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ok 5.56mm belivers

Da-TankDa-Tank Member Posts: 3,718 ✭✭
edited May 2006 in General Discussion
the FMJ .224 bullet has a muzzle vol. of 2900 ft. per sec. and a 18.67 ft.lb. per gr. = 55 gr times 18.65 or 1025.75 ft lb muzzle vol.
Now at 500 yards this has droped to less then 391 ft lbs.
I know the gov. and you want us to believe this will penatrate a steel pot at this range. IT will NOT. Also the vol. has droped below 750 feet per sec. any puff of wind or rise and fall in the land scape will effect your ability to even scare the target.

Comments

  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Da-Tank
    I know the gov. and you want us to believe this will penatrate a steel pot at this range.

    No, but it will penetrate a ghutra. Besides, nobody wears a steel pot any more and there's only like three guys in the whole Army who can hit anything at 500 yards anyway.
  • guntech59guntech59 Member Posts: 23,188 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    NOBODY shoots at a target at 500 yards with their M16/M4. That's what ARTILLERY is for!
  • hughbetchahughbetcha Member Posts: 7,801 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The bullet designed to penetrate a steel helmet(I think maybe the Russians still use steel helmets) at ranges up to 600 yards is the SS109 62gr. bullet with a tungstun steel core.
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,520 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well first of all your ballistics are off. According to a Remington table I have a 55gr. 223 only has around 200#pounds of energy at 500 yd. this would be out of a 24" barrel not a 16" carbine. Decreased velocity out of a shorter barrel would decrease foot pds of energy accordingly.. A .22 LR has 140 ft. #'s at the muzzle.
  • gap1916gap1916 Member Posts: 4,977
    edited November -1
    The United States Marine Corp shoots at 500 yards. My 2 cents [8D]
  • HappyNanoqHappyNanoq Member Posts: 12,023
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by gap1916
    The United States Marine Corp shoots at 500 yards. My 2 cents [8D]


    Yeah well.. but the marine core uses so many shots that the enemy actually just stumbles on the projectiles and breaks their necks...
  • spanielsellsspanielsells Member Posts: 12,498
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by DancesWithSheep
    Besides, nobody wears a steel pot any more and there's only like three guys in the whole Army who can hit anything at 500 yards anyway.

    Joxer the Mighty
    Roams through the countryside
    He doesn't have a place to hide...
  • Ray BRay B Member Posts: 11,822
    edited November -1
    Congratulations!!! you have finally figured out what everyone else has known for years, that is, the 5.56 is not designed for the primary purpose of shooting the enemy at 500 yards. For shooting at such ranges the military uses various .308 cartridges and sturdier platforms than the M16/4. Now if you'll show us how it compares to other cartridges for it's primary use, that being to engage targets at less than 200 yards, I won't be inclined to call you a name like predetermined.
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,520 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Actually on a 180gr .308 it has the same energy at 400 yd. the .223 does at the muzzle.
  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by select-fire
    Actually on a 180gr .308 it has the same energy at 400 yd. the .223 does at the muzzle.

    Actually, this is completely irrelvant.
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,520 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by DancesWithSheep
    quote:Originally posted by select-fire
    Actually on a 180gr .308 it has the same energy at 400 yd. the .223 does at the muzzle.

    Actually, this is completely irrelvant.


    Actually I don't care what you think.
  • Red223Red223 Member Posts: 7,946
    edited November -1
    Just switch to China's 5.8mm:

    GAmod_080105I.jpg

    3,031 fps muzzle velocity and effective range of 880 yards.


    http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/mk262_080105/index2.html
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,520 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Red, I looked at the 6.8 mm our government is considering. Wow , it gets up and goes. I shoot a 6mm Remington and I know what it is capable of.
  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by select-fire
    Red, I looked at the 6.8 mm our government is considering.
    Look again. "Our government" ain't considering anything.
  • hughbetchahughbetcha Member Posts: 7,801 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by DancesWithSheep
    quote:Originally posted by select-fire
    Red, I looked at the 6.8 mm our government is considering.
    Look again. "Our government" ain't considering anything.


    Probably too busy stealing our liberties...
  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by hughbetcha
    Probably too busy stealing our liberties...

    At least it found a niche. It sure ain't intelligence, security or immigration reform.
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,520 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I heared they were considering buying Mexico so all this argueing would stop [:o)]
  • guntech59guntech59 Member Posts: 23,188 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by gap1916
    The United States Marine Corp shoots at 500 yards. My 2 cents [8D]


    If they do it in a combat situation they are just pissin' in the wind! Might be good practice at the range but they are just wasting ammo in the real world unless it's a "PERFECT SHOT" scenario.
  • Da-TankDa-Tank Member Posts: 3,718 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bushmaster,, My mistake the military 5.56 round is FMJ. @ 500 yards the vol. is 1572 and the energy foot pounds is 301.95.

