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Odd question about A-10 Warthog's gun

bambihunterbambihunter Member Posts: 10,685 ✭✭✭
edited August 2003 in General Discussion
The A-10 Warhog's 30mm cannon shoots depleted uranium bullets. Does anyone have a clue how they manage that? Is the barrel made of even more dense meterials or is there a soft outer jacket to engage the rifling or what?
Just in case you're wondering, I watched a show about 'em again today and it made me curious... [?]
Fanatic collector of the 10mm auto.
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    The DunedanThe Dunedan Member Posts: 632 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The DU core is surrounded by a softer jacket, much like a Tungsten-Carbide rifle bullet. The DU tip is left exposed, in order to allow faster penetration.

    Stand up and fight, or lie down and die; for it is better to burn than to ever fade away.
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    bambihunterbambihunter Member Posts: 10,685 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    That was kinda what I was thinkin' but I sure didn't know... Thanks for the real scoop.
    I swear, shooting a gun that literally had a plane designed around it has to be one heck of a thrill! The show I watched said they could actually make the plane stall just by firing the gun - now that's recoil! I sure hope they don't retire it. I think it still has a place in this techno world...
    Fanatic collector of the 10mm auto.
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    RustyBonesRustyBones Member Posts: 4,956
    edited November -1
    whats the point of a depleted uranium round? What does it do..??[?]
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    Night StalkerNight Stalker Member Posts: 11,967
    edited November -1
    Bambi,

    The USAF nearly gave teh Close Air Support (CAS) role, and airplane (A-10) over to the Army. It is considered a "lowely" job in the USAF to fly the airframe. We, in the Army, certainly feel differently about it. The a-10 and their highly trained crews are the most leathal weapon system a ground guy has at his disposal when the odds are no longer in our favor. Additionally, some of the crews recieve "sandy" training and qualification, and then they are a heck of an asset to have in the air over head when conducting a Personnel Recovery (PR) or a Combat Search and Rescure (CSAR) mission.

    My hat is off to those guys/gals. They do a great job, and recieve little attention from their "peers".

    NSDQ!

    "Nobody dislikes war more than warriors, but we value the causes of peace so highly that we will not duck a war in an effort to get a lasting peace." -General Daniel "Chappie" James
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    bambihunterbambihunter Member Posts: 10,685 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Depleted uranium is more dense than steel therefore can penetrate armor. The A-10 was designed and built as a tank killer. From what I gather, it can take out a tank at 1 mile and armored vehicles at up to 2 miles. It sure punches a big hole in a tank with its 7 barrel gun, if I recall it is called the G8 and is absolutely awesome. The rounds it shoots are around a foot long. I'll look around for a pic and post it if I can find one.

    Let's try this... It has odd characters that might not work:

    http://www.a-10.org/photos/p.asp?FileName=05%2Ejpg
    Fanatic collector of the 10mm auto.
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    Matt45Matt45 Member Posts: 3,185
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by The Dunedan
    The DU core is surrounded by a softer jacket, much like a Tungsten-Carbide rifle bullet. The DU tip is left exposed, in order to allow faster penetration.

    Stand up and fight, or lie down and die; for it is better to burn than to ever fade away.


    I don't think I ever seen ammo for the Warthog, but I do believe that it is saboted much like the 25mm Bushmaster round is.

    fm_cr.jpgcomp45.gif

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    The DunedanThe Dunedan Member Posts: 632 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Nope, solid as a rock. Painted blue. [8D]

    Stand up and fight, or lie down and die; for it is better to burn than to ever fade away.
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    ElMuertoMonkeyElMuertoMonkey Member Posts: 12,898
    edited November -1
    Another less-publicized reason for DU rounds is the pyrophoric effect uranium (depleted or otherwise) has when subjected to friction against any ferrous material. In other words, it comes into contact with iron or any of its alloys and POOF! A whole lot of fire and a whole lot of destroyed enemy gear.
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    Matt45Matt45 Member Posts: 3,185
    edited November -1
    Dunedan-I didn't think we were talking about training ammo....

    fm_cr.jpgcomp45.gif

    Reserving my Right to Arm Bears!!!!

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    Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands."
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    bambihunterbambihunter Member Posts: 10,685 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yeah, ElMonkey from what I know (which is relatively little), it sparks and does a lot of penetration damage plus it does look like there'd be some collateral damage to with all that fire/sparks around the victim tanks own weapons.
    Fanatic collector of the 10mm auto.
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    Shootist3006Shootist3006 Member Posts: 4,171
    edited November -1
    quote:Depleted uranium is more dense than steel ????

