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I Dislike the Police When They Show Up At A.....

tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
edited February 2004 in General Discussion
I have a dislike for the police when the top cops show up at a press conference or a government hearing regarding a proposed new law and they are in their full uniform and probably considered to be "on duty" by their home department.And they then, in their offical capacity, proceed to actually verbally lobby against a new concealed carry law or lobby for more restrictive laws against citizens owning guns. This actually happened as recently (happens all the time across the USA)as Wed. 2-18-04 in Topeka KS where the state government is conducting hearings regarding a concealed carry bill introduced by Leavenworth Democrat (yeah, a Democrat, can you belileve it) to FINALLY give KS citizens the right they should have been given years ago, the right of concealed carry. Lt. Col. R. Keith Faddis of the Overland Park, KS, police dept. was there and provided evidence against the bill. Among other comments were that "more guns on the street would cause more crime and injury". Of course they conviently forgets that there is a tremendous difference betweens criminals carrying guns "on the street" (man I hate that anti-gun phrase) and peaceful, lawful citizens carrying guns.

I disagree with such actions by the police, especially the high ranking officers close to the chief, in that a great many KS citizens WANT concealed carry. And some of those citizens pay that police officer's salary and work to pay the taxes to pay for the operation of his department. So why does this employee of the citizens give himself the right to go to a ahearing and try to stop a bill from being passed that many of his "employers" WANT passed? And while he is betraying those citizens all the time he is weaaring a uniform paid for by the citizens, wearing a gun paid for by the citizens and projecting authority HE WOULD NOT HAVE IF THE CITIZENS HAD NOT GIVEN IT TO HIM! Now I am not saying that police officer could not go to the hearing in plain clothes and stand up and identify himself and state his personal opinion.

But isn't his actions kind of like if my wife and I owned a restaurant and we hired a manager to run it for us and one day I decided I wanted to sell liquor at our restaurant. But some of the neighbors complained about my idea and the city schedules a hearing about whether or not to issue a liquor permit. And at that hearing our restaurant manager shows up with my wife with him, and him in his restaurant manager uniform my wife and I provided for him and he testifys AGAINST my wanting a liquor license? Wouldn't his actions be that of an employee betraying one of his employers? And wouldn't the proper choice of actions of the police Lt.Col. and my restaurant manager be to remain silent and netural and which ever way the law goes, work and continue doing their job under the new law?

Quote "When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions."
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Comments

  • FrOgFrOg Member Posts: 2,034 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Don't know how relevant it is, but I cannot go on TV in my uniform and support a political issue. The reason is that I cannot speak for the US Government.

    I don't think a police officer of any rank is authorized to support a political issue either. His position is not political although he was elected in a political manner.

    May be wrong but that's my 2 cents.

    Frog

    divemed1sm.jpg

    GO NAVY, BEAT ARMY
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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Frog, it is done all the time, everywhere. Remember all the city, county and state police grouped behind Clinton as he signed the so-called-assualt weapons ban? BTW, thanks for reading and replying to my post. I tried to keep it short but couldn't.

    Quote "When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions."
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  • Colt SuperColt Super Member Posts: 31,007 ✭
    edited November -1
    WOW!!! What a surprise.

    God Bless America and...
    NEVER Forget WACO
    NEVER, EVER Forget 911
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  • FrOgFrOg Member Posts: 2,034 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I agree that it happens all the time. I think, nevertheless, that it is an abuse of their position and should not be allowed, just like in the military.

    Frog

    divemed1sm.jpg

    GO NAVY, BEAT ARMY
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  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    TR;
    May I shed a little light on this subject ? The sh***eads that run the departments are political appointee's,by and large..they do what their political gasbag wants them to do.

    The ordinary officers that stand behind the shi***head are there because they are ordered to be there..and will lose their jobs if they refuse.

