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Gents- why not stop the peeing-on-fire-hydrants contest, and answer the question the man asked that STARTED this thread ??? First- several small packages are better than ONE big package. Things that I have sent to friends in sandy places- smokes, snuff, Red Man, hard candy, gum, vitamins (sealed bottles of Flintstones) Pringles, AA batteries, sunblock, tooth paste, instant hot chocolate, Ramen noodles, playing cards, writing paper and envelopes, ball point pens, little packs of hot sauce, mustard, and Taco Bell sauce. A baseball, Frisbee, or what have you. Baby wipes and magazines. Copy of local newspaper. Paperback books. A dozen pair of sunglasses from the local dollar store. Cheap chess, checkers, dominoes. Kool-Aid (presweetened) Crystal light drink mix. Phone cards. Friends used to send me small care packages when I was in the bush, and I used to bless them for it. As far as what the GI's today need to do- take a look around at an equivalent age group of civilians- those youngsters in harm's way are doing quite well in my humble opinion. PS- For those of you that, like me, may live on airplanes in civilian life- you can DONATE frequent flyer miles to the USO- GI's coming hme on leave get transport to the US- but have to pay for the flight from their port of entry to home. Or you can donate miles to Fisher House- the Ronald McDonald type house for families of wounded GI's recovering in VA hospitals. C'mon- you are never gonna get the free time to use the miles, anyway. OK, I'll put the soap box away, and y'all can go back to arguing.
quote:Originally posted by 11b6r
Gents- why not stop the peeing-on-fire-hydrants contest, and answer the question the man asked that STARTED this thread ??? First- several small packages are better than ONE big package. Things that I have sent to friends in sandy places- smokes, snuff, Red Man, hard candy, gum, vitamins (sealed bottles of Flintstones) Pringles, AA batteries, sunblock, tooth paste, instant hot chocolate, Ramen noodles, playing cards, writing paper and envelopes, ball point pens, little packs of hot sauce, mustard, and Taco Bell sauce. A baseball, Frisbee, or what have you. Baby wipes and magazines. Copy of local newspaper. Paperback books. A dozen pair of sunglasses from the local dollar store. Cheap chess, checkers, dominoes. Kool-Aid (presweetened) Crystal light drink mix. Phone cards. Friends used to send me small care packages when I was in the bush, and I used to bless them for it. As far as what the GI's today need to do- take a look around at an equivalent age group of civilians- those youngsters in harm's way are doing quite well in my humble opinion. PS- For those of you that, like me, may live on airplanes in civilian life- you can DONATE frequent flyer miles to the USO- GI's coming hme on leave get transport to the US- but have to pay for the flight from their port of entry to home. Or you can donate miles to Fisher House- the Ronald McDonald type house for families of wounded GI's recovering in VA hospitals. C'mon- you are never gonna get the free time to use the miles, anyway. OK, I'll put the soap box away, and y'all can go back to arguing.
LT: "Oh look, Sarge: Top Ramen! My absolute favorite! Oh, and the latest issue of Guns&Ammo. Did you know that the M16 is a jam-o-matic and putting us all in danger?"
SGT: "Yes, I read that, LT. In fact, I'm talking to the Chaplain about it after vespers."
LT: "That's taking the initiative, sergeant. By the way, might you have time for a game of checkers?"
SGT: "Not right now, I'm afraid. I need to go boff that new honey I met looking at Rolexes at the PX."
quote:Originally posted by rogue_rob
quote:PUH-LEEZE. I have talked to plenty of returnees, Matt45 included. My nephew is an Army captain serving in Afghanistan and we email regularly. But like mpolans and frogbert, your wrongly suppose a difference of opinion is some kind of argument, and this despite the fact that you have no personal knowledge base from which to draw. If my description of the creature comforts in Iraq and Afghanistan is incorrect, kindly point out where and I will tell my nephew and Matt45 that they are liars. Else, do not think for a moment that your pouting and hand-wringing is any substitute for a reasoned opposing view.
No knowledge base?? [:D] My friend, I've been to Iraq. As a matter of fact, I have 2 jumps in Iraq. I've been deployed plenty of times to many different countries and you think I don't know how a soldier feels? You're reaching now old man.
I never said your description was incorrect. I just think a soldier would like to hear from home. That's all I said
Y'all ever come across a guy in life who has it together?
I figger this guy, based on what I read from him, is a pretty well adjusted dude.
Hey RR, you ever get to north central North Carolina (near Raleigh) and the cold co cola is on me!
Well I am just simply amazed by some of the B.S. being spouted here. Regardless of weather you think todays troups have it too our soft, dead is dead. Perhaps you need to have a son or daughter who is in harms way and then spout your crap about how easy it is. What ever happen to Semper Fi.
quote:Originally posted by rogue_rob
I never said your description was incorrect. I just think a soldier would like to hear from home. That's all I said.
So where we disagree is not the part about ice cubes to Alaska (which is what this thread started out to be) but the part about where I feel that back home comforts and other distractions are not appreciated. Is that it? If so, read my posts again; the issue for me was never about appreciation, but rather advisability. And if you are saying that MTV, Internet access and getting phone calls and care packages from home makes for better a soldier, then yes, I guess we strongly disagree.
quote:Originally posted by alaska 207
Well I am just simply amazed by some of the B.S. being spouted here. Regardless of weather you think todays troups have it too our soft, dead is dead. Perhaps you need to have a son or daughter who is in harms way and then spout your crap about how easy it is. What ever happen to Semper Fi.
You, sir, are an impertinent *. "Dead is dead"? Ya think? It's a nice sunny day outside. Why don't you go make some chlorophyll?
quote:Originally posted by DancesWithSheep
quote:Originally posted by gap1916
Those that have been there know.
That is correct. And this post-Vietnam era fawning and doting on American troops like they are children makes me puke. You know what they need? They need to get hard; as hard as the enemy, preferably harder. They need to master marksmanship and maintenance of their weapon and love it. They need to master the bayonet and love it. They need to stop whining and stop accessorizing and accoutrementing like clerks working at some friggin' SOF boutique. They need to take a lesson from ROK Marines and concentrate only on doing what they're told and kicking *. If I was Emperor, I'd fly each wide-* trooper out of Iraq and put her on the border with Mexico. For those remaining in Iraq and Afghanistan, I'd dump their TV and iPods and Internet service and phone calls and trips home, and rescind every friggin "You-were-there-and-you-had-a-heartbeat-so-here's-another-gratuitous medal" awarded since the war started. Maybe if we at home stopped forming these pansy-* support groups and started demanding verified body counts the troops would get home a hell of a lot quicker.
