The .223 (5.56 nato)

Big Sky Redneck

There seems to some bashing of this caliber on here lately by one certain individual. My question is what is wrong with it? Do you really think it can't kill? I have 2 AR's, 1 bolt Rem and a NEF bull barreld single in .223. I know a deer is not a human but body mass is somewhat comparable to a small person. I have killed quite a few deer with this caliber using all different kinds of bullets. I have seen deer drop dead in their tracks for a shoulder shot, have seen them drop from a behind the shoulder shot. I have seen some bad shots put them down in a hurry. I have shot deer in the head using military ammo and the results were impressive, same as shoulder shots. If you hit bone it's all over. The .223 is a deadly little thing, it can do devastating damage when it hits. granted now it is a .22 caliber bullet and it will not bring down a moose like a .338 but I think for deer sized critters and home invaders of the human type will find the .223 quite scary. I would not be afraid to fight with a .223 and I believe shot placement has alot to do with it's performance but I don't think it's underpowered like a certain person makes it out to be. I for one don't want to get shot with it. That little bullet can be like a grenade and do some major damage, atleast on the deer I've seen hit with it. Don't underestimate it.

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If you want my guns you will have to kill me first. I was born free and to take that from me you better be ready to fight.

v35

Glad to have some experienced perspective on the 223. There is all to much speculation and not enough hard data on these boards.

k.stanonik

Opinions are like, well we know the rest of the phrase. I agree with the above statement,The thought behind the round is to stop, not totaly tear apart the object being shot, higher caliber rounds will penetrate more as we all know, in a hostage situation i beleive LEO's are looking for a round that will stop the aggresor but not go out and hit the victim if the situation comes up. This is my opinion.

gap1916

Every round has its place. The .223/5.56 has a firm place. The majority of military forces in the world can not be all wrong. The .223 was a varmit hunting round way before it was a military round. I have no problems with it as a self defence round or a hunting round. For shear fun in plincking I like it also. My 2 cents.

blaze

I know personally I would not want to be shot with it, especially from a sniper who may get a headshot, dont care if he is self respecting or not, I would still be dead, & that my friends would suck.

aglore

Let's see, if it was around as a varmint cartridge WAY before it became a military round, how come Remington didn't make the sporting version of it until after it had been adopted by the military in 1964.This cartridge was designed by Bob Hutton with the help of Gene Stoner and his Armalite AR-15. The 222 Rem. Mag is a sporting cartridge that was supposed to be the military cartridge that the 223 eventually became. The 222 Rem. Mag was a joint effort by Remington and Springfield Armory. The 222 Rem. Mag was turned into a sporting cartridge in 1958 and the 223 was still in the experimetal stages at the time.

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AlleninAlaska

pops401

If you don't believe in it, stand in front of it. That'll probably change your mind. [This message has been edited by pops401 (edited 02-12-2002).]

Bullzeye

Let me give you a description from Delta Force Sergeant First-Class Paul Howe:Howe was an expert marksman, and thought he had surely hit them, he couldn't tell for sure because they kept running until they crossed the street and were out of view. It bugged him immensely.His weapon was the most sophisticated military rifle in the world, a customized M4 Carbine, and he was shooting the Army's new 5.56mm. green-tip round. The green tip had a tungsten-carbide penetrator at the tip, and would punch holes in titanium armor, but that very penetrating power meant his rounds were passing right through his targets.When they got close enough, he could see where he hit them. Their shirts would lift up at the point of impact, as if someone had pinched and plucked up the fabric. But with the green-tip round it was like poking them with an ice-pick.The bullet made a nice little clean hole, and unless it hit the heart or spine, there was no way it was going to stop a man in his tracks.Howe felt like he had to hit a guy 2 or 3 times just to get his attention, and then 5 or 6 more times to finally put him down.He had plenty of ammo and spare clips, but that benefit seemed very hollow to him now. They used to kid Randy Shughart because he shunned the modern M16s and M4s and carried a Vietnam-era M14, which shot a 7.62mm round without the penetrating qualities of the new green tip. It occured to Howe as he wasted magazine after magazine of ammo on those Sammies that Randy was the smartest soldier in the unit.His rifle may have been heavier, comparatively awkward, and delivered a mean recoil, but it damn sure knocked a man down with one bullet, and in combat, one shot was often all you got. You shoot a guy, you want to see him go down; you dont want to be guessing for the next five hours whether you hit him, or whether he's still waiting in the weeds.

concealedG36

My dad used to say a .22 will kill you "just as dead".