    Not ALL cases..but enough 'street officers' understand the Second Amendment to cause me to believe that they are decent people,doing what they can ,whenever they can...
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  • spasmcreekspasmcreek Member Posts: 37,717 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    welcome to kansas...think we are a little behind the times...try getting a leo or judge to protect your private property rights too....
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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Bigtire, I live in Olathe, not Overland Park, but I will bet you money that the mayor of Overland park is more anti-gun (for citizens) than that police chief.

    And hey everyone, I did not just wake up and discover this practice, it has been going on for years. My question is why do we allow our "employees" to lobby on our time and using our equipment to try and derail laws that we, the "employers" want to pass? How and when did the top cops start to think that such harmful behavior towards some of their "employers" was honest and ethical? And how do we stop this behavior?

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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  • daddodaddo Member Posts: 3,408
    edited November -1
    I argue with my sister (the police officer) all the time about guns. She wants more laws and restrictions,I of course the opposite. I quess she's the one out there seeing all the bad things people do with guns and forgets the other part of the real world of the law abiding. I can see her point of view, I wish she'd see mine.[:(!]
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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Daddo, I understand you situation with your police sister because I have a similar situation with my elderly retired LEO father. But you might mention to your sister, as I did with my father, that if more and more laws and restrictions actually worked, there would have been a need to only have made one law at the very start. And that law is "It is illegal to do bad things to innocent people". If criminals actually obey laws, instead of living outside any law they want to break, that is the only law that would have ever been needed. The fact that the government keeps piling laws on top of more laws is obvious proof that only the lawful citizen obeys laws to begin with. I dooubt the criminal checks what laws might apply to the criminal behavior he/she has planned for the evening.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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  • 3gunner3gunner Member Posts: 489 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would tend to agree with Bigtire. A few calls to the city officials is certainly in order. What right does a Police Chief have to lobby the legislature. It is a shame that an agency head would give LEO's in general a bad rap. Most uniformed street LEO's have no problem with law abiding citizens carrying concealed. I bet you 20 to 30 calls to the city managers office would put a halt to his political lobbying. What do ya think. Some body post the phone number, I'll call.
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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Here ya' go threegunner: Overland park Ks city manager (all 913 area code) 895-6102 and 03, City council 895-6105, Mayor 895-6104, Police Dept. 895-6000. If you find time to call it would be interesting if you would post the results.

    Hey everybody! What I described at the start of this thread is happening EVERYWHERE! You may not see it on a city or county level, but I almost guarantee you it has happend in your state. And it happens on a federal level although perhaps not as high profile.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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  • 3gunner3gunner Member Posts: 489 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks Foxy,

    I have recorded the phone numbers and will make the calls Monday morning. I will post what replies I get.

    I also challenge everyone else to do the same. We are much stronger as a unit than as a single person. Fox, if you have any more detailed info. please post it. Like the Chiefs name....
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  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Not unlike when actors and musicians take advantage of their celebrity status to go on Leno to voice their points of view, the idea being that if you respect their art you should also respect their opinion. The only difference with police officers is that we the people are footing the bill for them to use their badge for political reasons.
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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    threegunner: I just rechecked the newspaper article and I have to amend the info I gave out. I guess I was having a "senior" moment and I apologize for any incorrect info. The high ranking police officer wasn't the overland park chief, it was Lt. Col. R. Keith Faddis who I assume is just under the chief.

    Any interested person can look at this bill online at http:www.kslegislature.org/cgi-bin/bills/index.cgi

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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  • 3gunner3gunner Member Posts: 489 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Police Chief, Lt. Col., Major, Capt., Sgt., it don't matter. Still the same principal. A call will be made. Thanks for the update.
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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    your welcome. Goodluck.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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  • bigdaddyjuniorbigdaddyjunior Member Posts: 11,233
    edited November -1
    I've been looking over the statistical information on the FBI site relating to police officers killed in this country. It may be an anomoly, but the areas where CCW is a must issue permit, the police death rates have been going down around 30%/year. The areas where it is near impossible to get a carry permit - New York,California, Illinois account for the vast majority of police deaths by gun. So it appears that when a police cheif comes out against citizen carry rights he is actually for more dead police. I wonder if they even read their own stats or the compilation put out by the FBI. Probably not when rumor and faulty logic will suffice without all that reading.

