In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
Electrical Question for the Experienced.........
Marc1301
Member Posts: 31,895 ✭✭✭
Being in the HVAC business, I am usually capable of taking care of any electrical issue known. This one has me a bit confused!
The issues at my house started to be noticeable quite some time ago, but seem to be getting worse.
If my washing machine is running in the agitate, or spin mode,......my incandescent lights will "oscillate", i.e. go up and down in intensity along with the movement of the washer cycle.
Nothing seems wrong with the washer, and it is pulling the correct amount of current.
The next weird item, and I just saw it again yesterday, is in my garage. I have recessed lights in the ceiling, and I plugged in a large wet/dry vac.
When I turned it on,......the incandescent "cans" increased in brightness by about 10%, and remain there steady, while using the vac. I turn it off, and they drop back in intensity.
I am thinking of 2 things that come to mind.
Could the load in my panel be "unbalanced"?
My other thought,......especially with the garage issue, is possibly a loose neutral on the power company side.
I guess it could be something to do with their step down transformers, as there has been a LOT of construction out here in the past couple of years. I am trying to eliminate anything on my end before creating a stink with Progress Energy.
Any help from those more familiar than I is appreciated as usual![;)]
The issues at my house started to be noticeable quite some time ago, but seem to be getting worse.
If my washing machine is running in the agitate, or spin mode,......my incandescent lights will "oscillate", i.e. go up and down in intensity along with the movement of the washer cycle.
Nothing seems wrong with the washer, and it is pulling the correct amount of current.
The next weird item, and I just saw it again yesterday, is in my garage. I have recessed lights in the ceiling, and I plugged in a large wet/dry vac.
When I turned it on,......the incandescent "cans" increased in brightness by about 10%, and remain there steady, while using the vac. I turn it off, and they drop back in intensity.
I am thinking of 2 things that come to mind.
Could the load in my panel be "unbalanced"?
My other thought,......especially with the garage issue, is possibly a loose neutral on the power company side.
I guess it could be something to do with their step down transformers, as there has been a LOT of construction out here in the past couple of years. I am trying to eliminate anything on my end before creating a stink with Progress Energy.
Any help from those more familiar than I is appreciated as usual![;)]
"Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here." - William Shatner
Comments
Just couldn't find anything....
Then eventually one phase went totally dead! Turns out where the underground wires came over to the power entry to my garage, they were lower in elevation and right beside my Septic drain field - one of the phases had a nick in the insulation, and the septic water had corroded the ALUMINUM wire till there was nothing left!
Borrowed a big crimper and some connectors from work, begged a length of wire from the power boys on the road, and fixed it myself. Wrapped it for a couple feet on each side of the splices with silicone self-sealing H.V. tape, then covered that with about quarter mile of Scotch 88 tape, then reburied it all. No problems in the last five years or so.
When I was doing a load survey for setting up my generator transfer switch, looking at what loads I wanted to run on the emergency genset, I found that my house was pretty badly out of balance, and had no problems with it before, nor noticed any difference when I balanced the running load.
What I did find in both exercises above, was that the Aluminum wires coming in to the house get loose - I have tightened them each time, as the thermoscan showed some heating at the loose connections.
The copper side (my side of the main breaker) had only a couple loose connections when I did the first survey, and then has stayed tight since.
As far as the brightening - transformers have "Boost/Buck" features, and sometimes they are overcompensated. This can cause some brightening - this is not so bad, as it makes your motors and such have higher power, with less current draw - helps them last longer and work harder. You just want to look at the voltage to make sure it is something like +3% when it is happening, not +10% ... that could take a toll on your electronics.
JM
Generally off the main you have two main sizes of wire: 14 (15 amps)and 12 (20 amps).
Generally you run the 14s to lights, and the 12s to outlets. Usually 10 to 12 outlets per run. Somewhere someone has run that light circuit off the washing machine outlet. The only fix to to move that light to another circuit. This can be done in the attic, but it's no fun.
Let us know how this turns out.
Margaret Thatcher
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
Mark Twain
My septic is on the opposite side of the house though, so I doubt that would have any bearing on my issue,.......good thought though!
Also I have done nothing in the area where the underground runs are.