A voice of reason in the wilderness. The most recent joke? The Combat Action Badge (aka "CAB") and the TOC-rats who go out on one mission and earn it because another vehicle in the convoy got hit by an IED even though nobody inside the actual vehicle that was struck even had a concussion.
Yep, I"m in another part of the country taking care of some business and have a chance to use an internet connection. Soft? Maybe. I'm sure soldiers of previous wars would have taken advantage of it if it was offered to them. The water I drink? Not Evian. I drink purified Tigris river water. It tastes the same as any other ol' water but it's worse than the Hudson River when it's in its original state. The other water I've had has come from the Middle East somewhere. But I digress. My squad lives at an Iraqi Police station 5 days and nights per week. Some of the Iraqi Police are insurgents. We had to apprehend one about a month ago. You train them and take them out on patrols by day and then stand on their roof augmenting their security by night but some of them are "irhabi". I crap in a cardboart box and eat MRE's. I don't have the luxury that the Infantry next door has--a building to themselves with satellite, weight-lifting equipment, internet access, and hot food delivered once/day. Oh yeah. I forgot about the shower tent. I get one of those twice/week. Know much about Iraqis? Their filthy disgusting SOB's who make me retch at least once/week by the smells they create with their rotting food and fecal matter. I might not sleep on the ground but I have to shake hands with filth and wonder if they would rather have me dead when they smile at me. Do I have it easy? I have it easier than past generations but we all have our own challenges. It should be harder and I am called "uncaring" when I am hard on my soldiers. Giving them weekly massages isn't going to give them the mental edge they need. Today's soldier is going up against a people who lost a 100,000 in their unending battle with Iran.
Making the lives of soldiers too easy (and many of them never leave the FOB) makes soldiers less cohesive because they are able to turn to something other than their fellow soldier for comfort. Give them vehicles and weapons that work. Give them their beans, bullets and bandages and don't crucify them in the media when they celebrate and say it felt good after taking the life of the enemy.
Most of the contents of my care packages (aside from toothpaste and soap and stuff that I would normally have to buy myself) gets tossed to children. I have Iraqi Police toss it to the kids during patrols. It feels good to see the scorn in the eye of the father and the brother who want you dead but can't really say anything while you are getting a thumbs-up or a high-five from their 6-year-old son or daughter.
quote:Originally posted by idsman75
Give them their beans, bullets and bandages and don't crucify them in the media when they celebrate and say it felt good after taking the life of the enemy.
A big ooh-rah to that and God bless your dogface *, Jeremy.
quote:And if you are saying that MTV, Internet access and getting phone calls and care packages from home makes for better a soldier, then yes, I guess we strongly disagree.
You brought up the MTV, Internet nonsense. I didn't. The original post was what could be sent over to help out. You said they already had enough crap over there to do them well enough and I stated that no matter WHAT they have over there or what they're doing over there, whether it be patrolling the streets, getting shot at daily or sitting in an air conditioned tent doing nothing all day, they would want to hear from home.
You elevated it to something that it didn't need to be elevated to.
When my wife goes over there in a few months, you can bet your candy * that I'll be sending her a package every month. If that makes her time go by faster or brings a smile to her face when she sees it, then I will have done MY job back here supporting her and letting her know that I haven't forgotten about her over there. On an extended deployment, a soldier WILL have thoughts that no one back home cares or they will wonder if they are being remembered by their loved ones. It's human nature. You WILL get lonely. THOSE PACKAGES HELP! I still remember a package I recieved once. It had fig newtons and a calvin and hobbes comic book in it(among other things.) I was the richest man in that company that day.
Regardless of what you say here DWS, soldiers over there are people too, they have their good days and their bad days. Regardless of whether or not they are pogues or warriors. If a phone card or some baby wipes helps out a little bit, then by golly that's what they will get.
I'll be willing to bet Jeremy has appreciated any cards or packages sent over from the GB folks. I'll also bet that it brought a smile to his ugly assed face too![:D]
quote:Originally posted by rogue_rob
quote:And if you are saying that MTV, Internet access and getting phone calls and care packages from home makes for better a soldier, then yes, I guess we strongly disagree.
You brought up the MTV, Internet nonsense. I didn't. The original post was what could be sent over to help out. You said they already had enough crap over there to do them well enough and I stated that no matter WHAT they have over there or what they're doing over there, whether it be patrolling the streets, getting shot at daily or sitting in an air conditioned tent doing nothing all day, they would want to hear from home.
You elevated it to something that it didn't need to be elevated to.
When my wife goes over there in a few months, you can bet your candy * that I'll be sending her a package every month. If that makes her time go by faster or brings a smile to her face when she sees it, then I will have done MY job back here supporting her and letting her know that I haven't forgotten about her over there. On an extended deployment, a soldier WILL have thoughts that no one back home cares or they will wonder if they are being remembered by their loved ones. It's human nature. You WILL get lonely. THOSE PACKAGES HELP! I still remember a package I recieved once. It had fig newtons and a calvin and hobbes comic book in it(among other things.) I was the richest man in that company that day.
Regardless of what you say here DWS, soldiers over there are people too, they have their good days and their bad days. Regardless of whether or not they are pogues or warriors. If a phone card or some baby wipes helps out a little bit, then by golly that's what they will get.
I'll be willing to bet Jeremy has appreciated any cards or packages sent over from the GB folks. I'll also bet that it brought a smile to his ugly assed face too![:D]
Do you not know how to read, dude? I've reiterated my point several times for you now: This is NOT about appreciation. Get it? And given this, this attenuation of your same lame lament is suspect. Are you this slow to grasp the obvious or do you have some agenda you'd like to spit out? Jeremy does not have a problem understanding the difference between appreciation and advisability; what the hell is your problem?
quote:Do you not know how to read, dude? I've reiterated my point several times for you now: This is NOT about appreciation. Get it? And given this, this attenuation of your same lame lament is suspect. Are you this slow to grasp the obvious or do you have some agenda you'd like to spit out? Jeremy does not have a problem understanding the difference between appreciation and advisability; what the hell is your problem?
Yeah "dude", I know how to read. It just seems you are arguing just for the sake of arguing.