    040103cowboy_shooting_one_gun_md_clr_prv.gifBig Daddy my heros have always been cowboys,they still are it seems
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  • njretcopnjretcop Member Posts: 7,975
    edited November -1
    I rarely get involved in these discussions, but in this case I will make an exception. The reason is that some people are confusing the words "lobbying" and "testifing."

    When one lobbies another person for a cause, they wine and dine them, and promise them things in return for a vote or favor of some kind.

    When one testifies before a committee, they are there to give their opinion on a given subject of which they have some experience.

    I DO NOT AGREE WITH ANY POLICE OFFICAL, OR ANY OTHER PERSON, LOBBYING OR TESTIFING AGAINST THE SECOND AMENDMENT.

    There are however, many communites here in the Unites States where top police officals are appointed by politicians. BAD, VERY BAD!

    In NJ, for the most part, all police officers are civil service employees and cannot be removed by politicians. A much better system!

    It is my personal experience and you may believe it or not, but MOST police officers are in favor of the Second Amendment, yes, even NJ police!


    vic.jpg

    Charlie

    "It's the stuff dreams are made of Angel"NRA Certified Firearms InstructorMember: GOA, RKBA, NJSPBA, NJ area rep for the 2ndAMPD. njretcop@copmail.com
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  • paboogerpabooger Member Posts: 13,953
    edited November -1
    Give em hell Charlie!!!![:D]

    pa.gif

    Rixford.gif

    Kids that fish, hunt and trap have never mugged any old ladies!


    To Ride, shoot straight,and speak the truth
    This was the Ancient law of Youth
    Old times are past, old times are done:
    But the Law runs true, O little son!
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  • trstonetrstone Member Posts: 833 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Frankly, I don't think the cops---from the chief of police on down---have ANY business lobbying or testifying or voicing ANY opinion on concealed-carry laws. They're employees that WE, THE PEOPLE allegedly allow to carry firearms in their line of work--a service for which WE, THE PEOPLE pay for through taxes. So if WE, THE PEOPLE wish to carry concealed weapons and the cops don't like it: TOUGH. If the idea of law-abiding citizens exercising their Second Amendment rights makes them nervous, then the poor little darlings need to find another line of work more suited to their fragile temperaments. The Framers of the Constituition didn't write the damned thing to make the lives and jobs of the cops and Feds stress-free at the expense of the rest of society. And the sad fact that we even tolerate having to jump through hoops and sign forms and do this and do that to carry concealed, effectively begging Caresar's permission to have and carry a weapon instead of simply saying "No, I'm NOT going to put up with any of your licensing nonsense", shows just how far we've slipped in this country in maintaining our rights.

    Now we settle for having our damned employees telling US that THEY don't think we should be allowed to carry weapons, like they even have a right to say such a thing in the first place....Amazing...
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  • njretcopnjretcop Member Posts: 7,975
    edited November -1
    I cannot agree more.........


    vic.jpg

    Charlie

    "It's the stuff dreams are made of Angel"NRA Certified Firearms InstructorMember: GOA, RKBA, NJSPBA, NJ area rep for the 2ndAMPD. njretcop@copmail.com
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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Thanks bigtire for taking the time to provide us with that most interresting info. I unfortuently didn't correct my info posted here fast enough to help you, but actually instead of the police chief it was Lt. Col. R. Keith Faddis whom I assume is directly under the police chief of Overland Park, KS. But as 3gunner mentioned, it really doesn't matter because even a police sergeant should not have the right to "lobby" or testify against a proposed law that many of the taxpaying citizens are in favor of.