    My mistake was in in figuring the coefficienty. It it .189
    With a sectional density of .157
  • MossbergboogieMossbergboogie Member Posts: 12,211
    edited November -1
    well poop this happens about every mounth around here. now doesnt it.
    5.56 is a good round. I like to shot it and i am sure that everyone can agree it is a good round to shoot all day. 391ft lbs at 500 yds huh It only takes somthing like 23 ft lbs to puncture human skin but there are a lot of prarie dogs that would like to see the 5.56 again.
  • Da-TankDa-Tank Member Posts: 3,718 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Select fire,, the military round FMJ vol. @ 400 yards iss 2245.
    The 5.56 muzzle vol. is eratic 3100-3300 do to the fact that all ammo is not loaded at the same armory. If people want to compare mil. weapons then use mil. ammo. Also mil. weight bullets.
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,520 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Remington 55gr soft point is as follows 3240 muzzle velocity 1272 feet per second at 500 yd. Muzzle energy is 1282 foot pounds and at 500yd it is 198 foot pounds. I don't think your data is correct at 391 foot pounds at 500yd. The .223 can't be loaded that hot. Mine is out of a 24" barrel also. A puny 16" barrel will do less.
  • Ray BRay B Member Posts: 11,822
    edited November -1
    I'm still waiting for an effectiveness comparison for the 5.56 at ranges less than 200 yards. Comparing it to cartridges better suited to 500 yards makes no more sense than to compare the 45 ACP to a .308 at 500 yards. Each cartridge is a compromise and the choice depends on what qualities are most important for the expected circumstances.
  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Ray B
    I'm still waiting for an effectiveness comparison for the 5.56 at ranges less than 200 yards. Comparing it to cartridges better suited to 500 yards makes no more sense than to compare the 45 ACP to a .308 at 500 yards. Each cartridge is a compromise and the choice depends on what qualities are most important for the expected circumstances.

    Ray, your clear thinking and relevance saddens me greatly. What are you doing on this board?
  • Horse Plains DrifterHorse Plains Drifter Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 40,224 ***** Forums Admin
    edited November -1
    The 5.56 is a pea slinger. Nothing more.
  • Ray BRay B Member Posts: 11,822
    edited November -1
    DWS- You're right, you can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her a lady.
  • RugersforMeRugersforMe Member Posts: 25 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The .223 Remington was meant to engage targets out to 300 meters, not 500 yards!! I had three uncles that saw combat in Vietnam and they said beyond 300 meters one is "hoping to hit" the enemy.
    The truth be told though, they all said at the first chance they "slung" the M-16 and picked up the AK-47's from the dead enemy and used them.
  • 11b6r11b6r Member Posts: 16,584 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    OK- get the flames stoked up, boys! Yes, it is a fast, light bullet. Yes, light bullets drop energy over distance quicker than heavier bullets. But I have made a shot with an M-16 from bipod at 550 meters- and yes, it was ideal circumstances, bright light, exact distance to target plotted, target skylighted, and moving directly towards me, no wind, level shot. One round. Would I want to use the 5.56 for this for EVERY shot at that range? NO WAY!
  • Da-TankDa-Tank Member Posts: 3,718 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ray B,, Muzzle for the .223 cal. 55 gr. FMJ is 2900 Zeroed at 100 yards. It has a 481 ft. lb. at 200 yds., Also a 2.7 inch drop. then at 250 yds it has a 7.6 inch drop.

    Muzzle for the .308 cal. 168 gr. FMJ is 3000 Zeroed at 100 yards
    it has a 2489.95 ft.lb. at 200 yards, also at 200 yds it has a 2.9 inch drop and at 250 yds it has a 7 inch drop.
  • mrseatlemrseatle Member Posts: 15,467 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    In the future, foot soldiers are gonna need more power!

    4004_4050532634.jpg
  • HappyNanoqHappyNanoq Member Posts: 12,023
    edited November -1
    I have a few friends who went to Iraq, 4 friends to be exact. (one of which.. did not come home alive)

    Yup - most doesn't quite know it, but little ol' Denmark is there - mainly backup operations and peacekeeping duties, but some have been sent as sharpshooters. Two of the four friends went as sharpshooters - it was one of those that didn't make it.


    But from those friends, I've heard a few stories...

    Since Denmark doesn't have the money or equipment that the 'mericans have - some Danes have been sent out with the old beltfed LMG (Light Machine Gun) designated M62 (in Dk anyhoo) and the M75 (HK G3 in various configurations)

    They sometimes saw, that when you 'mericans shot in the iraquis direction with the puny 5.56-too-small - the iraquis still popped up for a go at extended ranges, which was anything from 300-1000 metres.

    A short burst from the good ol' 7.62Nato LMG beltfed.. and they kept down or relocated.
    They said they sometimes saw less action when the LMG was visible or the danish flag was on the vehicles - so they must have known danes use real bullets.


    I think that gives a good insight at what the enemy thinks of the two calibers.

    With 5.56 you got a chance - 7.62.. better duck down.


    I think that's 'nuff said - at least from my friends and my own opinion of the two calibers (personal experience is strictly hunting and targetting though)
  • Ray BRay B Member Posts: 11,822
    edited November -1
    Da-Tank, I'm not saying that the ballistics of the 7.62 are not superior to those of the 5.56 at any range. However, if superior ballistics were all there was to the equation of cartridge selection, then equip the military with .50BMGs and be done with it. The choice of the 5.56 is based on the probability of contact being within 200 yards, controlled subsequent fire, and double the number of rounds per amount of weight. When those characteristics are considered, then the effectiveness of the 5.56 over the 7.62 is readily apparent.
  • 11BravoCrunchie11BravoCrunchie Member Posts: 33,423 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'd carry my M1A over my piece of crap M16A2 any day, even if it weighs 18 lbs. My 16 with all the crap that I had to throw on it doesn't weigh much less. What good is a rifle that isn't even worth anything past 300 meters?

    I say the Army needs to convince Springfield to make a select fire version of the SOCOM 16 and issue that to troops. I'd rather have a battle rifle over an assult rifle any day.
  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Zulu7
    What good is a rifle that isn't even worth anything past 300 meters?

    I don't think it's the rifle, Zulu; it's the skin consistency of Muslims. Lots of Vietnamese had their tickets cancelled by an M16 at 300 yards and further. That's the only thing I can figure: The skin consistency difference between races. Must be an hereditary thing, or maybe a diet thing.
  • MVPMVP Member Posts: 23,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I had to look at the author a second time to make sure it wasn't acyman/rickky3/cloop[:o)]
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