I'm done talking to you about this subject, you really have no clue. Or perhaps you don't understand my point because I haven't used enough words that everyone else has to google to know the meaning of.
Why don't you send send something that YOU think they could use to someone stationed overseas?
Which brings up an interesting point. Do you think the American public should forget about them over there and just not send anything? That's what it's been sounding like from you.
Why don't you just go picket an animal shelter and cool it?
quote:Originally posted by rogue_rob
Yeah "dude", I know how to read. It just seems you are arguing just for the sake of arguing.
I'm done talking to you about this subject, you really have no clue. Or perhaps you don't understand my point because I haven't used enough words that everyone else has to google to know the meaning of.
Why don't you send send something that YOU think they could use to someone stationed overseas?
Which brings up an interesting point. Do you think the American public should forget about them over there and just not send anything? That's what it's been sounding like from you.
Why don't you just go picket an animal shelter and cool it?
Oh, that's right, dude: When called on your inability to stay on point, much less comprehend it, and having nowhere else to go, you slime out the back door; M'lady is "done talking about the subject". You learn that at Jump School, Alice?
quote:When called on your inability to stay on point
I believe this was the original "point"
quote: I know this has come up before. If you have a friend, relative, loved one who is put in harms way, what can we provide for you or your loved one? I beleive it is that time again.
quote:Originally posted by rogue_rob
quote:When called on your inability to stay on point
I believe this was the original "point"
quote: I know this has come up before. If you have a friend, relative, loved one who is put in harms way, what can we provide for you or your loved one? I beleive it is that time again.
And my rejoinder was about the advisability of doing same, not whether it would be appreciated. That you and others fail to address the advisability issue and instead insist that appreciation as the sole and proper criterion for measure is exactly why we disagree; you feel that whatever comforts can be sent from home will be appreciated. Dick Tracey. And I'm saying that care packages and iPods and Internet access and calls to and from home and MTV all take the edge off and are distractions, at times dangerous ones. And that you simply disagree with me (and apparently also IDSMAN) will not be served by your clinging to the appreciation factor like a crucifix. Likely you do this because we have a different frame of reference, a different focus: You have a loved one soon leaving for war, and so your main concern is for her well-being and safety; I have my own recollections of war and feel that I would not have benefitted (read: been made a better combatant) for having had those distractions. Your concern is understandable, and completely human. Unfortunately, understanding and humanism don't get it done, and you know it; only killing gets it done, and a fruitcake or call from home or catching Top 10 videos is not conducive to the job. Of course, you can disagree with me; it's just that you have yet to do it. All you have done is say, repeatedly, that it's a lonely biz and such gestures will be appreciated, yada-yada, so why the hell not? And I've tried for two pages here to tell you why the hell not and what I think should instead be the focus. No matter. Go ahead and send cookies and boresnakes, and I'll worry that about the 20% of the people in my nephew's unit who failed to qualify with the M16.
Yes, I have gotten a couple of packages from GB members and I certainly appreciate them. I don't get much mail but that is because I sleep an average of 3 - 4 hours per night and don't have much time to write. I have a couple of down days right now due to the "business" I'm taking care of in other parts and the rest is out of my hand until it's complete. Therefore, I have internet access. I've gone weeks without going to use he internet and then I get the business from my family for it. My phone calls and my letters are more for the sake of my mother and my father (especially after my grandmother died in March). I have a "hooch" on the FOB. It's where we store our crap and sleep during the two days/nights we're back to shower and fix my trucks.
What nauseates me is taking a bus to and from the chow hall and hearing he AFN radio station broadcast "special events". "Sign up for Yoga class every Monday, Wednesday and Friday at the MWR building!" That crap is sickening because there are people who actually have 9 - 5 jobs out here and never leave the wire. Sure, my pay is straight and my logistical needs are satisfied but why are they throwing tax dollars at Salsa Dance classes for FOB-roaches when I'm driving trucks that have been blown up more times than I care to know? This is he first long highway trip I've made without having to tow one vehicle with another. Take away your stupid Salsa Classes and give us vehicles that work. Heck, they're giving brand new HumVees to the Iraqi Army now.
Yes, I appreciate the packages. Don't get me wrong, the motorcycle magazines and the beef jerky were great. So were the Playboy magazines. I'm not a big girlie-mag kind of guy but my soldiers enjoyed them. I have had to deal with the negative ramifications of a comfort-oriented Army. Care packages are great but you have soldiers that whine and want to string up the mail clerk because only two of their three care packages showed up this week. I took away my soldiers' X-Boxes because I felt they were a source of discipline and mental toughness issues that I was sick of dealing with. All of these electronic distractions and MWR comforts are sources of many underlying problems. Like I said before, soldiers get soft in the head and start whining when they have to crap in a box instead of a Western toilet. They cry when they don't get their daily internet dose and they start relying upon artificial forms of comfort instead of eachother. That relates directly to team and squad cohesion which is a combat multiplier and is suffering. I've grounded my squad when we were back on the FOB and restricted them to their hooch area. I've made my squad move as a squad-sized element and not as individuals when we were on the FOB. If one person wants to get a haircut, everyone goes to get a haircut. If someone wants to buy soap or whatever at the PX then everyone has to go to the PX together. It worked. Taking away the X-Box worked. I found that taking away some of the artificial comforts forced my soldiers to cohere better and work better as a squad.
I don't get many care packages and I usually give the anonymous ones from complete strangers to my interpreter who has gone the extra mile for me in other ways. I appreciate the ones that are sent to me. I have enough baby wipes to wipe an army of baby *ss. I have more soap, deodorant, toothpaste and toothbrushes than I'll use in 2 years. I use it and help my interpreter when he is in need. Don't get me wrong. I appreciate what I have been given. However, too much "MWR" money is spent on things that give way too much comfort to the FOB-Rats and not enough "Combat" money is spent on the tools needed to close with and destroy the enemy with a high degree of controlled violence and force of action.
quote:Originally posted by tacking1
oh yeah? oh yeah!
I find it amusing that after two statements by someone who would certainly be one to know that the best you can muster in reply is the mindless retort above. It is as if the errant belief on the part of you and certain others has a mind of its own that will not be deterred by any reason or cause; that your view of combatants as kids away at camp awaiting home-sent snacks and Calamine is to be preserved and protected even if it undermines the efforts of those in whose charge they have been placed (to quote IDSMAN: "I found that taking away some of the artificial comforts forced my soldiers to cohere better and work better as a squad"). While I can understand the desire to make loved ones as comfortable as possible in a difficult situation, I have no doubt that the provision of such comfort has more to do with the selfish and myopic need of the sender rather than any actual need on the part of the recipient.