    But again, this haappens all the time. Sometimes it is not so public. Have any of you in states or cities that have a anti-gun, anti-self defense newspaper ever read some of the editorials in which the newspaper is editorializing against guns or gun rights? When ever possible that newspaper writer will mention how different police agencies (city, county, state or federal) have spoken against citizen gun rights? I think even that is a misuse of the position of the police. I think the police should remain neutral, in regards to their official capactity, on proposed laws whether those laws are gun law or even seat belt laws. The citizens did not "hire" the police to lobby or testify against laws they personally don't like. But look around you and I think you will find that it happens a lot.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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  • A J ChristA J Christ Member Posts: 7,534 ✭
    edited November -1
    That resturaunt manager would have found his employment stayus to have changed when he came in to work the next day. No quesions asked, no explanations accepted. You folks in Kansas, it election year, tell them, those sitting in those ivory towers and then do something about it. Register to vote, not guns! Call them and tell them they way it is, write to them and then also write letters to the editor of the local newpaper. Just do something and god luck with it.
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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    way to go bigtire and thanks! if Councilman Neil Sader wants to get more guns off the street he could quickly do so by requireing the off-duty police officers to leave their guns at the station. Not only would there be less guns on the street but the children of those police officers would no longer be "threatened" by the department "forcing" that officer to bring his/her gun home.

    Besides if we common, unwashed, "irresponsible" citizens have to rely on the on-duty police for help and protection, why isn't that same protection good enough for the off-duty police officers?

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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  • 3gunner3gunner Member Posts: 489 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Instead of the phone call I am going to use email. That way I can get my point across uninterrupted. I will copy this email to the mayor and all city council members.

    Anyone else that would like to do the same can find all the info needed at the following link:

    http://www.opkansas.org/_Gov/Mayor_&_Council/council_directory.cfm
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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    3gunner; because I admire the enthusiam of you and bigtire, I accessed the OP city web page and clicked on the link to send an e-mail to the mayor and to the councilman Sader. But when the e-mail form page popped up, the address showed a whole lot of numbers with with "%" signs and of course the e-mail would not send.

    OK, OK, I got it to send. I just realized you had to remember the e-mail address of Sader and then delete all those numbers and "%" signs and actually type in the correct address. It got sent. One to the mayor and one to councilman Sader.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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  • nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,061 ******
    edited November -1
    Police chiefs and sheriffs, unless they are in real small agencies, ARE NOT COPS!

    SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com the best gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net
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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Originally posted by bigtire
    This is the actual testimony of Lt. Col. Faddis. You can see it's the same old BS.


    Mr. Bill Mason
    House Committee on Federal
    And State Affairs





    A review of the years 1993 to 2002 revealed significant facts:
    636 officers were killed, not including the 72 who died at the World Trade Center
    591 were killed with firearms.
    443 were killed with handguns
    136 were killed with their own weapons

    The FBI also compiled statistics on the individuals who were arrested for killing those officers. During the same time period, 1993 to 2002:
    785 known assailants were arrested
    528 (67%) of those arrested had a prior criminal arrest
    373 (47%) of those arrested had a prior criminal conviction

    Using the standard of conviction for the basis of denying a license, 412 (52%) individuals who were arrested for killing a police officer would have been able to obtain a concealed carry license in this state if this legislation were passed.
    it is an insult for this Lt. Col. to imply that such criminal conduct has any connection to lawful citizens who want to legally carry a firearm.

    The proposed legislation places limited restrictions on carrying a weapon in an establishment that serves alcohol. The restriction states that one cannot carry in the portion of the establishment that predominantly serves alcohol. If I read that correctly, one would be prohibited from carrying a concealed weapon in the bar area but could be armed in the dining section of the restaurant. Most restaurants that are licensed as a drinking establishment allow you to order and consume alcoholic beverages at the table that is not in the bar area.
    The policies of the Overland Park Police Department prohibit officers from consuming intoxicating beverages while carrying a firearm.
    So what's the big deal here? Just make it illegal to carry while intoxicate, just as with DUI.

