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JamesQuinn...
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Member Posts: 168,427 ✭
You stated that George Washington never made any claims about Jesus Christ...or being a Christian. Did you even bother to read the article I posted? Here are some of his quotes. I think it's pretty clear he was a Christian:
On September 17th, 1796, George Washington said, "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." In His Prayer At Valley Forge, he entreated God: "Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prostrates myself before Thee."
...and then:
"To the distinguished character of a patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of a Christian."
On September 17th, 1796, George Washington said, "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." In His Prayer At Valley Forge, he entreated God: "Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prostrates myself before Thee."
...and then:
"To the distinguished character of a patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of a Christian."
Comments
You stated that George Washington never made any claims about Jesus Christ...or being a Christian. Did you even bother to read the article I posted? Here are some of his quotes. I think it's pretty clear he was a Christian:
On September 17th, 1796, George Washington said, "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." In His Prayer At Valley Forge, he entreated God: "Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prostrates myself before Thee."
...and then:
"To the distinguished character of a patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of a Christian."
Oh yeah, I saw that. It's phoney, bogus and completely untrue.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/badquotes.htm
http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/misqidx.htm
The only question is whether you intentionally used this falsehood, or whether you were simply duped.
Here, I'll tell you again: Washington never claimed he was of the Christian faith. Nor did Jefferson nor Franklin.
quote:Originally posted by ECC
You stated that George Washington never made any claims about Jesus Christ...or being a Christian. Did you even bother to read the article I posted? Here are some of his quotes. I think it's pretty clear he was a Christian:
On September 17th, 1796, George Washington said, "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." In His Prayer At Valley Forge, he entreated God: "Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prostrates myself before Thee."
...and then:
"To the distinguished character of a patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of a Christian."
Oh yeah, I saw that. It's phoney, bogus and completely untrue.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/badquotes.htm
http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/misqidx.htm
The only question is whether you intentionally used this falsehood, or whether you were simply duped.
Here, I'll tell you again: Washington never claimed he was of the Christian faith. Nor did Jefferson nor Franklin.
Believe what you wish...some folks will try to tell you the sky's not blue on a clear day.
Why do you think the preamble to EVERY state's constitution refers to the God of Christianity?
Did they tell you that in a sayance???? Stories handed down from generation to generation tend to change and tweaked to make it how you want it to.
Did they tell you that in a sayance???? Stories handed down from generation to generation tend to change and tweaked to make it how you want it to.
These quotes are from a very well recorded/documented prayer at Valley Forge...that's good enough for me.
quote:Originally posted by PSFD DONKEY
Did they tell you that in a sayance???? Stories handed down from generation to generation tend to change and tweaked to make it how you want it to.
These quotes are from a very well recorded/documented prayer at Valley Forge...that's good enough for me.
But it got to be false be posted two websites that said it wasn't[:o)]
It's got to be false, he posted two websites that said it was!
Well that's good enough for me then......[;)][;)]
It's got to be false, he posted two websites that said it was!Well, there you go, pretty much incontrovertible, huh!
If you can't feel the music; it's only pink noise!
The answer to "what was Jefferson's religion?" depends on who you ask, or if you asked Jefferson, when you asked.
Benjamin Franklin was raised as an Episcopalian and later became a Deist.
You can't, of course, because it never happened.
LOL!
ECC... I'm on your side on this one, was referancing JamesQuinn's reply.
10/4
quote:Originally posted by PSFD DONKEY
Did they tell you that in a sayance???? Stories handed down from generation to generation tend to change and tweaked to make it how you want it to.
These quotes are from a very well recorded/documented prayer at Valley Forge...that's good enough for me.
And that documentation and recording exists where? LOL!!!
Constitutional Convention of 1787, including the
Signers of the Constitution of the United States of America
There were 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention of 1787 at which the U.S. Constitution was drafted and signed. All participated in the proceedings which resulted in the Constitution, but only 39 of these delegates were actually signers of the document.