.
quote:Originally posted by DancesWithSheep
quote:Originally posted by tacking1
oh yeah? oh yeah!
I find it amusing that after two statements by someone who would certainly be one to know that the best you can muster in reply is the mindless retort above. It is as if the errant belief on the part of you and certain others has a mind of its own that will not be deterred by any reason or cause; that your view of combatants as kids away at camp awaiting home-sent snacks and Calamine is to be preserved and protected even if it undermines the efforts of those in whose charge they have been placed (to quote IDSMAN: "I found that taking away some of the artificial comforts forced my soldiers to cohere better and work better as a squad"). While I can understand the desire to make loved ones as comfortable as possible in a difficult situation, I have no doubt that the provision of such comfort has more to do with the selfish and myopic need of the sender rather than any actual need on the part of the recipient.
.
Hey Cap...I'll be the first to admit that in a battle of wits with you, I'd be a goner.
Please, though, be aware that there was much consideration given to the retort above. You guys are like two kids arguing against each other with the same point. My "oh yeah" retort was intended to bring to light the futility of a disagreement between two people who deadlocked in the netherlands of self righteousness.
Golly gee though, it does make me all tingly to have the great DWS point his intellect my way, even if to skewer, as it were.
quote:Originally posted by tacking1
Hey Cap...I'll be the first to admit that in a battle of wits with you, I'd be a goner.
Please, though, be aware that there was much consideration given to the retort above. You guys are like two kids arguing against each other with the same point. My "oh yeah" retort was intended to bring to light the futility of a disagreement between two people who deadlocked in the netherlands of self righteousness.
Golly gee though, it does make me all tingly to have the great DWS point his intellect my way, even if to skewer, as it were.
I am afraid you have misjudged my purpose. The subject to me is too important to be prompted by desire to engage in a battle of wits. Nor is your "oh yeah" characterization appropriate if you understand the seriousness with which the issue should be viewed. Distractions and warm and fuzzies in a combat zone make for a double-edged sword for which the comfort derived from one dulls the purpose of the other. And having had personal experience of such matters, I view these distractions as a disservice, and those who would provide them aiding and abetting that disservice. Make light of it if you wish, as as civilians we have the luxury to do. But I do not feel that this is any matter to be taken lightly.
I'll try my best to illustrate DWS's point. If your son goes to Basic Training (aka "boot camp") or whatever the given service calls it thse days and they call home after week two crying and saying they want to quit--what do you do? I have seen two courses of action. I have seen mothers and fathers pander to the "I don't have my milk and cookies" mindset and tell their kid to come home at whatever cost because mommy and daddy don't want to see their son upset that Mr. Drill Sergeant is making him be a man. Joe Snuffy the Private tells the Drill Sergeant that he is going to kill himself and someone else and then gets sent home on a psych chapter. He has to go off and try to get a job now in the civilian sector with that on his record and it will be on his discharge paperwork. Also, Private Joe Snuffy has now set himself back further mentally due to the fact that he was able to quit probably the biggest thing he ever attempted in his sheltered life. He'll probably grow up to be a failure or live with mommy and daddy until he's 36 years old. I've seen it happen.
Then you have the second course of action. You have Dad who was a Viet Nam vet who tells his son to buck the **** up and don't dare drag his sorry *** home with anything other than a DD FORM 214 that says "Honorable Discharge" on it. Private Joe Snuffy calls home and cries and dad tells him to stop being a p*ssy. I've seen that happen too. Guess what. It works. There is no longer a course of least resistance.
Of course I email my family but I run out of things to say because the things worth mentioning are just going to scare the living bejeezuz out of them and I'm not going to do that to my mother. We laugh about some of the crap but my mother wouldn't. I ran out of things to say to my family. I haven't had time to write a letter in months and now I have a little time and I have other crap that I have to do next door to this internet site.
Care packages are great but now I can order just about anything online except when I go through those really busy "exciting weeks" where I barely have time to eat one meal a day. The PX has everything from digital cameras to televisions to microwaves. I bought an MP3 player but haven't listened to it in 2 months. I pick up a radio station in the city that is all Arabic and I'm learning a little here and there so I used its FM tuner to listen to the Arabic radio station. I have about 600 songs but haven't listened to any of them in ages. I bought a digital camera because now I am required to produce certain things to my chain-of-command. Daily and Monthly station reports and assessments get produced on a computer I purchased (not the Army). The photos that I am required to take are taken with my digital camera--not the Army's.
Like I said before, too much money is spent keeping those who work on the FOB happy and opiated. A soldier can relax too much and lose his edge. I actually have to apply stress to my squad when we come back to the FOB to shower and do maintenance so they don't get numb from the lack of stress they encounter the other five days of the week. Too much creature comfort can take a way focus. A little here and there is good. I keep the motorcycle mags and use them as a little visual inspiration for the day I leave this place. There's a new Ducati 695 Monster in my future.
Tried not to get into this, BUT. Seems like I must agree with DWS and
Idsman 75. Yes, I am a old WW2 fart. Infantry rifleman 3rd Inf Div..
About the worse job in the ETO then and after. MOS: 745 Rifleman. Mail was the biggest morale booster. Packages from home were great but usually stale but still eaten. Best damn package I recived had a loaf of unsliced bread in it and came from my aunt Helen. Kind of heavy for a loaf of stale bread so I cut into it. Inside was a pint of Old Grandad bourbon. Now thats a real "care package" guys. Couldnt hide it, so each man in our squad which was down to 8 men had a coule of drinks. But as these 2 guys say, too much pampering will undermine a combat soldiers actions. Usually what is necessary is /or was supplied. I dont know how it is now but all our "possessions" were carried by us. To many things to take your mind off your mission just
got one careless and being careless resulted in being a casualty. I am sure this holds the same even now, over 60 years later. So go ahead and tear me up guys but this is my answer. Too many "goodies"
makes a front line soldier soft and careless in combat.
i TOTALLY agree with joe and DWS....IF i could have gone to VN or WWII i would have. just the same is as they COULD go to the "sandbox" they would. i made it threw the first (2) invasions of fallujah. yeah life sucked. buy yea...we didnt sign up for the boy scouts.
i have the upmost respect for hairy, DWS, rouge, saxon, ECC, etc etc (i apologize for those that i missed...i did a give-a last year veterans day...so i know who you are [;)][:)] )because they answered the call....as did i
as far as care packages shove them up your *. the only thing i received was rotten tomatoes and rocks on my return. i was with 2BN 4th Marines (the magnificent meanies) Echo CO for you na-sayers..
