In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
Tasers and Death
bhale187
Member Posts: 7,798
There's alot of talk about tasers lately, here's a local artical on them
http://www.sj-r.com/News/stories/20715.asp
Little evidence to prove that Tasers directly cause death
By SARAH ANTONACCI
STAFF WRITER
Published Monday, November 26, 2007
When someone dies after being stunned with a Taser, people are often quick to blame the death on the weapon.
Officially, however, a Taser is almost never ruled the cause of death.
Last week, Sangamon County Coroner Susan Boone said A. Paul Carlock, 57, the former policeman, clown and day-care worker who was in jail awaiting trial on sex tourism and child pornography charges, had an existing heart condition and that his death was natural - even though Carlock started to show symptoms of stress only moments after he was Tasered.
Howard Williams, police chief in San Marcos, Texas, has made a project of studying such deaths and is writing a book about Tasers and those who die after being shocked by them.
Of the 213 cases he's analyzed, Williams said, only one case was attributed directly to a Taser - and that was because, after the man was shocked with the Taser, he fell and suffered a head injury. In one other case, a man was shocked for 84 straight seconds, and a pathologist determined that the heart was damaged by a flow of electricity.
"There is a lot of conjecture (in media reports on the deaths) but very little evidence. I go on evidence, not conjecture. I'm an old cop. I set out to see the evidence, and the evidence convinced me that the Taser simply isn't killing anyone," Williams said.
Often, he said, those who die have drugs or alcohol in their systems or already had heart problems.
A number of the deaths also have been blamed on a condition called excited delirium.
Five years ago, Andrew Sallenger died of excited delirium after a struggle with Springfield police, the doctor who performed his autopsy concluded.
Dr. Kent Harshbarger, who performed the autopsy on Sallenger - and who already has been contacted by Carlock's family in connection with his death - said the scenario in Carlock's case was consistent with the same excited delirium condition.
Excited delirium happens when someone's body shuts down after an extreme "fight-or-flight" reaction. The person may be mentally ill or on drugs and fighting with law enforcement officers with almost superhuman strength. The person may be breathing heavily and not dispelling enough carbon dioxide, and eventually the pH balance of the blood is thrown off and the body shuts down.
Harshbarger said the diagnosis is an interesting one because it's impossible to study. Scientists cannot recreate the conditions of such an encounter, he said.
"You can't do an experimental study where you put someone in a psychotic state. There's no way to reproduce it. All these deaths have these factors in common, even when Tasers are not involved."
Police or correctional personnel often use Tasers in trying to regain control of an out-of-control person. As a result, people often assume that the Tasers are responsible for the death - an assumption the device's manufacturer, Taser International, tries vigorously to combat.
"Taser International is very strong-handed and bullying and very aggressive." Harshbarger said, "They sponsor studies to say Tasers can't kill."
And, he says, "Really, Tasers don't, at least in animal studies."
Harshbarger says it would take a very special circumstance for a Taser to cause someone's death directly.
But excited delirium is a diagnosis that can only be reached by process of elimination, Harshbarger said. Pathologists rule out everything else before labeling a death the result of excited delirium.
"The problem is, people die with all these other things - heart disease, manic state, often drugs are on board and they are Tasered," Harshbarger said. "Throw in deep pockets, and families are always convinced that governmental agencies are in the wrong. Then you have defense and plaintiff's attorneys involved."
Dr. Mark Kroll, who sits on the Taser International board, predicted that Carlock's death also will be ruled to have been caused by excited delirium.
However, he disagrees with Harshbarger on how to tell. There are scientific ways to determine whether a death was due to excited delirium, Kroll said.
"There's a checklist with about 18 things you look for," he said. "You look for psychosis, incoherent speech, great stamina, prolonged struggle, yelling, screaming."
Then, he said, a pathologist can look at the pattern of the victim's heart, the acidity of the blood, muscle breakdown.
"Some people suggest that it's a diagnosis of exclusion, but it's based on very, very sound physiology. We are designed with limits," he said.
Williams said watching someone be stunned with a Taser is itself often a frightening experience, and that makes it almost impossible for some people to believe that a Taser won't directly cause someone to die.
"You see people scream and see them in pain, and it's ugly looking. (But) at the end of five seconds it's over.
"The use of force is dirty business," he said. "At the same time, it's a necessary part of police work."
