows? It never happened so I'll only wonder.

    In the case of such a "discovery" I'd probably wrestle with it for awhile and then make the gun "go away" via various networks and such. My perspective is a little bit different though. Granted, a soldier must always obey the laws of the host nation when overseas ESPECIALLY when there is no Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) in place yet. I found myself in such a situation. However, Marshall Law was instituted during a time of national crisis while I was there. You better believe I had local contacts for the local acquisition of potentially-needed tools of self-preservation should things have gone sour. I have no SHTF tools of self-preservation set aside or cached away. This would be a tempting piece if the opportunity presented itself. Then again, I'd probably just bend to the law of the land. It's a tough call.
  • pickenuppickenup Member Posts: 22,844 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Would not want to take the chance of the Jack Booted Thugs arresting me for "possession."

    Packing grease, a couple of cases of ammo, a few very very HEAVY duty plastic bags, national forest/park land, a shovel....you get the picture? Then an "exact" set of GPS coordinates left in my will, in case I do not get to play with it before "the inevitable" happens to me. Only the wife/kids (MAYBE??? a good friend) would know what the coordinates were for.


    The gene pool needs chlorine.
  • alledanalledan Member Posts: 19,541
    edited November -1
    It is mine mine mine mine mine[:D]
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,529 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Rembradt, Your right, some pretty intelligent answers. However, I can testify that almost everytime I have shot my sub-gun, the law either contacts me or arrives in person. Some kook citizen will call em' up and report full auto fire. So if this Thompson were found , it would be almost impossible to hide from the publics attention when shooting it. No paperwork and it would be terminal for the gun and the person shooting it. Now I mainly go to the range where they leave me alone.
  • elect1mikeelect1mike Member Posts: 4,585 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Funny you posted this I was at a garage sale last summer and there was just 2 of us looking at the stuff the other guy was looking at a dresser and I was looking at some old radio stuff. There was a black case on the table I was looking at and I ask the woman having the sale what was in it. She said it was a old gun her grand pa had well the other guy came over by me as I opened the case ( by the way it was locked so she gave me the key) Inside was a thompson with 2 stick and a barrel mag the stock was in one compartment and the whole thing fit real nice. I ask how much she said 100 dollars the other guy pulls a badge tells her its against the law for her to have this unless she has a tax stamp for it which she said she didn't know if her dad or grandpa had a stamp for it. SO BOYS AND GIRLS he takes it
    with her blessing. Thats the last time I ask what is in something while someone else can hear me.[V]

    bull.txt
    col elect1mike Illinois
    volinters RRG
    O give me a home where no democrats roam
  • nordnord Member Posts: 6,106
    edited November -1
    I hear that you "tune" Thompson violins with 45ACP's. Violins aren't in violation of ATF laws, so I'd keep it at that. I just wouldn't play the instrument.

    As for music lessons... I'd defer. Neighbors will think you're disturbing the peace.

    Seriously - A hard call to make. A piece of history that will be destroyed or stolen by the same folks you turn it in to. At the same time a machinegun that can't be used for any purpose whatsoever.

    Keep it and you're a felon (if you know you have it). I'd leave it as an old violin somewhere in the attic. Never having opened the case, I'd assume it was nothing but an old instrument.

    Nord
  • PearywPearyw Member Posts: 3,699
    edited November -1
    The company that I started working for in the 60's, had a great number of weapons left over from WWII that they had used for security. They had 16 gauge Ithica shotguns with 20" barrels, Model 64 Winchesters in 32 Special, a lot of Victory model S&W pistols, and 5 Reising machine guns. The head of security called me one day in the mid-1970's because he knew that I collected guns and showed all of these to me. They had decided that they had no use for them and wanted to dispose of them. They had not bothered to register the Reisings in 1968, so we finally decided to give them to the local police department. They auctioned off the rest to all the local gun dealers in a single lot. I was very unhappy that they wouldn't let the employees bid on them.
  • marinerahmarinerah Member Posts: 99 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I wouldn't tell anyone. Take that puppy to the range and fire away!
  • RembrandtRembrandt Member Posts: 4,486 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Elect1mike...makes me want to go to some garage sales...[;)]
  • neatgunsneatguns Member Posts: 135 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would recommend anyone "finding" an un-registered C&R type NFA item to just leave it where it is for a while. A few more months or years in grandpa's attic won't matter much now. Just don't be caught transporting or using it. There is a chance that the ATFE will be forced into another amnesty to register unpapered NFA items. It seems that their records from pre 1968 times are incomplete. Some legal paperwork has been lost by them. About the time they loose a unregistered possession case in Federal court they will have to redo this system. If a federal agency can't testify in court that a given firearm is or is not registered, their testimony in such cases will be worthless. This is much more likely for original items. I doubt they would ever let anyone register converted items of recent vintage.
  • elect1mikeelect1mike Member Posts: 4,585 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    rembrandt this is not the only time this happened to me I was at a estate sale of a doctor I had known for years some guys were milling around looking in the area I was in his daughter came up and said Hi mike how are you we talked and I ask if her dad had any guns they were going to sell. She said come in here I walked with her to another room in the house and the walls were lined with winchesters
    1866,s to modern levers model 24's as well as model 12's in all he had a total of 96 guns I ask if she was selling them and she said it was up to her brother I told her if he does sell them to call me so I could maybe buy some. I really would have loved to have a gun he owned us being friends. Well I see her about a month later and she tells me her brother sold the whole lot to one of the guys that was there when she showed me them. She said we got a real good deal on them her brother sold the lot for 10, 000 dollars. Hell the 1866 was worth 10,000 by its self. I didn't have the heart to tell her her family had been took. I saw some of the guns at the next big gun show and a dealer who is famous for taking people was bragging to another dealer how he had fleest this guy out of them. I hope to hit a home run just one time but I won't take someone to do it.

    bull.txt
    col elect1mike Illinois
    volinters RRG
    O give me a home where no democrats roam
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,529 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Elect, That wasn't a home run it was a GRAND SLAM HOME RUN.
  • IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    In re: the SMGs, if I should ever happen on such a find with no witnesses, nobody, but nobody, would hear about it until the laws changed or it came "the day." One must wonder just how many such stashes there are out there. I rather expect far more than anyone suspects . . . . The drug store Rambos are either blowing smoke or making license plates, but there are plenty of people who can - and do - keep their own counsel in matters such as this.

    As to the M1866, etc., this was not a home run - it was a theft. Perhaps not legally, but certainly morally / ethically. There was a dealer in this area (actually his wife) who made it a practice to come calling within 24 hours of the funeral when she knew some elderly woman lost a husband who had firearms. Eventually, the pair ended up closing up their shop / moving to a different area of the country because the local market wouldn't do business with them and they didn't have enough volume from their exploitive efforts to sustain the operation. I've always rather hoped they ended up eating dog food under a bridge.
  • 0311marine0311marine Member Posts: 3,233
    edited November -1
    i would probally feel guilty,and tell the owners what i found and then give them a bid on it.could have been a family keep sake grandpa held on to.tough descion.

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    SEMPER FI
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