EDIT: its suppose to be magnificent BA$TARDS....uuggghhhh[:(!], sorry i forgot you joe...was on a rant...i for sure havent forgot about you, cruzie, will270, patbuzz, ski', dave w... etc etc...
MN Hunter: Between you and Idsman you guys make my day for telling the truth. On comming home from WW 2: The first immediate group was well welcomed, the second groups were accepted, in early '46 on my return
we left the ship AFTER the garbage was put ashore without even anyone
careing. Hate to think what happened to the other groups comming home
a bit later. Our Division (3rd Inf Div.) had the highest casualties
(26,000 BATTLE casualties) of any Div. in the U.S. Army. Not to mention the NON BATTLE casualties. This from a Div. of about 15,000
when up to full strength which it never was in combat.
quote:Originally posted by joeaf1911a1
MN Hunter: Between you and Idsman you guys make my day for telling the truth. On comming home from WW 2: The first immediate group was well welcomed, the second groups were accepted, in early '46 on my return
we left the ship AFTER the garbage was put ashore without even anyone
careing. Hate to think what happened to the other groups comming home
a bit later. Our Division (3rd Inf Div.) had the highest casualties
(26,000 BATTLE casualties) of any Div. in the U.S. Army. Not to mention the NON BATTLE casualties. This from a Div. of about 15,000
when up to full strength which it never was in combat.
i understand were you are coming from. when we invaded fallujah the 2nd time, i/we lost NUMEROUS Marines in the process....
the worst part about it is that the history channel did a "story" about it, called "shootout: the battle of fallujah" or something to that name, anywho, you can see my ugly * in that video.
Comments
Gents- why not stop the peeing-on-fire-hydrants contest, and answer the question the man asked that STARTED this thread ??? First- several small packages are better than ONE big package. Things that I have sent to friends in sandy places- smokes, snuff, Red Man, hard candy, gum, vitamins (sealed bottles of Flintstones) Pringles, AA batteries, sunblock, tooth paste, instant hot chocolate, Ramen noodles, playing cards, writing paper and envelopes, ball point pens, little packs of hot sauce, mustard, and Taco Bell sauce. A baseball, Frisbee, or what have you. Baby wipes and magazines. Copy of local newspaper. Paperback books. A dozen pair of sunglasses from the local dollar store. Cheap chess, checkers, dominoes. Kool-Aid (presweetened) Crystal light drink mix. Phone cards. Friends used to send me small care packages when I was in the bush, and I used to bless them for it. As far as what the GI's today need to do- take a look around at an equivalent age group of civilians- those youngsters in harm's way are doing quite well in my humble opinion. PS- For those of you that, like me, may live on airplanes in civilian life- you can DONATE frequent flyer miles to the USO- GI's coming hme on leave get transport to the US- but have to pay for the flight from their port of entry to home. Or you can donate miles to Fisher House- the Ronald McDonald type house for families of wounded GI's recovering in VA hospitals. C'mon- you are never gonna get the free time to use the miles, anyway. OK, I'll put the soap box away, and y'all can go back to arguing.
Did someone leave the cake out in the rain?
Yup...
LT: "Oh look, Sarge: Top Ramen! My absolute favorite! Oh, and the latest issue of Guns&Ammo. Did you know that the M16 is a jam-o-matic and putting us all in danger?"
SGT: "Yes, I read that, LT. In fact, I'm talking to the Chaplain about it after vespers."
LT: "That's taking the initiative, sergeant. By the way, might you have time for a game of checkers?"
SGT: "Not right now, I'm afraid. I need to go boff that new honey I met looking at Rolexes at the PX."
LT: "Go get 'em, tiger!"
SGT: "Ooh-Rah on that, LT!"
I like chess l'il pooper...[:X]
I'll send you a care package. What's your favorite flavor of Kool Aid?
Grape a'course...[:X]
quote:PUH-LEEZE. I have talked to plenty of returnees, Matt45 included. My nephew is an Army captain serving in Afghanistan and we email regularly. But like mpolans and frogbert, your wrongly suppose a difference of opinion is some kind of argument, and this despite the fact that you have no personal knowledge base from which to draw. If my description of the creature comforts in Iraq and Afghanistan is incorrect, kindly point out where and I will tell my nephew and Matt45 that they are liars. Else, do not think for a moment that your pouting and hand-wringing is any substitute for a reasoned opposing view.
No knowledge base?? [:D] My friend, I've been to Iraq. As a matter of fact, I have 2 jumps in Iraq. I've been deployed plenty of times to many different countries and you think I don't know how a soldier feels? You're reaching now old man.
I never said your description was incorrect. I just think a soldier would like to hear from home. That's all I said
Y'all ever come across a guy in life who has it together?
I figger this guy, based on what I read from him, is a pretty well adjusted dude.
Hey RR, you ever get to north central North Carolina (near Raleigh) and the cold co cola is on me!
Thanks for doing what you do.
I never said your description was incorrect. I just think a soldier would like to hear from home. That's all I said.
So where we disagree is not the part about ice cubes to Alaska (which is what this thread started out to be) but the part about where I feel that back home comforts and other distractions are not appreciated. Is that it? If so, read my posts again; the issue for me was never about appreciation, but rather advisability. And if you are saying that MTV, Internet access and getting phone calls and care packages from home makes for better a soldier, then yes, I guess we strongly disagree.
Well I am just simply amazed by some of the B.S. being spouted here. Regardless of weather you think todays troups have it too our soft, dead is dead. Perhaps you need to have a son or daughter who is in harms way and then spout your crap about how easy it is. What ever happen to Semper Fi.
You, sir, are an impertinent *. "Dead is dead"? Ya think? It's a nice sunny day outside. Why don't you go make some chlorophyll?
quote:Originally posted by gap1916
Those that have been there know.
