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Welding copper

Blade SlingerBlade Slinger Member Posts: 5,891
edited November 2008 in General Discussion
Anybody fimilar with welding copper, we have a job 1-3/4" round stock that we have found to have inclusions. I have seen most welded materials in my adventures, but this is a new one to me. I realize that brazing and silver solder may work but we need to patch or weld with pure copper.

Comments

  • Hunter MagHunter Mag Member Posts: 6,610 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Welding copper can and will be toxic. Make sure there is plenty of ventilation!!!!
  • grumpygygrumpygy Member Posts: 48,464 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I've just joined to pieces with either silver solder or simple Solder.

    But did do a search and they have this

    http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/50157854/Copper_Welding_Rod.html
  • mango tangomango tango Member Posts: 3,833 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by SLING BLADE
    Anybody fimilar with welding copper, we have a job 1-3/4" round stock that we have found to have inclusions. I have seen most welded materials in my adventures, but this is a new one to me. I realize that brazing and silver solder may work but we need to patch or weld with pure copper.


    I've worked with metal for years and have never heard of welding copper! Maybe there is some new technology that i'm not familiar with?
  • Blade SlingerBlade Slinger Member Posts: 5,891
    edited November -1
    Ive been in and around all kinds of welding, almost every application save underwater welding, but it seems it can be done? I am thinking tig is the best way to go,we have the filler metal fron the same source, but lack the preperations to make it fuse. I have blast furnices up to 1600, heat treating to 1200 degrees. I can braze and understand the process, this could be similar.
    The reason for my madness is we have been stuck with nearly $100.000 worth of bad product 1-3/4" round solid, certs were late and product is inferior, came from peru?

    quote:Originally posted by mango tango
    quote:Originally posted by SLING BLADE
    Anybody fimilar with welding copper, we have a job 1-3/4" round stock that we have found to have inclusions. I have seen most welded materials in my adventures, but this is a new one to me. I realize that brazing and silver solder may work but we need to patch or weld with pure copper.


    I've worked with metal for years and have never heard of welding copper! Maybe there is some new technology that i'm not familiar with?
  • SpartacusSpartacus Member Posts: 14,415
    edited November -1
    quote:have never heard of welding copper

    me neither!
    those copper "welding rods" are for brazing. if you try and "weld" copper with electricity (amperage) it will disintigrate before it melts.
  • LesWVaLesWVa Member Posts: 10,490 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    mango tango
    You must be way behind on the times.

    Welding copper is not much different than welding steel.

    TIG torch using bronze, brass or pure copper filler rod. The torch must be turned up hot.

    Peddle controlled TIG works much easier than a scratch start unit. "Peddle power" can control the amount of heat applied. For once it get hot enough to take the rod and weld. It does not take much to keep the bead going.

    Never did hear of any real ill effects from welding pure Copper unless it had corroded somewhat. Then it gives off fumes that will choke you very badly.

    Copper to Copper. No Problem.
    Copper to Cold rolled, Hot rolled, Stainless steel, Brass. No problem.
  • SpartacusSpartacus Member Posts: 14,415
    edited November -1
    quote:You must be way behind on the times

    I guess so!
    last time i used TIG it was only for aluminum![B)]
    tom
  • Hunter MagHunter Mag Member Posts: 6,610 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It can be done, it's been done where I work but not by me and I don't know how.
    It is very toxic and not recomended. But it can and has been done.
    If I remember I'll make a few calls tomorrow to find some info.
  • Blade SlingerBlade Slinger Member Posts: 5,891
    edited November -1
  • Hunter MagHunter Mag Member Posts: 6,610 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
  • OdawgpOdawgp Member Posts: 5,380 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by SLING BLADE
    Ive been in and around all kinds of welding, almost every application save underwater welding, Originally posted by SLING BLADE[/i]

    Your not missing out on anything, beside a very short life expectancy and a few 1000kw of enlightenment it aint worth it.