Sarah Antonacci can be reached at 788-1529 and sarah.antonacci@sj-r.com.
http://www.sj-r.com/News/stories/20715.asp
Little evidence to prove that Tasers directly cause death
By SARAH ANTONACCI
STAFF WRITER
Published Monday, November 26, 2007
When someone dies after being stunned with a Taser, people are often quick to blame the death on the weapon.
Officially, however, a Taser is almost never ruled the cause of death.
Last week, Sangamon County Coroner Susan Boone said A. Paul Carlock, 57, the former policeman, clown and day-care worker who was in jail awaiting trial on sex tourism and child pornography charges, had an existing heart condition and that his death was natural - even though Carlock started to show symptoms of stress only moments after he was Tasered.
Howard Williams, police chief in San Marcos, Texas, has made a project of studying such deaths and is writing a book about Tasers and those who die after being shocked by them.
Of the 213 cases he's analyzed, Williams said, only one case was attributed directly to a Taser - and that was because, after the man was shocked with the Taser, he fell and suffered a head injury. In one other case, a man was shocked for 84 straight seconds, and a pathologist determined that the heart was damaged by a flow of electricity.
"There is a lot of conjecture (in media reports on the deaths) but very little evidence. I go on evidence, not conjecture. I'm an old cop. I set out to see the evidence, and the evidence convinced me that the Taser simply isn't killing anyone," Williams said.
Often, he said, those who die have drugs or alcohol in their systems or already had heart problems.
A number of the deaths also have been blamed on a condition called excited delirium.
Five years ago, Andrew Sallenger died of excited delirium after a struggle with Springfield police, the doctor who performed his autopsy concluded.
Dr. Kent Harshbarger, who performed the autopsy on Sallenger - and who already has been contacted by Carlock's family in connection with his death - said the scenario in Carlock's case was consistent with the same excited delirium condition.
Excited delirium happens when someone's body shuts down after an extreme "fight-or-flight" reaction. The person may be mentally ill or on drugs and fighting with law enforcement officers with almost superhuman strength. The person may be breathing heavily and not dispelling enough carbon dioxide, and eventually the pH balance of the blood is thrown off and the body shuts down.
Harshbarger said the diagnosis is an interesting one because it's impossible to study. Scientists cannot recreate the conditions of such an encounter, he said.
"You can't do an experimental study where you put someone in a psychotic state. There's no way to reproduce it. All these deaths have these factors in common, even when Tasers are not involved."
Police or correctional personnel often use Tasers in trying to regain control of an out-of-control person. As a result, people often assume that the Tasers are responsible for the death - an assumption the device's manufacturer, Taser International, tries vigorously to combat.
"Taser International is very strong-handed and bullying and very aggressive." Harshbarger said, "They sponsor studies to say Tasers can't kill."
And, he says, "Really, Tasers don't, at least in animal studies."
Harshbarger says it would take a very special circumstance for a Taser to cause someone's death directly.
But excited delirium is a diagnosis that can only be reached by process of elimination, Harshbarger said. Pathologists rule out everything else before labeling a death the result of excited delirium.
"The problem is, people die with all these other things - heart disease, manic state, often drugs are on board and they are Tasered," Harshbarger said. "Throw in deep pockets, and families are always convinced that governmental agencies are in the wrong. Then you have defense and plaintiff's attorneys involved."
Dr. Mark Kroll, who sits on the Taser International board, predicted that Carlock's death also will be ruled to have been caused by excited delirium.
However, he disagrees with Harshbarger on how to tell. There are scientific ways to determine whether a death was due to excited delirium, Kroll said.
"There's a checklist with about 18 things you look for," he said. "You look for psychosis, incoherent speech, great stamina, prolonged struggle, yelling, screaming."
Then, he said, a pathologist can look at the pattern of the victim's heart, the acidity of the blood, muscle breakdown.
"Some people suggest that it's a diagnosis of exclusion, but it's based on very, very sound physiology. We are designed with limits," he said.
Williams said watching someone be stunned with a Taser is itself often a frightening experience, and that makes it almost impossible for some people to believe that a Taser won't directly cause someone to die.
"You see people scream and see them in pain, and it's ugly looking. (But) at the end of five seconds it's over.
"The use of force is dirty business," he said. "At the same time, it's a necessary part of police work."
Sarah Antonacci can be reached at 788-1529 and sarah.antonacci@sj-r.com.
Comments
great and informative post. i am a Correctional officer and got into this argument here on GB a few weeks ago after the man in vancuver was "tasered to Death"
more people have to have this understanding of what actually happens in an altercation with an individual
As far as I know, not a single one has died as a result.