From: Robert G. Ferris (editor), Signers of the Constitution: Historic Places Commemorating the Signing of the Constitution, published by the United States Department of the Interior, National Park Service: Washington, D.C. (revised edition 1976), page 138:
Most of the [signers of the Constitution] married and fathered children. Sherman sired the largest family, numbering 15 by two wives... Three (Baldwin, Gilman, and Jenifer) were lifetime bachelors. In terms of religious affiliation, the men mirrored the overwhelmingly Protestant character of American religious life at the time and were members of various denominations. Only two, Carroll and Fitzsimons, were Roman Catholics.
Religious Affiliation # of
delegates % of
delegates
Episcopalian/Anglican 31 56.4%
Presbyterian 16 29.1%
Congregationalist 8 14.5%
Quaker 3 5.5%
Catholic 2 3.6%
Methodist 2 3.6%
Lutheran 2 3.6%
Dutch Reformed 2 3.6%
TOTAL 55 100%
Name of Signer State Religious Affiliation
Daniel Carroll Maryland Catholic
Thomas Fitzsimons Pennsylvania Catholic
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
Nathaniel Gorham Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Langdon New Hampshire Congregationalist
Nicholas Gilman New Hampshire Congregationalist
Abraham Baldwin Georgia Congregationalist; Episcopalian
William Samuel Johnson Connecticut Episcopalian; Presbyterian
James Madison Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
George Read Delaware Episcopalian
Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer Maryland Episcopalian
David Brearly New Jersey Episcopalian
Richard Dobbs Spaight, Sr. North Carolina Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Gouverneur Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
John Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney South Carolina Episcopalian
Charles Pinckney South Carolina Episcopalian
Pierce Butler South Carolina Episcopalian
George Washington Virginia Episcopalian
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
William Blount North Carolina Episcopalian; Presbyterian
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyteran
Rufus King Massachusetts Episcopalian; Congregationalist
Jacob Broom Delaware Lutheran
William Few Georgia Methodist
Richard Bassett Delaware Methodist
Gunning Bedford Jr. Delaware Presbyterian
James McHenry Maryland Presbyterian
William Livingston New Jersey Presbyterian
William Paterson New Jersey Presbyterian
Hugh Williamson North Carolina Presbyterian
Jared Ingersoll Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Alexander Hamilton New York Huguenot; Presbyterian; Episcopalian
Jonathan Dayton New Jersey Presbyterian; Episcopalian
John Blair Virginia Presbyterian; Episcopalian
John Dickinson Delaware Quaker; Episcopalian
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker; Episcopalian
Thomas Mifflin Pennsylvania Quaker; Lutheran
You can't, of course, because it never happened.
LOL!
quote:Originally posted by JamesQuinn
You can't, of course, because it never happened.
LOL!
Good find, 35Whelen. An original Washington document and not one mention of Jesus or Christianity. Thanks.
Save your efforts for someone with an open mind, not a one like JamesQuinn's that is nailed shut, shuttered, bolted, locked, and has an out-of-business sign hanging from the knob.
"You desire to know something of my religion. It is the first time I have been questioned upon it. But I cannot take your curiosity amiss, and shall endeavour in a few words to gratify it. Here is my creed. I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His providence. That He ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable service we render Him is doing good to His other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental principles of all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them."
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and better observed; especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in His government of the world with any particular marks of His displeasure."
"I shall only add, respecting myself, that, having experienced the goodness of that Being in conducting me prosperously through a long life, I have no doubt of its continuance in the next, without the smallest conceit of meriting it... I confide that you will not expose me to criticism and censure by publishing any part of this communication to you. I have ever let others enjoy their religious sentiments, without reflecting on them for those that appeared to me unsupportable and even absurd. All sects here, and we have a great variety, have experienced my good will in assisting them with subscriptions for building their new places of worship; and, as I never opposed any of their doctrines, I hope to go out of the world in peace with them all."