    Trust me been there done that, they couldn't pay me enough to do it again[xx(]

    Tig is how i'd do it
  • mag00mag00 Member Posts: 4,719 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would use tig, straight polarity, and helium gas shielding. Use parent metal for filler. You may be able to use argon pure, mix, but I don't really care for argon in such cases. Make sure the gas is flowing before starting the arc.

    You can mig also maybe using an argon-nitrogen mix. Not sure on polarity but would start with reverse on the mig.


    Use a good respirator, not a dust mask. Something like for painting with charcole elements.

    In the old days oxy acet would work, but boy you better be skilled.

    The mentions of inclusions has me concerned however, if they are within the rod, you may not be able to fix it.
  • 180A180A Member Posts: 828 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Have a friend that's a jeweler -- he has a laser that's used for welding.

    He welds most anything with it, bet copper could be welded too.
  • A J ChristA J Christ Member Posts: 7,534
    edited November -1
    TIG it. Use helium and copper filler rod. Wear a resperator cause the fumes are gonna be rough. 1 3/4", going to need a lot of heat.

    How bad are the inclusions, how many and how large? What effect will they have on th eperformance of the round stock? Consider selling what you have and purchasing new/good stuff.
  • joshmb1982joshmb1982 Member Posts: 8,228 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    as far as i know you cannot weld copper. you can soldier or braize 2 pieces together. but all that takes is heat. could easily be other ways i dont know about though
  • spryorspryor Member Posts: 9,155
    edited November -1
    I've watched this guy do copper work and he just used copper rod and a
    small Smith like oxy/acet torch.

    http://www.geocities.com/bobscopper/
  • tomahawktomahawk Member Posts: 11,826
    edited November -1
    gotta use a heliarc, and have copper oxidation free, high heat. oxy acetylene wont work due to pure oxygen being reintroduced. use real fine electrical wire as filler[;)]
  • SuspensionSuspension Member Posts: 4,783
    edited November -1
    I'm not familiar with welding copper, I always thought it was soldered. Do they sell copper welding wire?
  • FrancFFrancF Member Posts: 35,279 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It's not fun to do- main thing, out of all the copper alloys the base metal must be the same other wise it will crack or just blob. Wear a respirator it nasty, If you have a Pulser unit on your TiG machine like mine (Syncrowave wave 351) it will help alot

    At about 195 amps set the Pulser
    On time- 70%
    Background-35%<
    (may need to go up)
    Pulse-10/20 per second

    I will tell you unless you have to silver solder will be your better bet. I Tig weld for a living and copper can be a hit or miss if the alloys don't match.

    Forgot to add, Like Aluminum Clean, Clean, Clean, Before you start otherwise you will be doomed from the get.
  • ZebraZebra Member Posts: 5,762
    edited November -1
    I agree with LesWVa and FrancF about the GTAW process, it's used a lot on CUNI (copper nickel) pipe for Navy ship's potable water lines.
    You could also use a number 15 Sil-floss rod and a turbo torch.
  • FrancFFrancF Member Posts: 35,279 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Zebra
    I agree with LesWVa and FrancF about the GTAW process, it's used a lot on CUNI (copper nickel) pipe for Navy ship's potable water lines.
    You could also use a number 15 Sil-floss rod and a turbo torch.


    I have run into the same problems with structural bronze in a pinch (Not Silicon bronze) If the base/filler is not the same, don't even try it. Silver solder has much better integrity for bonding/filling.
  • ZebraZebra Member Posts: 5,762
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by FrancF
    quote:Originally posted by Zebra
    I agree with LesWVa and FrancF about the GTAW process, it's used a lot on CUNI (copper nickel) pipe for Navy ship's potable water lines.
    You could also use a number 15 Sil-floss rod and a turbo torch.


    I have run into the same problems with structural bronze in a pinch (Not Silicon bronze) If the base/filler is not the same, don't even try it. Silver solder has much better integrity for bonding/filling.