    Costs

    There would be costs associated with this legislation that would not be covered by the fees. It is anticipated that courts and other municipal facilities would find it necessary to install metal detection equipment. Walk through metal detectors can cost $5,500 each and handheld units $230 each. The greatest cost would be in personnel to staff those locations that utilize metal detectors. Two officers, at a cost of $36,000 each, would be needed at each location where a metal detector is installed.
    all this just to start a program to check on lawful concealed carry holders? Why aren't they checking on the criminal element now?

    The legislation calls for the concealed carry license to be associated with the Kansas driver's license or Kansas ID card system. What type of costs would be incurred by the KBI to maintain this portion of the system?
    Yeah, like there aren't costs associated with each and every new law?

    Training
    disarmed and killed, what level of training should be expected for the average citizen? To be able to identify a threat, determine a course of action, and take action requires a tremendous amount of training. In addition to the training it is necessary to have the mindset that you may need to defend yourself without warning.
    Yeah, like a woman going to her car and being attacked by a rapist is to "untrained" to realize that now is the time to point her gun and if necessary shoot

    Practical application

    A bank in Overland Park already has posted signs at the entrance stating that firearms are prohibited. It is likely that a large number of businesses would post such signs. If that were the case, a person who was licensed to carry concealed could leave their residence, drive to the store, and find that weapons were prohibited. They would then have three options. Do not go into the store at all, go into the store anyway in violation of the prohibition, or leave their weapon in their vehicle. Last year in Overland Park there were 768 auto burglaries, over 250 occurred in commercial parking lots.
    sounds llike a crime wave to me. The lawful citizens need to be armed! And in regards to the CCW holder having to place his gun in his car because of a store "no guns" sign, that merely proves the safest place for the CCW holder's gun is in his holster

    The legislation also allows for reciprocal agreements with other states that allow concealed carry. How would a Kansas law enforcement officer be able to verify the validity of the out-of-state license?
    The bill states that a person who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon must carry the license with them and produce it upon demand by a law enforcement officer. That means the officer must be within close proximity to the person. Of the 51 law enforcement officers killed in 2002, 25 were within 5 feet of the assailant.
    The police seem tdo be able to check driver licenses and car license plates with no problems

    If you believe that HB 2798 would make Kansas safer for its citizens, I would ask that you consider those who have sworn "to serve and protect" all of the citizens of the State. This bill would not automatically make Kansas safer. It will make the duties of a law enforcement officer more difficult and more dangerous.
    Yeah, all because the KS citizens finally get to enjoy their US AND KS constitutional rights

    The City of Overland Park requests that you not support HB 2798 favorably for passage.

    Thank you for your consideration.

    Lt. Colonel R. Keith Faddis
    Overland Park Police Department



    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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  • 3gunner3gunner Member Posts: 489 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Emails have been sent. No replies as of yet.
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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    I sent an e-mail to the mayor (no respsonse yet) and to one of the councilman (Sader) and he politely logged my opposition to his position (his=anti-CCW) but he wouldn't go into anymore detail unless I told him my name and addrress in case I did not live in his city/district.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Provide me the name and email of the individual that compiled those stats regarding law enforcement officer deaths. I got a piece of statistical pie to feed them myself. We can play "stat games" all day long. Apparently none of them know that an armed citizen, statistically, hits his target more often then an armed police officer. Officers missing their targets more often than armed civilians pose a greater threat to public safety in my opinion.
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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    idsman75: the only info I know of that might get you what you want is the police officer that provided that anti-ccw testemony. He is Lt. Col. Faddis of the Overland Park, KS police dept. (913) 895-6000. Don't know if this is of any help to you.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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  • 3gunner3gunner Member Posts: 489 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Lt. Col. Faddis took that information straight from the FBI's web site. Of course he put his own spin on things.

    The stats are actually as follows:

    1993 - 2002

    Profile of known assailants criminal history that feloniously killed LEO's. (Keep in mind these stats only include information where the assailants are known)

    785 Officers killed
    528 of their known assailants had prior criminal arrest.
    373 of their known assailants had prior criminal convictions.
    67 of their known assailants had prior juvenile convictions.
    287 of their known assailants had received parole or probation on prior criminal convictions.