[Benjamin Franklin, letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale, shortly before his death; from "Benjamin Franklin" by Carl Van Doren, the October, 1938 Viking Press edition pages 777-778 Also see Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94]
"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."
[Benjamin Franklin, in _Toward The Mystery_]
"Indeed, when religious people quarrel about religion, or hungry people quarrel about victuals, it looks as if they had not much of either among them."
[Benjamin Franklin, quoted by Joseph Lewis in "Benjamin Franklin - Freethinker.
THOMAS JEFFERSON ON CHRISTIANITY & RELIGION
Compiled by Jim Walker
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
--Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782)
In spite of right-wing Christian attempts to rewrite history to make Jefferson into a Christian, little about his philosophy resembles that of Christianity. Although Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence wrote of the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God, there exists nothing in the Declaration about Christianity.
Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion. He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus.
Distortions of history occur in the minds of many Christians whenever they see the word "God" embossed in statue or memorial concrete. For example, those who visit the Jefferson Memorial in Washington will read Jefferson's words engraved: "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man." When they see the word "God" many Christians see this as "proof" of his Christianity without thinking that "God" can have many definitions ranging from nature to supernatural. Yet how many of them realize that this passage aimed at attacking the tyranny of the Christian clergy of Philadelphia, or that Jefferson's God was not the personal god of Christianity? Those memorial words came from a letter written to Benjamin Rush in 1800 in response to Rush's warning about the Philadelphia clergy attacking Jefferson (Jefferson was seen as an infidel by his enemies during his election for President). The complete statement reads as follows:
"The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me. . ."
Jefferson aimed at laissez-faire liberalism in the name of individual freedom, He felt that any form of government control, not only of religion, but of individual mercantilism consisted of tyranny. He thought that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry.
If anything can clear of the misconceptions of Jeffersonian history, it can come best from the author himself. Although Jefferson had a complex view of religion, too vast for this presentation, the following quotes provide a glimpse of how Thomas Jefferson viewed the corruptions of Christianity and religion.
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."
--Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
--Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."
--Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
"I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians."
--Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
--Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
In 1793 Washington thus summarized the religious philosophy he was evolving during his Mount Vernon years: "How happenings would terminate is known only to the great ruler of events; and confiding in his wisdom and goodness, we may safely trust the issue to him, without perplexing ourselves to seek for that which is beyond human ken, only taking care to perform the parts assigned to us in a way that reason and our own conscience approve of."
George Washington was, like Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, a deist.
[The Forge of Experience Volume One of James Thomas Flexner's four volume biography of Washington; Little, Brown & Company; pps 244-245]
George Washington's conduct convinced most Americans that he was a good Christian, but those possessing first-hand knowledge of his religious convictions had reasons for doubt.
[Barry Schwartz, George Washington: The Making of an American Symbol, New York: The Free Press, 1987, p. 170]
Washington subscribed to the religious faith of the Enlightenment: Like Franklin and Jefferson, he was a deist.
[Flexner, James Thomas Flexner, Washington The Indispensable Man. New York, 1974: New American Library, 1974. p. 216]
...That he was not just striking a popular attitude as a politician is revealed by the absence of of the usual Christian terms: he did not mention Christ or even use the word "God." Following the phraseology of the philosophical Deism he professed, he referred to "the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men," to "the benign parent of the human race."
[James Thomas Flexner, on Washington's first inaugural speech in April 1789, in George Washington and the New Nation [1783-1793], Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1970, p. 184.]
Some of Washington's thoughts:
"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
"It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible."
"The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained."
"I am sure that never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs, than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency, which was so often manifested during our Revolution, or that they failed to consider the omnipotence of that God who is alone able to protect them."
"...I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution."
[To United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover]
"The blessed Religion revealed in the word of God will remain an eternal and awful monument to prove that the best Institutions may be abused by human depravity; and that they may even, in some instances, be made subservient to the vilest of purposes."