    I didn't know you tig welded for a living. I've recenty got back into combination pipe welding and have my ASME Sec 9/98 AWS 1104 and 601 certs. There's a huge demand right now for good pipewelders. I've recently heard that 1000's of college kids are dropping out and taking up welding due to this tough economy right now.
  • FrancFFrancF Member Posts: 35,279 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Zebra
    quote:Originally posted by FrancF
    quote:Originally posted by Zebra
    I agree with LesWVa and FrancF about the GTAW process, it's used a lot on CUNI (copper nickel) pipe for Navy ship's potable water lines.
    You could also use a number 15 Sil-floss rod and a turbo torch.


    I have run into the same problems with structural bronze in a pinch (Not Silicon bronze) If the base/filler is not the same, don't even try it. Silver solder has much better integrity for bonding/filling.


    I didn't know you tig welded for a living. I've recenty got back into combination pipe welding and have my ASME Sec 9/98 AWS 1104 and 601 certs. There's a huge demand right now for good pipewelders. I've recently heard that 1000's of college kids are dropping out and taking up welding due to this tough economy right now.


    Coming up on 28 years of it. MiG/TiG
  • victorlvlbvictorlvlb Member Posts: 5,004
    edited November -1
    I worked at a Budwiser berwery back in the 80's. They welded copper quite a bit. The mountain fires and the smog in LA kept me from welding any thing, so I never got a chance to learn how to weld copper. Back in New Mexico at a copper smellter they had a German made persipatator that had a bunch of copper that had to be welded together, again I passed on the chance to try it. I think over two hundred people busted out on the test.
  • Blade SlingerBlade Slinger Member Posts: 5,891
    edited November -1
    The inclusions range in size from quarter inch by inch peal back, it is suposed to be solid, It seems to be lamanated. The finished product is upset forged after heating to 1400 degreese, bent into candy cane shape and milled to specs. The part is used on railroad or subway hot rails for comunication or train schedules, no room for error here.
    Thanks

    quote:Originally posted by A J Christ
    TIG it. Use helium and copper filler rod. Wear a resperator cause the fumes are gonna be rough. 1 3/4", going to need a lot of heat.

    How bad are the inclusions, how many and how large? What effect will they have on th eperformance of the round stock? Consider selling what you have and purchasing new/good stuff.
  • AlpineAlpine Member Posts: 15,092 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Never welded copper.

    Steel, SS, Aluminum, Ti, Hastelloy, Inconel.

    Copper never had any properties that I could use. Besides electrical wire.
    ?The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.?
    Margaret Thatcher

    "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
    Mark Twain
  • mag00mag00 Member Posts: 4,719 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hey welders, something I suggest to you is to do some chelation therapy to remove the heavy metals from your system. Beer and milk just aint enough.

    Awhile back I got a notice of class action from some lawfirm that was going to sue welding rod manufacturers. I guess word is out the fumes are harmful.

    I did a partial chelation therapy instead, and felt worlds better and sharper. Probably should do it again, but after I get the rest of the lead out of my teeth.
    I left the door open guys
  • A J ChristA J Christ Member Posts: 7,534
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by SLING BLADE

    The inclusions range in size from quarter inch by inch peal back, it is suposed to be solid, It seems to be lamanated. The finished product is upset forged after heating to 1400 degreese, bent into candy cane shape and milled to specs. The part is used on railroad or subway hot rails for comunication or train schedules, no room for error here.
    Thanks

    quote:Originally posted by A J Christ
    TIG it. Use helium and copper filler rod. Wear a resperator cause the fumes are gonna be rough. 1 3/4", going to need a lot of heat.

    How bad are the inclusions, how many and how large? What effect will they have on th eperformance of the round stock? Consider selling what you have and purchasing new/good stuff.


    If the heating/forging process removes the inclusions, I'd think you could use it as is, if not, reject the whole batch. If the finished product need to be perfect, start with the best materials you can find or else you will be disappointed in the results. If there are inclusions where you can see them, I'm betting there are also some where you can't.
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