That is correct. And this post-Vietnam era fawning and doting on American troops like they are children makes me puke. You know what they need? They need to get hard; as hard as the enemy, preferably harder. They need to master marksmanship and maintenance of their weapon and love it. They need to master the bayonet and love it. They need to stop whining and stop accessorizing and accoutrementing like clerks working at some friggin' SOF boutique. They need to take a lesson from ROK Marines and concentrate only on doing what they're told and kicking *. If I was Emperor, I'd fly each wide-* trooper out of Iraq and put her on the border with Mexico. For those remaining in Iraq and Afghanistan, I'd dump their TV and iPods and Internet service and phone calls and trips home, and rescind every friggin "You-were-there-and-you-had-a-heartbeat-so-here's-another-gratuitous medal" awarded since the war started. Maybe if we at home stopped forming these pansy-* support groups and started demanding verified body counts the troops would get home a hell of a lot quicker.
A voice of reason in the wilderness. The most recent joke? The Combat Action Badge (aka "CAB") and the TOC-rats who go out on one mission and earn it because another vehicle in the convoy got hit by an IED even though nobody inside the actual vehicle that was struck even had a concussion.
Yep, I"m in another part of the country taking care of some business and have a chance to use an internet connection. Soft? Maybe. I'm sure soldiers of previous wars would have taken advantage of it if it was offered to them. The water I drink? Not Evian. I drink purified Tigris river water. It tastes the same as any other ol' water but it's worse than the Hudson River when it's in its original state. The other water I've had has come from the Middle East somewhere. But I digress. My squad lives at an Iraqi Police station 5 days and nights per week. Some of the Iraqi Police are insurgents. We had to apprehend one about a month ago. You train them and take them out on patrols by day and then stand on their roof augmenting their security by night but some of them are "irhabi". I crap in a cardboart box and eat MRE's. I don't have the luxury that the Infantry next door has--a building to themselves with satellite, weight-lifting equipment, internet access, and hot food delivered once/day. Oh yeah. I forgot about the shower tent. I get one of those twice/week. Know much about Iraqis? Their filthy disgusting SOB's who make me retch at least once/week by the smells they create with their rotting food and fecal matter. I might not sleep on the ground but I have to shake hands with filth and wonder if they would rather have me dead when they smile at me. Do I have it easy? I have it easier than past generations but we all have our own challenges. It should be harder and I am called "uncaring" when I am hard on my soldiers. Giving them weekly massages isn't going to give them the mental edge they need. Today's soldier is going up against a people who lost a 100,000 in their unending battle with Iran.
Making the lives of soldiers too easy (and many of them never leave the FOB) makes soldiers less cohesive because they are able to turn to something other than their fellow soldier for comfort. Give them vehicles and weapons that work. Give them their beans, bullets and bandages and don't crucify them in the media when they celebrate and say it felt good after taking the life of the enemy.
Most of the contents of my care packages (aside from toothpaste and soap and stuff that I would normally have to buy myself) gets tossed to children. I have Iraqi Police toss it to the kids during patrols. It feels good to see the scorn in the eye of the father and the brother who want you dead but can't really say anything while you are getting a thumbs-up or a high-five from their 6-year-old son or daughter.
Give them their beans, bullets and bandages and don't crucify them in the media when they celebrate and say it felt good after taking the life of the enemy.
A big ooh-rah to that and God bless your dogface *, Jeremy.
You brought up the MTV, Internet nonsense. I didn't. The original post was what could be sent over to help out. You said they already had enough crap over there to do them well enough and I stated that no matter WHAT they have over there or what they're doing over there, whether it be patrolling the streets, getting shot at daily or sitting in an air conditioned tent doing nothing all day, they would want to hear from home.
You elevated it to something that it didn't need to be elevated to.
When my wife goes over there in a few months, you can bet your candy * that I'll be sending her a package every month. If that makes her time go by faster or brings a smile to her face when she sees it, then I will have done MY job back here supporting her and letting her know that I haven't forgotten about her over there. On an extended deployment, a soldier WILL have thoughts that no one back home cares or they will wonder if they are being remembered by their loved ones. It's human nature. You WILL get lonely. THOSE PACKAGES HELP! I still remember a package I recieved once. It had fig newtons and a calvin and hobbes comic book in it(among other things.) I was the richest man in that company that day.
Regardless of what you say here DWS, soldiers over there are people too, they have their good days and their bad days. Regardless of whether or not they are pogues or warriors. If a phone card or some baby wipes helps out a little bit, then by golly that's what they will get.
I'll be willing to bet Jeremy has appreciated any cards or packages sent over from the GB folks. I'll also bet that it brought a smile to his ugly assed face too![:D]
I figger this guy, based on what I read from him, is a pretty well adjusted dude.
Hey RR, you ever get to north central North Carolina (near Raleigh) and the cold co cola is on me!
Thanks for doing what you do.
I may make it down your way sometime this year man. I'll be visiting some friends at Bragg.
I'll take you up on your offer.
quote:And if you are saying that MTV, Internet access and getting phone calls and care packages from home makes for better a soldier, then yes, I guess we strongly disagree.
You brought up the MTV, Internet nonsense. I didn't. The original post was what could be sent over to help out. You said they already had enough crap over there to do them well enough and I stated that no matter WHAT they have over there or what they're doing over there, whether it be patrolling the streets, getting shot at daily or sitting in an air conditioned tent doing nothing all day, they would want to hear from home.
You elevated it to something that it didn't need to be elevated to.
When my wife goes over there in a few months, you can bet your candy * that I'll be sending her a package every month. If that makes her time go by faster or brings a smile to her face when she sees it, then I will have done MY job back here supporting her and letting her know that I haven't forgotten about her over there. On an extended deployment, a soldier WILL have thoughts that no one back home cares or they will wonder if they are being remembered by their loved ones. It's human nature. You WILL get lonely. THOSE PACKAGES HELP! I still remember a package I recieved once. It had fig newtons and a calvin and hobbes comic book in it(among other things.) I was the richest man in that company that day.
Regardless of what you say here DWS, soldiers over there are people too, they have their good days and their bad days. Regardless of whether or not they are pogues or warriors. If a phone card or some baby wipes helps out a little bit, then by golly that's what they will get.
I'll be willing to bet Jeremy has appreciated any cards or packages sent over from the GB folks. I'll also bet that it brought a smile to his ugly assed face too![:D]
Do you not know how to read, dude? I've reiterated my point several times for you now: This is NOT about appreciation. Get it? And given this, this attenuation of your same lame lament is suspect. Are you this slow to grasp the obvious or do you have some agenda you'd like to spit out? Jeremy does not have a problem understanding the difference between appreciation and advisability; what the hell is your problem?