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06.html
From this source, it is apparent that Washington did belong to the Episcopal Church. Franklin seems to be a Diest without any formal affiliation to any church, and Jefferson was the least religious of the three. (Which is basically what several of the posts agree with.)
You cannot convince JamesQuinn of anything he does not want to believe; he is 100% prejudiced about his world view.
Save your efforts for someone with an open mind, not a one like JamesQuinn's that is nailed shut, shuttered, bolted, locked, and has an out-of-business sign hanging from the knob.
You're correct, Tallcharlie. 2+2=4. Indisputable fact.
Washington, Jefferson and Franklin were not Christians. Indisputable fact.
Case closed, nailed shut, shuttered, bolted and locked, phony documents, revisionist history and false claims notwithstanding.
You cannot convince JamesQuinn of anything he does not want to believe; he is 100% prejudiced about his world view.
Save your efforts for someone with an open mind, not a one like JamesQuinn's that is nailed shut, shuttered, bolted, locked, and has an out-of-business sign hanging from the knob.
+1000. Lights on but no one's home
Makes me wonder if he actually read that letter.
quote:Originally posted by tallcharlie
You cannot convince JamesQuinn of anything he does not want to believe; he is 100% prejudiced about his world view.
Save your efforts for someone with an open mind, not a one like JamesQuinn's that is nailed shut, shuttered, bolted, locked, and has an out-of-business sign hanging from the knob.
+1000. Lights on but no one's home
Makes me wonder if he actually read that letter.
Yep, read it carefully. You obviously did not.
quote:Originally posted by 35WhelenClassic
quote:Originally posted by tallcharlie
You cannot convince JamesQuinn of anything he does not want to believe; he is 100% prejudiced about his world view.
Save your efforts for someone with an open mind, not a one like JamesQuinn's that is nailed shut, shuttered, bolted, locked, and has an out-of-business sign hanging from the knob.
+1000. Lights on but no one's home
Makes me wonder if he actually read that letter.
Yep, read it carefully. You obviously did not.
Did your parents have any children that lived?[}:)]
Read that letter again. When he mentioned "God" and "Divine Author of our Blessed religion", I'm fairly certain he wasn't talking about Muhammed.
Washington, Jefferson and Franklin were not Christians. Indisputable fact.
Washington's, Jefferson's and Franklin's religions aside, this post makes it pretty clear that you aren't influenced very much by facts.
Judging from the number of posts in this thread which dispute your assertion, it is NOT indisputable.
quote:Originally posted by JamesQuinn
Washington, Jefferson and Franklin were not Christians. Indisputable fact.
Washington's, Jefferson's and Franklin's religions aside, this post makes it pretty clear that you aren't influenced very much by facts.
Judging from the number of posts in this thread which dispute your assertion, it is NOT indisputable.
Well, JamesRK, your comprehension of English is at least good for a laugh.
I think 2+2=4 is indisputable.
You claim 2+2=3.
Bingo, you've just proven me wrong. 2+2=4 isn't indisputable.
Good one, JamesRK. LOL!
quote:Originally posted by JamesQuinn
quote:Originally posted by 35WhelenClassic
quote:Originally posted by tallcharlie
You cannot convince JamesQuinn of anything he does not want to believe; he is 100% prejudiced about his world view.
Save your efforts for someone with an open mind, not a one like JamesQuinn's that is nailed shut, shuttered, bolted, locked, and has an out-of-business sign hanging from the knob.
+1000. Lights on but no one's home
Makes me wonder if he actually read that letter.
Yep, read it carefully. You obviously did not.
Did your parents have any children that lived?[}:)]
Read that letter again. When he mentioned "God" and "Divine Author of our Blessed religion", I'm fairly certain he wasn't talking about Muhammed [sic].
I heard Joe Lieberman mention "God" the other day. I'm fairly certain he wasn't talking about Mohammad. Lieberman will be surprised to learn you've just proven he's Christian. Just as surprised as the Deist Washington would be.
nailed shutOne of the nails that your mind is nailed shut with must have pierced the ol gray matter.