    So is lead!

    NRA ENdowment, CRPA Life, NRA ILA EVC, Past President NRA Members Council
    Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem. Semper Fidelis
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    Smoky14Smoky14 Member Posts: 531 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I was the NCOIC of the first A-10 unit to come on line. We were testing the gun on an army range in Cal. The back stop was concrete 30ft high and 50ft wide and about 10ft thick. After the first pass the complete back stop was level with the ground. The look on the face of the Army commander, when the dust finally cleared, was so funny to us AF types we could hardly contain ourselves.[}:)]
    As someone said before, it is truly the best close air support weapon ever launched.


    People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid.
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    Brth729Brth729 Member Posts: 1,231 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I read an article recently that talked about the possibility of "mothballing" all the A-10s in favor of a newer production plane. I'll try and find it again so you can all read it.

    It's a dog-eat-dog world...and nine times out of ten I have on Milk-Bone underwear.
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    gunpaqgunpaq Member Posts: 4,607 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    If I remember correctly after the Gulf War the Klinton administration wanted to mothball the A-10 and replace it's role with the F-16. The A-10 is one truly amazing aircraft which I feel is still highly underestimated. I had the opportunity to watch test flights of newly manufactured A-10's for almost a year.............an air show every day. Keep it simple stupid with the A-10, Amen!

    Pack slow, fall stable, pull high, hit dead center.<BR>
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    Brth729Brth729 Member Posts: 1,231 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Found what I read. Here's the link. Hope it works.


    http://forums.military.com/1/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=78919038&f=65819558&m=9271923356

    It's a dog-eat-dog world...and nine times out of ten I have on Milk-Bone underwear.
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    IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    bambi, thanks for posting the pic of the A-10 weapons system. I have some familiarity with the ammo, but had never seen the "gatling gun" before.

    Dunedan - the loading you reference is a "Training - Practice" round. This marking is now standard on all large bore US military ammo, including the grenade launchers used by ground forces, artillery rounds, etc. Cheaper, safer and less destructive to targets. Further, while it does not have a sabot in the sense of the plastic inserts made to work in .30 caliber necks, like most large bore projectiles, these do have drive bands on the body of the projectile, which are softer metal (typically brass alloys) which are easy on the rifling but strong enough to impart the rotation to the projectile. The military has experimented with - and fielded plastic drive bands on projectiles in the 20mm - 50mm range in recent years.
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    Night StalkerNight Stalker Member Posts: 11,967
    edited November -1
    The F-16 community has picked up a limited CAS role (X-CAS, GCAS, etc..), but they are only riding the hard-earned wave of success from the A-10s.

    If you remember the 2 IL NG Airmen who are still in trouble over dropping the bombs on the Canadian troops in Afghanistan, you'll quickly realize it is VERY tough to bring CAS in "danger close" (which is what a Soldier/Marine needs) from 10,000 feet. An A-10 driver usially has no problem getting in so close on a pass that you can al but surely see the ear to ear smile on his/her face.

    One of the better courses I have attended is the Joint Firepower Course. Really good forum for weapons effects/munnitions, etc... Bottomline, you tell them what you want to do (suppress, destroy, disable, interupt, etc...), describe the target (BMP, BTR, T-62, etc...), and they'll match the appropriate weapon system and munnition for the desired effect.

    This airframe has also proven its worth in "spades" with relation to Aircrew survivability. No matter how shot-up these things get, thay ALMOST ALWAYS make it home. For this reason, the USAF has decided to revisit and increase the life-span of this proven combat multiplier.

    NSDQ!

    "Nobody dislikes war more than warriors, but we value the causes of peace so highly that we will not duck a war in an effort to get a lasting peace." -General Daniel "Chappie" James
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    outdoortexasoutdoortexas Member Posts: 4,780
    edited November -1
    Night Stalker,
    Mentioned before I had crew-chiefed for VNAF, here's the A1-E which was the slow flyer we gave the Viet's. Do notice the windscreen, that's what the low ceiling will do for ya.