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Gun Control Disarms Victims, NOT Criminals

Big Sky Redneck

If he was an expert marksman why wasnt he shooting them in thte head? I pesonally don't like a .308, to me it is a hotrodded 30-30 but does that mean it won't kill? No it doesnt. Myself I will tkae a .223 over a .308 any day, but that is me. if you think the .22 cal is no good, go with us in the spring for a culling trip on the fields. I'll show you what can be done with a .22 magnum. I'll show you what can be done with the .223. Like I said it aint no .338 or anything like that. But for what it was intended for , in the right hands it is extremely effective. Like my father told me when I got my first Bushy, many vets run down the '16 and the .223 cal as a military cartridge but ask them if they ever used it in the manner it should be. Full auto fire don't always work, they would empty magazine after magazine at the enemy and find hardly any bodies. Why? They depended on full auto to do the job, hip shoot on full auto with anything and you will be surprised what you hit. One more thing, I have seen quite a few gut shot deer run after being hit with big calibers. A buddy of mine GUTTED a deer with a .338 in one shot and the deer still ran 200 yards. The same thing happens with a .223, you just gotta make the shot. If you want to kill on the spot everytime no matter where it hits the target, better get a grenade launcher. After seeing fisrt hand what the .223 is capable of I don't think twice about using it. I still like my overpowered 7mm UM but the .223 is just as deadly when shooting deer or anything else in it's size and weight class.

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If you want my guns you will have to kill me first. I was born free and to take that from me you better be ready to fight.

v35

This discussion probably wouldnt have taken place if Vietnam hadn't happened. The Service rifle would probably have been a version of the German MP43 in .308 and the 222mag relegated to poppin chucks.

Bullzeye

MP43? Come again?That rifle was outdated by the H&K G3 and the FN FAL several years before Vietnam became an issue.The M16 was chosen to be the standard rifle in trials before Vietnam. It should have been either the G3 or the FAL, but institutional bias towards Colt allowed them to be granted the contract to produce the M-16.Dano (and dano II):They fired what they were issued. They had no choice in what type of 5.56mm ammo they fired.Top brass says "Give em the slap rounds", and thats what they get.[This message has been edited by Bullzeye (edited 02-12-2002).]

Evil ATF

The brass were a bunch of retards. The only thing that the .223 has going for it is that it is a flat shooter and can fragment realy nice when traveling at a high rate of speed. Take away the ability to fragment in the targets body and you have a hi-tech ice pick. Personally, if I was in Somalia, I'd have brought one of those .50 BMG, full-auto AK-47's that the news media and Sarah Brady are always screaming about.