Nelly Custis-Lewis was the adopted daughter of George Washington and the granddaughter of Martha Washington. She lived with George Washington for the first twenty years of her life and the last twenty years of his life, until his death in 1799.
This is a copy of a letter from Nelly Custis-Lewis to Jared Sparks dated 26 February 1833:
quote:Woodlawn, 26 February, 1833
Sir,
I received your favor of the 20th instant last evening, and hasten to give you the information, which you desire.
Truro Parish [Episcopal] is the one in which Mount Vernon, Pohick Church [the church where George Washington served as a vestryman], and Woodlawn [the home of Nelly and Lawrence Lewis] are situated. Fairfax Parish is now Alexandria. Before the Federal District was ceded to Congress, Alexandria was in Fairfax County. General Washington had a pew in Pohick Church, and one in Christ Church at Alexandria. He was very instrumental in establishing Pohick Church, and I believe subscribed [supported and contributed to] largely. His pew was near the pulpit. I have a perfect recollection of being there, before his election to the presidency, with him and my grandmother.
He attended the church at Alexandria when the weather and roads permitted a ride of ten miles [a one-way journey of 2-3 hours by horse or carriage]. In New York and Philadelphia he never omitted attendance at church in the morning, unless detained by indisposition [sickness]. The afternoon was spent in his own room at home; the evening with his family, and without company. Sometimes an old and intimate friend called to see us for an hour or two; but visiting and visitors were prohibited for that day [Sunday]. No one in church attended to the services with more reverential respect. My grandmother, who was eminently pious, never deviated from her early habits. She always knelt. The General, as was then the custom, stood during the devotional parts of the service. On communion Sundays, he left the church with me, after the blessing, and returned home, and we sent the carriage back for my grandmother.
It was his custom to retire to his library at nine or ten o'clock where he remained an hour before he went to his chamber. He always rose before the sun and remained in his library until called to breakfast. I never witnessed his private devotions. I never inquired about them. I should have thought it the greatest heresy to doubt his firm belief in Christianity. His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian. He was not one of those who act or pray, "that they may be seen of men" [Matthew 6:5]. He communed with his God in secret [Matthew 6:6].
My mother [Eleanor Calvert-Lewis] resided two years at Mount Vernon after her marriage [in 1774] with John Parke Custis, the only son of Mrs. Washington. I have heard her say that General Washington always received the sacrament with my grandmother before the revolution. (The king of England was the head of the church and apparently Washington would not recognize him as such after the war). When my aunt, Miss Custis [Martha's daughter] died suddenly at Mount Vernon, before they could realize the event [before they understood she was dead], he [General Washington] knelt by her and prayed most fervently, most affectingly, for her recovery. Of this I was assured by Judge [Bushrod] Washington's mother and other witnesses.
He was a silent, thoughtful man. He spoke little generally; never of himself. I never heard him relate a single act of his life during the war. I have often seen him perfectly abstracted, his lips moving, but no sound was perceptible. I have sometimes made him laugh most heartily from sympathy with my joyous and extravagant spirits. I was, probably, one of the last persons on earth to whom he would have addressed serious conversation, particularly when he knew that I had the most perfect model of female excellence [Martha Washington] ever with me as my monitress, who acted the part of a tender and devoted parent, loving me as only a mother can love, and never extenuating [tolerating] or approving in me what she disapproved of others. She never omitted her private devotions, or her public duties; and she and her husband were so perfectly united and happy that he must have been a Christian. She had no doubts, no fears for him. After forty years of devoted affection and uninterrupted happiness, she resigned him without a murmur into the arms of his Savior and his God, with the assured hope of his eternal felicity [happiness in Heaven].
Is it necessary that any one should certify, "General Washington avowed himself to me a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic, disinterested devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."
With sentiments of esteem,
I am, Nelly Custis-Lewis