    The other is the F-5 A-model with 500 pounders, and a close friend that worked with me. Bernie was about 280 or so, but it's still a funny
    pic with the plane looking even smaller than it was.


    plane1.jpg

    plane2.jpg
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    outdoortexasoutdoortexas Member Posts: 4,780
    edited November -1
    Oh well, try again. You can see them here, I can't post today for some reason although I'm doing the same as always.???

    http://www.outdoortexasadventures.com/plane1.jpg

    http://www.outdoortexasadventures.com/plane2.jpg
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    nitrouznitrouz Member Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The best ground combat support aircraft ever created by man. Fill her full of holes and she will still get you home.

    a_10_15.jpg

    a_10_07.jpg

    sam3.jpg

    sam2.jpg

    http://www.a-10.org/photos/photos2.asp

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    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
    - Jesus Christ in Luke 22:36
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    ElMuertoMonkeyElMuertoMonkey Member Posts: 12,898
    edited November -1
    gunpaq,

    Clinton wasn't the first one who wanted to get rid of them. President Bush (the elder Bush, mind you) prior to the Gulf War wanted to sell all of our A-10s to Columbia, Argentina, and Brazil.

    And while we're giving credit where credit is due, Carter (yes, a DEMOCRAT) was responsible for procuring the A-10 from Fairchild-Republic. The program that turned out this now-famous plane was under-budget (that's right... under) and on-time. How's that for a free-spending, big-government liberal?
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    mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 24,456 ******
    edited November -1
    Monkey hit it right, the Bush Administration did want to axe the A-10. Of course when the A-10 platform was brought into service its sole purpose in life was to destroy the tanks and armored vehicles of the Warsaw Pact. By 1990 that mission had vanished along with the "Evil Empire" (and it was indeed evil). No one saw any further use for the A-10 since no one envisioned a ground conflict against a hostile force with enough armor to make the A-10 a viable weapons system in U.S. military inventory. Saddam proved the "experts" wrong on that count.

    Ryan, while it is true that there are many other metals much denser than steel (like lead) most of these make poor penetrators. During WWII the Germans fielded an outstanding anti tank gun which used the Gerlich/Hable "taper bore" principal (a fasinating series of firearms)which at its peak of developement took a 75mm shell and "squeezed" it down to 55mm using a 5.5 pound tungsten-carbide penetrator (tungsten is about 3 times heavier than steel). The velocity was around 4000fps and it could destroy any tank in existence. Unfortunitly for the Germans, tungsten is not a native German resource and all supplies had to be imported at great cost. Tungsten was also vital for use in machine tools and there was simply not enough to go around for use in ammunition and these guns feel silent. Bad news for German anti tank units, but OUTSTANDING news for Russian tankers!

    The advantage depleted uranium has is that it is not a critical material like tungsten. Depleted uranium is a waste product of the entire uranuim refining process and the metal exists in government inventories in what is called "green salt" (UF-4). This "green salt" is not a critical war material, sits around doing nothing but taking up warehouse space, and is pretty much available for the asking by Uncle Sam, so depleted uranium was a win-win from the start. The Air Force has two suppliers for these depleted uranium shells: Honeywell and Autojet Ordnance Company and those 30mm jewels are very bad news for anyone in a tank.

    Mark T. Christian
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    ElMuertoMonkeyElMuertoMonkey Member Posts: 12,898
    edited November -1
    I heard someone in the Air Force say once that the only effective armor against the A-10's Avenger cannon is not getting hit by it.
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    bambihunterbambihunter Member Posts: 10,685 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mark Christian, that was a great explaination... I had no idea what the "depleted" part meant, I was wondering if it was radioactive, but it doesn't sound like it would.

    I always like reading your posts, you seem to have a very deep knowledge (or at least a very good reference ability and the references to go with it) of most gun related topics plus you seem to be well-travelled also.
    Most educational types have no working knowledge, most hands-on types (that's what I am), have little knowledge of the background information on stuff.
    Keep postin' and I'll keep readin'! [:)]
    Fanatic collector of the 10mm auto.
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    kingjoeykingjoey Member Posts: 8,636
    edited November -1
    The DU has a density of around 2.5x that of lead. It gives the round a very high sectional density and requires A LOT of material/armor to stop that 30mm freight train. I know that as of the early-90's there wasn't any armored vehicles in US or Soviet inventories that the GAU-8 gun wouldn't rip through with a vengeance.

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    SUPPORT THE I.N.S. , THE COUNTRY THEY SAVE COULD BE YOUR OWN
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    bambihunterbambihunter Member Posts: 10,685 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Man, what a topic this turned out to be... I kinda figured it might go unanswered.
    I sure love that gun!
    Fanatic collector of the 10mm auto.
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    Night StalkerNight Stalker Member Posts: 11,967
    edited November -1
    ... and it sure "loves" the enemy.

    NSDQ!

    "Nobody dislikes war more than warriors, but we value the causes of peace so highly that we will not duck a war in an effort to get a lasting peace." -General Daniel "Chappie" James
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