Varmintmist

556 Nato (223 Rem) was a purpose built cartridge. It was not even in existance before the M16 theroy. As originally developed, X FMJ (mandated by the Geneva Convention, you dont get Nos BTs) bullet weight at Y velocity in a Z twist bbl, you got a almost unstable projectile. When it hit the target, it lost all sembalence of reason and tumbled causing all sorts of nasty wound channels. That got changed when the Brass finally decided that a bullet needed to reach out and touch someone over near the USSR border. Now you have a non-expanding 22 that has decent accuracy. The benifits of being able to carry more ammo is significant, but you need more ammo to make the thing work, sooo its kind of a catch 22.We sold (gave away) M16's to all of our allies and wanna be allies (nice for Colt and all of the polititions brothers). When everyone had them and the idea to standarize ammo throughout NATO came up, to rearm ALL of the people who had M16s wasnt practical, plus we had a lot of pull. (see Colt+Polititions) If we hadnt of won that one, it might be 11.24 Nato out of a 1911 today.If you are scootin and shootin, and your target is scootin and shootin, AT YOU, head shots are a lucky mistake.Personal preference, If I can only bore caliber sized holes, I'd like my holes bigger, and have the option to engage at a longer range.As for a varmint cartridge, the 22-250 will do everything the 223 will do, only better. The 222 Rem is a much quieter round than the 223 and started life as a benchrest cartridge, if noise is a factor in your decision. 223 brass is available in vast quantities and is cheap, if you want to swage all of the milspec primer pockets. If you but commericial brass, the price difference isnt worth talking about.223 is a good cartridge that fills a void that isnt there. [This message has been edited by Varmintmist (edited 02-12-2002).]

bonin4life

will a .223 and 5.56 nato fire out of any ar 15

roboman

Jeeesome talk about reviving an old thread.

It depends what the chamber is. If it's chambered in 223 Rem. then you should only fire 223 Rem. out of it. If it's in 5.56 then you can safely fire both.

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Proud card-carrying member of the Wolf Ammo Anti-Defamation League

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"The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long..."

FrancF

quote:Originally posted by Varmintmist
556 Nato (223 Rem) was a purpose built cartridge. It was not even in existance before the M16 theroy. As originally developed, X FMJ (mandated by the Geneva Convention, you dont get Nos BTs) bullet weight at Y velocity in a Z twist bbl, you got a almost unstable projectile. When it hit the target, it lost all sembalence of reason and tumbled causing all sorts of nasty wound channels. That got changed when the Brass finally decided that a bullet needed to reach out and touch someone over near the USSR border. Now you have a non-expanding 22 that has decent accuracy. The benifits of being able to carry more ammo is significant, but you need more ammo to make the thing work, sooo its kind of a catch 22.<P>We sold (gave away) M16's to all of our allies and wanna be allies (nice for Colt and all of the polititions brothers). When everyone had them and the idea to standarize ammo throughout NATO came up, to rearm ALL of the people who had M16s wasnt practical, plus we had a lot of pull. (see Colt+Polititions) If we hadnt of won that one, it might be 11.24 Nato out of a 1911 today.<P>If you are scootin and shootin, and your target is scootin and shootin, AT YOU, head shots are a lucky mistake.<P>Personal preference, If I can only bore caliber sized holes, I'd like my holes bigger, and have the option to engage at a longer range.<P>As for a varmint cartridge, the 22-250 will do everything the 223 will do, only better. The 222 Rem is a much quieter round than the 223 and started life as a benchrest cartridge, if noise is a factor in your decision. 223 brass is available in vast quantities and is cheap, if you want to swage all of the milspec primer pockets. If you but commericial brass, the price difference isnt worth talking about.<P>223 is a good cartridge that fills a void that isnt there. <p>[This message has been edited by Varmintmist (edited 02-12-2002).]


10X-Ring [:D]





NRA Life Endowment Member

Red223

My bud loads up I think they are 80 grainers in .223. I traded him some stuff for a box of ammo to try them out. He shoots them thru his White Oak Armament AR rifle.

I ain't tried them yet but they sure look like they'll put something down quick.

plains scout

It is not how fast the bullet goes

It is not how much the bullet weighs

It is not how big of hole it makes

It is all about where the bullet hits.

nugh said

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin,

In the truest sense, freedom cannot be bestowed; it must be achieved.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Wrangler

PS is right. It's all about shot placement. [;)]

"You give respect... you get respect."

Meanie

I'd rather put a non expanding bullet in the the bg's head than a hollow point in the gut.

Ray B

Appears to me this recount ends up the same- those that like the 5.56 still think it's best; those that like something else are of that opinion still; and those that say it's the shooting, not the gun still think it is what matters- Shakespeare wrote about this- Much ado about nothing.