Yeah "dude", I know how to read. It just seems you are arguing just for the sake of arguing.
I'm done talking to you about this subject, you really have no clue. Or perhaps you don't understand my point because I haven't used enough words that everyone else has to google to know the meaning of.
Why don't you send send something that YOU think they could use to someone stationed overseas?
Which brings up an interesting point. Do you think the American public should forget about them over there and just not send anything? That's what it's been sounding like from you.
Why don't you just go picket an animal shelter and cool it?
Yeah "dude", I know how to read. It just seems you are arguing just for the sake of arguing.
I'm done talking to you about this subject, you really have no clue. Or perhaps you don't understand my point because I haven't used enough words that everyone else has to google to know the meaning of.
Why don't you send send something that YOU think they could use to someone stationed overseas?
Which brings up an interesting point. Do you think the American public should forget about them over there and just not send anything? That's what it's been sounding like from you.
Why don't you just go picket an animal shelter and cool it?
Oh, that's right, dude: When called on your inability to stay on point, much less comprehend it, and having nowhere else to go, you slime out the back door; M'lady is "done talking about the subject". You learn that at Jump School, Alice?
I believe this was the original "point"
quote: I know this has come up before. If you have a friend, relative, loved one who is put in harms way, what can we provide for you or your loved one? I beleive it is that time again.
quote:When called on your inability to stay on point
I believe this was the original "point"
quote: I know this has come up before. If you have a friend, relative, loved one who is put in harms way, what can we provide for you or your loved one? I beleive it is that time again.
And my rejoinder was about the advisability of doing same, not whether it would be appreciated. That you and others fail to address the advisability issue and instead insist that appreciation as the sole and proper criterion for measure is exactly why we disagree; you feel that whatever comforts can be sent from home will be appreciated. Dick Tracey. And I'm saying that care packages and iPods and Internet access and calls to and from home and MTV all take the edge off and are distractions, at times dangerous ones. And that you simply disagree with me (and apparently also IDSMAN) will not be served by your clinging to the appreciation factor like a crucifix. Likely you do this because we have a different frame of reference, a different focus: You have a loved one soon leaving for war, and so your main concern is for her well-being and safety; I have my own recollections of war and feel that I would not have benefitted (read: been made a better combatant) for having had those distractions. Your concern is understandable, and completely human. Unfortunately, understanding and humanism don't get it done, and you know it; only killing gets it done, and a fruitcake or call from home or catching Top 10 videos is not conducive to the job. Of course, you can disagree with me; it's just that you have yet to do it. All you have done is say, repeatedly, that it's a lonely biz and such gestures will be appreciated, yada-yada, so why the hell not? And I've tried for two pages here to tell you why the hell not and what I think should instead be the focus. No matter. Go ahead and send cookies and boresnakes, and I'll worry that about the 20% of the people in my nephew's unit who failed to qualify with the M16.
What nauseates me is taking a bus to and from the chow hall and hearing he AFN radio station broadcast "special events". "Sign up for Yoga class every Monday, Wednesday and Friday at the MWR building!" That crap is sickening because there are people who actually have 9 - 5 jobs out here and never leave the wire. Sure, my pay is straight and my logistical needs are satisfied but why are they throwing tax dollars at Salsa Dance classes for FOB-roaches when I'm driving trucks that have been blown up more times than I care to know? This is he first long highway trip I've made without having to tow one vehicle with another. Take away your stupid Salsa Classes and give us vehicles that work. Heck, they're giving brand new HumVees to the Iraqi Army now.
Yes, I appreciate the packages. Don't get me wrong, the motorcycle magazines and the beef jerky were great. So were the Playboy magazines. I'm not a big girlie-mag kind of guy but my soldiers enjoyed them. I have had to deal with the negative ramifications of a comfort-oriented Army. Care packages are great but you have soldiers that whine and want to string up the mail clerk because only two of their three care packages showed up this week. I took away my soldiers' X-Boxes because I felt they were a source of discipline and mental toughness issues that I was sick of dealing with. All of these electronic distractions and MWR comforts are sources of many underlying problems. Like I said before, soldiers get soft in the head and start whining when they have to crap in a box instead of a Western toilet. They cry when they don't get their daily internet dose and they start relying upon artificial forms of comfort instead of eachother. That relates directly to team and squad cohesion which is a combat multiplier and is suffering. I've grounded my squad when we were back on the FOB and restricted them to their hooch area. I've made my squad move as a squad-sized element and not as individuals when we were on the FOB. If one person wants to get a haircut, everyone goes to get a haircut. If someone wants to buy soap or whatever at the PX then everyone has to go to the PX together. It worked. Taking away the X-Box worked. I found that taking away some of the artificial comforts forced my soldiers to cohere better and work better as a squad.
I don't get many care packages and I usually give the anonymous ones from complete strangers to my interpreter who has gone the extra mile for me in other ways. I appreciate the ones that are sent to me. I have enough baby wipes to wipe an army of baby *ss. I have more soap, deodorant, toothpaste and toothbrushes than I'll use in 2 years. I use it and help my interpreter when he is in need. Don't get me wrong. I appreciate what I have been given. However, too much "MWR" money is spent on things that give way too much comfort to the FOB-Rats and not enough "Combat" money is spent on the tools needed to close with and destroy the enemy with a high degree of controlled violence and force of action.
oh yeah? oh yeah!
I find it amusing that after two statements by someone who would certainly be one to know that the best you can muster in reply is the mindless retort above. It is as if the errant belief on the part of you and certain others has a mind of its own that will not be deterred by any reason or cause; that your view of combatants as kids away at camp awaiting home-sent snacks and Calamine is to be preserved and protected even if it undermines the efforts of those in whose charge they have been placed (to quote IDSMAN: "I found that taking away some of the artificial comforts forced my soldiers to cohere better and work better as a squad"). While I can understand the desire to make loved ones as comfortable as possible in a difficult situation, I have no doubt that the provision of such comfort has more to do with the selfish and myopic need of the sender rather than any actual need on the part of the recipient.
.
quote:Originally posted by tacking1
oh yeah? oh yeah!