    What about the criminal past of those assailants that have avoided apprehension. Do they have a criminal past? Who knows. Apparently Faddis thinks he does since he has quoted exact percentages. All of those assailants with a criminal past would not have had a CCW anyway.

    Another interesting stat from the FBI is that out of 636 LEO's killed by the use of a weapon only 136 known assailants used their own weapons. 346 assailants did not use or attempt to use their own weapons.
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  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    quote:nunn Posted - 02/23/2004 : 5:57:30 PM
    Police chiefs and sheriffs, unless they are in real small agencies, ARE NOT COPS!

    This,Sir Nunn...is an epiphany.
    And a resounding...." OF COURSE.." !! Truth rings like a bell...

    Political parisites....
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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    3gunner: thanks for that most informative post. I would love to print your post, roll it up into a tube and stick it up that Lt. Col's ....ah...nose!

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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  • 96harley96harley Member Posts: 3,992 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    [blue]Here's one who knows how low politics will stoop and one who has felt the lash of the politician's whip for his unwillingness to bend to politcal correctness. I have taken a stand against sodomite marriage, protested abortion, supported the Ten Commandmants and a United States held together by belief in one supreme God. Last but not least I support the private ownership of firearms. I also speak publicly regarding the right to carry a firearm for protection as a right and not a privilage granted by the state. I do this in and out of uniform. The mayor is also pro gun. He and I disagree at times and he knows I am a public servant and not a public slave. I therefore am free to speak my peace. It's his pleasure to take me out of my position at any time but he is a man who honors loyalty, truth, and friendship. Guess that's what's nice about this town even though some call it a redneck small minded little town. And to those I say, "Stay in your big crime ridden cities but don't move in here with your big city ways and expect us to change for you."

    "Save the Whalers, they need jobs too."
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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    96Harley: sounds like you have got yourself a nice little town and mayor.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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  • 96harley96harley Member Posts: 3,992 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Tr fox,
    It ain't Heaven and has it's problems. It's typical small town America. There are still a lot of those around and you don't hear much about them because they take care of themselves, mind their own business, and are full of kind hearted people. When the media does do a story on these type communities they do so in the fashion of a hungry lion with the scent of blood in his nostrils.

    "Save the Whalers, they need jobs too."
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  • trstonetrstone Member Posts: 833 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Partial quote:

    "Apparently none of them know that an armed citizen, statistically, hits his target more often then an armed police officer."

    Idsman, do you have a source for this? I've been dying to see the figures on cop vs. armed citizen "mistakes". And if you would, please---post us the numbers!
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  • 3gunner3gunner Member Posts: 489 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'll probably get blasted by some for this post, but what the *...

    Statisticly speaking, I don't have any numbers or percentages of accuracy for cops vs. citizens. I don't think anyone would. But based on many years of competition tactical shooting sports I have formed my own opinion and noted my observations.

    A large percentage of LEO's (I'm not implying all)possess a firearm solely because they were issued one at their swearing in. They will shoot that firearm during their mandated training and qualification schedules. Other than that, the weapon spends most of it's life quietly resting in a class III security holster. Those types of LEO's don't possess the love or passion of shooting sports, therefore, their practice time is very limited.

    On the other hand, the citizen possesses a firearm solely because he/she enjoys them and the recreational sports that go along with them. The citizen handed over his hard earned money for that weapon. The average citizen probably logs a considerable amount of more practice time than some of the LEO's. Alot of citizens that possess a high level of interest for firearms usually know their guns inside and out and can answer any question about their gun including the caliber, load data, manufacturer, etc. They are dang good with their guns because they love their guns and use them on a regular bases.

    So, cop vs. citizen.... based on my personal knowledge I can make the following statement:

    If I was being held hostage by an armed thug in my home, and I could select a five member rescue to enter my house and take a shot at the thug, the team would consist of one LEO and four citizens.
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