I guess tree roots could be a possibility,.....don't really know, but I do have a lot of large live oaks here.
I have already checked for any loose connections on my side of the main, and the few that could be cranked down a bit, made no difference.
I am trying to find my "cheapo" meter right now, as I left my Fluke Multi over at an Industrial customer Friday. I am going back tomorrow and they have a "tool crib" where you can lock up items.
Before this started about a year ago,.....all I ever had was the typical momentary dim of incandescent fixtures from LRA of my AC compressor, which I consider to be normal when you are in the "boons" per se.
All I have ever added here were a couple 120V circuits that I even put on the "doubler" type SP breakers, and I used 12 gauge romex, not 14.
I am convinced it is on the power company side, but don't want to look like a putz when I start an issue out of this.
My first thought is that someone has run a light off a outlet wire.
Generally off the main you have two main sizes of wire: 14 (15 amps)and 12 (20 amps).
Generally you run the 14s to lights, and the 12s to outlets. Usually 10 to 12 outlets per run. Somewhere someone has run that light circuit off the washing machine outlet. The only fix to to move that light to another circuit. This can be done in the attic, but it's no fun.
Let us know how this turns out.
Alpine,......funny thing is the laundry room outlets are a totally different circuit than the lights are on.
I realize that incandescent lights are very sensitive to "motor" noise on the same circuit, but they are entirely different home runs.
Another thought - are you on a spur that has a big operation on it too? Something like a chicken farm, Dairy operation, or some such? Sometimes when they trip off/turn on, you can get some big sags or spikes.
Actually, I've seen similar problems resulting from loose connection(s) in the service panel or issues with the power source coming onto the property.
If you can't feel the music; it's only pink noise!
I tightened every connection in the house. Washer, dryer, refridgerator, stove, every electrical outlet in the house. Every screw in the panel. Even every light fixture. Found nothing.
Called the light company and explained the symptoms. They came out and put a graph at the meter. After a week, they came back out to read it. They told me I had better get it fixed before it causes a fire. Said in no way could it be their problem.
I put a volt meter in an outlet next to my easy chair so I could easily read it when the lights would dim.
One leg would drop down to about 90 volts and the other leg would increase to about 140 volts.
I was scared to death to even live in the house.
This went on for about 4 months.
My neighbor had a fire at his elect. panel and nearly lost his house.
He complained to the light company also and they finally found the problem.
LOOSE NEUTRAL where our drop came out of the transformer.
They re-clamped it and all was well.
Thanks---Peabo
Yeah, if your Fluke has a Min/Max feature, you can put it on line and go around turning on stuff. Write down the voltages at no load, and at max load (be sure both your Daughter and Wife are using their Hair Dryers, while the toaster and the Microwave are on).
Another thought - are you on a spur that has a big operation on it too? Something like a chicken farm, Dairy operation, or some such? Sometimes when they trip off/turn on, you can get some big sags or spikes.
Pretty much just single family housing out here.
I do get a lot of the power companies "trips and resets" out here though,......lightning arresters dropping and the infamous tree limb hitting a wire routine.
My Fluke will do a hold max reading, but I can get the use of anything I need from the same customer.
I found my cheapo, and am going to see what voltage changes I get in the garage with the vac routine.
I am thinking I have a loose neutral on the power company side, or a leak to ground issue in the underground utilities.
We have been getting pounded with rain the past several days, and the ground is soaked.
Thanks for all of the input so far!
Oh one more thing - go to harbor freight (even if only online) and get one of those plug-in analysers - you might find an outlet/circuit that has the neutral and the ground wired wrong, settin up some wild ground loop.
I have one of those already,......and I believe I have tested every outlet. Need to do it again I guess.
Anyway here is what I got for readings of about 10 seconds each.
Try to understand this scenario,....I know it ain't easy.
I closed in my 2 car garage, to make it into a gym/spa room,.....that is why I have the cans in the ceiling.
I have a switch right by the entry door into the house from the garage. That switch was for a fluorescent garage light before, and also my garage door opener was on that circuit.
I took that circuit, and ran the cans from it, and replaced the toggle switch with a Lutron "touch" dimmer,......the one with the little green lights next to it to show the intensity setting. Double tap it, and they go full bright.