I find it amusing that after two statements by someone who would certainly be one to know that the best you can muster in reply is the mindless retort above. It is as if the errant belief on the part of you and certain others has a mind of its own that will not be deterred by any reason or cause; that your view of combatants as kids away at camp awaiting home-sent snacks and Calamine is to be preserved and protected even if it undermines the efforts of those in whose charge they have been placed (to quote IDSMAN: "I found that taking away some of the artificial comforts forced my soldiers to cohere better and work better as a squad"). While I can understand the desire to make loved ones as comfortable as possible in a difficult situation, I have no doubt that the provision of such comfort has more to do with the selfish and myopic need of the sender rather than any actual need on the part of the recipient.
.
Hey Cap...I'll be the first to admit that in a battle of wits with you, I'd be a goner.
Please, though, be aware that there was much consideration given to the retort above. You guys are like two kids arguing against each other with the same point. My "oh yeah" retort was intended to bring to light the futility of a disagreement between two people who deadlocked in the netherlands of self righteousness.
Golly gee though, it does make me all tingly to have the great DWS point his intellect my way, even if to skewer, as it were.
Hey Cap...I'll be the first to admit that in a battle of wits with you, I'd be a goner.
Please, though, be aware that there was much consideration given to the retort above. You guys are like two kids arguing against each other with the same point. My "oh yeah" retort was intended to bring to light the futility of a disagreement between two people who deadlocked in the netherlands of self righteousness.
Golly gee though, it does make me all tingly to have the great DWS point his intellect my way, even if to skewer, as it were.
I am afraid you have misjudged my purpose. The subject to me is too important to be prompted by desire to engage in a battle of wits. Nor is your "oh yeah" characterization appropriate if you understand the seriousness with which the issue should be viewed. Distractions and warm and fuzzies in a combat zone make for a double-edged sword for which the comfort derived from one dulls the purpose of the other. And having had personal experience of such matters, I view these distractions as a disservice, and those who would provide them aiding and abetting that disservice. Make light of it if you wish, as as civilians we have the luxury to do. But I do not feel that this is any matter to be taken lightly.
Then you have the second course of action. You have Dad who was a Viet Nam vet who tells his son to buck the **** up and don't dare drag his sorry *** home with anything other than a DD FORM 214 that says "Honorable Discharge" on it. Private Joe Snuffy calls home and cries and dad tells him to stop being a p*ssy. I've seen that happen too. Guess what. It works. There is no longer a course of least resistance.
Of course I email my family but I run out of things to say because the things worth mentioning are just going to scare the living bejeezuz out of them and I'm not going to do that to my mother. We laugh about some of the crap but my mother wouldn't. I ran out of things to say to my family. I haven't had time to write a letter in months and now I have a little time and I have other crap that I have to do next door to this internet site.
Care packages are great but now I can order just about anything online except when I go through those really busy "exciting weeks" where I barely have time to eat one meal a day. The PX has everything from digital cameras to televisions to microwaves. I bought an MP3 player but haven't listened to it in 2 months. I pick up a radio station in the city that is all Arabic and I'm learning a little here and there so I used its FM tuner to listen to the Arabic radio station. I have about 600 songs but haven't listened to any of them in ages. I bought a digital camera because now I am required to produce certain things to my chain-of-command. Daily and Monthly station reports and assessments get produced on a computer I purchased (not the Army). The photos that I am required to take are taken with my digital camera--not the Army's.
Like I said before, too much money is spent keeping those who work on the FOB happy and opiated. A soldier can relax too much and lose his edge. I actually have to apply stress to my squad when we come back to the FOB to shower and do maintenance so they don't get numb from the lack of stress they encounter the other five days of the week. Too much creature comfort can take a way focus. A little here and there is good. I keep the motorcycle mags and use them as a little visual inspiration for the day I leave this place. There's a new Ducati 695 Monster in my future.
Idsman 75. Yes, I am a old WW2 fart. Infantry rifleman 3rd Inf Div..
About the worse job in the ETO then and after. MOS: 745 Rifleman. Mail was the biggest morale booster. Packages from home were great but usually stale but still eaten. Best damn package I recived had a loaf of unsliced bread in it and came from my aunt Helen. Kind of heavy for a loaf of stale bread so I cut into it. Inside was a pint of Old Grandad bourbon. Now thats a real "care package" guys. Couldnt hide it, so each man in our squad which was down to 8 men had a coule of drinks. But as these 2 guys say, too much pampering will undermine a combat soldiers actions. Usually what is necessary is /or was supplied. I dont know how it is now but all our "possessions" were carried by us. To many things to take your mind off your mission just
got one careless and being careless resulted in being a casualty. I am sure this holds the same even now, over 60 years later. So go ahead and tear me up guys but this is my answer. Too many "goodies"
makes a front line soldier soft and careless in combat.
i have the upmost respect for hairy, DWS, rouge, saxon, ECC, etc etc (i apologize for those that i missed...i did a give-a last year veterans day...so i know who you are [;)][:)] )because they answered the call....as did i
as far as care packages shove them up your *. the only thing i received was rotten tomatoes and rocks on my return. i was with 2BN 4th Marines (the magnificent meanies) Echo CO for you na-sayers..
EDIT: its suppose to be magnificent BA$TARDS....uuggghhhh[:(!], sorry i forgot you joe...was on a rant...i for sure havent forgot about you, cruzie, will270, patbuzz, ski', dave w... etc etc...
i was with 2BN 4th Marines (the magnificent meanies) Echo CO for you na-sayers..
L 3/4 my second tour. Semper Fi.
we left the ship AFTER the garbage was put ashore without even anyone
careing. Hate to think what happened to the other groups comming home
a bit later. Our Division (3rd Inf Div.) had the highest casualties
(26,000 BATTLE casualties) of any Div. in the U.S. Army. Not to mention the NON BATTLE casualties. This from a Div. of about 15,000
when up to full strength which it never was in combat.
MN Hunter: Between you and Idsman you guys make my day for telling the truth. On comming home from WW 2: The first immediate group was well welcomed, the second groups were accepted, in early '46 on my return
we left the ship AFTER the garbage was put ashore without even anyone
careing. Hate to think what happened to the other groups comming home
a bit later. Our Division (3rd Inf Div.) had the highest casualties
(26,000 BATTLE casualties) of any Div. in the U.S. Army. Not to mention the NON BATTLE casualties. This from a Div. of about 15,000
when up to full strength which it never was in combat.
i understand were you are coming from. when we invaded fallujah the 2nd time, i/we lost NUMEROUS Marines in the process....
the worst part about it is that the history channel did a "story" about it, called "shootout: the battle of fallujah" or something to that name, anywho, you can see my ugly * in that video.