Right next to that is a GFCI that is on a different 120 circuit. This is what I am plugging the vac into.
With nothing running I got between 126.9 - 127.3 VAC from that outlet.
When I turn on the vac only on,....I get 119.6 - 119.8, same outlet.
That outlet with no load, and the lights full blast registers 130.1 - 126.5,......remember, different circuit, and my readings are all coming from the GFCI.
I then leave the lights on full blast, and turn on the vac in the GFCI,......I get 121.6 - 122 VAC, but as said before a definite increase in brightness.
We are powered here for 120 VAC,......the spread over the entire steps stated above is 10.5 volts, which is within the typical 10% specs? Why are the lights getting brighter with the vac running on a seperate circuit?
This is weird. Keep in mind all of these changes have been her since around 2000, and this did not happen before.
Unless you have several complainants, they will tell you it's your problem. Stick to your guns, be civil but firm and make them fix the problem. I have dealt with them in the past and unless you point the exact problem area, they will turn a blind eye. Just respond that you will sue for damages and gross negligence and name them personally as responsible.
Margaret Thatcher
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
Mark Twain
If you have checked the outlet/lighting circuit, then my money is the neutral connection on the power company side.
Unless you have several complainants, they will tell you it's your problem. Stick to your guns, be civil but firm and make them fix the problem. I have dealt with them in the past and unless you point the exact problem area, they will turn a blind eye. Just respond that you will sue for damages and gross negligence and name them personally as responsible.
Or you could put your meter on the power coming in and get the reading. Tell them what readings you get and they will check their side. Don
Got Ants?
Outside,.......yep! You don't live in Florida and not have ants.[xx(]
Inside the house, or the walls,.....no.
All I ever see is the occasional spider.
I bait around my well pressure switch, and also around my AC condenser to keep them out of the contacts.
No bugs inside though.
quote:Originally posted by Alpine
If you have checked the outlet/lighting circuit, then my money is the neutral connection on the power company side.
Unless you have several complainants, they will tell you it's your problem. Stick to your guns, be civil but firm and make them fix the problem. I have dealt with them in the past and unless you point the exact problem area, they will turn a blind eye. Just respond that you will sue for damages and gross negligence and name them personally as responsible.
Or you could put your meter on the power coming in and get the reading. Tell them what readings you get and they will check their side. Don
This is what I am planning on doing next, as I have access to some very hi-tech monitors. Mine will not do "recording" over days, but I sure can borrow one!
This is a pain, and I am convinced that it is on their side.
As Alpine said though, it can be quite a venture to get them to accept the problem is on their end , and to correct it, unless you have a number of folks in the immediate area complaining.
Some folks don't really pay any attention to this kind of stuff, and simply consider it normal.
quote:Originally posted by dcon12
quote:Originally posted by Alpine
If you have checked the outlet/lighting circuit, then my money is the neutral connection on the power company side.
Unless you have several complainants, they will tell you it's your problem. Stick to your guns, be civil but firm and make them fix the problem. I have dealt with them in the past and unless you point the exact problem area, they will turn a blind eye. Just respond that you will sue for damages and gross negligence and name them personally as responsible.
Or you could put your meter on the power coming in and get the reading. Tell them what readings you get and they will check their side. Don
This is what I am planning on doing next, as I have access to some very hi-tech monitors. Mine will not do "recording" over days, but I sure can borrow one!
This is a pain, and I am convinced that it is on their side.
As Alpine said though, it can be quite a venture to get them to accept the problem is on their end , and to correct it, unless you have a number of folks in the immediate area complaining.
Some folks don't really pay any attention to this kind of stuff, and simply consider it normal.
I take care of over 25 meters. When I tell them where the problem is, they come on out and check it. A loose neutral on their end will cause the problem you are describing. Been there, done that. Don
quote:Originally posted by Marc1301
quote:Originally posted by dcon12
quote:Originally posted by Alpine
If you have checked the outlet/lighting circuit, then my money is the neutral connection on the power company side.
Unless you have several complainants, they will tell you it's your problem. Stick to your guns, be civil but firm and make them fix the problem. I have dealt with them in the past and unless you point the exact problem area, they will turn a blind eye. Just respond that you will sue for damages and gross negligence and name them personally as responsible.
Or you could put your meter on the power coming in and get the reading. Tell them what readings you get and they will check their side. Don
This is what I am planning on doing next, as I have access to some very hi-tech monitors. Mine will not do "recording" over days, but I sure can borrow one!
This is a pain, and I am convinced that it is on their side.
As Alpine said though, it can be quite a venture to get them to accept the problem is on their end , and to correct it, unless you have a number of folks in the immediate area complaining.
Some folks don't really pay any attention to this kind of stuff, and simply consider it normal.
I take care of over 25 meters. When I tell them where the problem is, they come on out and check it. A loose neutral on their end will cause the problem you are describing. Been there, done that. Don
Thanks Don,......that is where I also believe it is originating from.
Looks like the majority of us agree that it is a loose neutral and it is on the power companies side.
Call them, tell them to come out and fix that neutral, that it has been diagnosed by some experts. If he doesn't believe you, show him this thread on your computer ![8D]
PS Has your bill been a little higher than you thought it should be?
After they fix that loose neutral, your bill will go down.
Thanks---Peabo
Well, I guess we solved that problem !
Looks like the majority of us agree that it is a loose neutral and it is on the power companies side.
Call them, tell them to come out and fix that neutral, that it has been diagnosed by some experts. If he doesn't believe you, show him this thread on your computer ![8D]
PS Has your bill been a little higher than you thought it should be?
After they fix that loose neutral, your bill will go down.
Thanks---Peabo
Peabo,......that is priceless![:D]
Actually I do not believe that they will give a hoot about GB forums, but they will after I take my own readings.
I am convinced like you and others, of what the issue is.
Actually my power bill has not been an issue to date,.......latest was 130 bucks and change.
Thanks to all for the input.
Nothing out of spec, so I put a call into Progress Energy, and got the typical response.
A woman with a "bad attitude" answered the phone, and asked what my problem was. After telling her what I do for a living and what testing I had done on my side, she said someone would be out within 3 days to check.
Today I got sick of waiting, and called again raising heck,......told them what the problem had to be again.
They said within 3 days. Told them I was going to make an issue of this since I basically told them what was wrong, and if stuff in my house fried, I would be writing letters everywhere.
One hour later I have a bucket truck here, and we discuss the problem, and the lineman agrees with me.
Pulls the meter, and torques all the connections.
Guess what?
The ground lug in my meter box breaks off, and I grab it off the ground,........could only hold it for about 2 seconds, it was so hot.
New lug installed hot, and I "hepped", and problem gone.
Very nice service guy,.......offered him a brew, but he couldn't take it, even though he said he sure would love to.
Thought I would report back!
Hope this may help someone in the future,.......and thanks for the ones that confirmed my suspicions.
Glad you got it fixed.
Thanks---Peabo
Does Progress Energy get their power from the 'nuke' station up that way ?
Glad you got it fixed.
Thanks---Peabo
Thanks Peabo,......yep, they run the Crystal River facility.
They may operate more.
I was surprised recently to find out how low Florida ranks on the scale according to the percentage of power provided by nuclear energy.
Electricity and booze don't mix.
I knew he couldn't accept one, but I had to offer, as I had one out there.
It was my first, and he gave me a set of the "gloves". He was having trouble with the box being hot, and keeping the lug aligned.
I simply held an insulated screwdriver to the side while he torqued it.
Heck,......could have fixed it myself it it wasn't a crime to pull your own meter.
and don't play one on TV either
but my lights would get brighter when we turned the dryer on. It was a ground fault on the power CO line coming into the house.
meter to pole they fix
We have Tampa Electric in this area and my bill is a lot more than yours. Wish we had nuclear power.
Thanks---Peabo
Check the amps your washer is pulling. Sounds like the motor is about to go and is drawing too much current. Otherwise. check all of the connestions in the breaker box and be sure they are very tight! As wires heat (expand) and cool (contract) they sometimes need a retorqueing for a good connestion. Even the service connections at the meter.
Danny, and Chevelle,.......read the prior posts.
The problem is solved.
Thanks anyway though.[;)]