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Democrats Report No Abuse At Gitmo
Night Stalker
Member Posts: 11,967
Washington Times
June 28, 2005
Pg. 1
Democrats Report No Abuse At Gitmo
Visitors back keeping camp
By Stephen Dinan, The Washington Times
Two Democratic senators just back from reviewing U.S. detention facilities and interrogations at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, said they saw no signs of abuse and said it would actually be worse to close the facility and transfer the detainees elsewhere.
"I strongly prefer the improved practices and conditions at Camp Delta to the outsourcing of interrogation to countries with a far less significant commitment to human rights," said Sen. Ron Wyden, Oregon Democrat, who toured the U.S. facility along with Sen. Ben Nelson, Nebraska Democrat.
The two Democrats were joined on the trip by two Republicans, Sen. Jim Bunning of Kentucky and Sen. Michael D. Crapo of Idaho.
Their characterization contrasts with critics, including Democratic Party leaders, who have called for the camp to be closed as a bruise on America's human rights record.
House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi of California called for a commission to document abuses at Guantanamo and worldwide, while the No. 2 Democrat in the Senate, Richard J. Durbin of Illinois, two weeks ago compared interrogation tactics at Guantanamo to those used during the Nazi and Soviet regimes.
"The United States, which each year issues a human rights report holding the world accountable for outrageous conduct, is engaged in the same outrageous conduct when it comes to these prisoners," Mr. Durbin said at the time, citing an FBI agent's e-mail detailing some of the tactics to which the agent objected.
But the four returning senators, in separate Republican and Democrat press conferences yesterday, said they saw no evidence of ongoing abuse.
"Everything we heard about operations there in the past, we'd have to say, was negative. What we saw firsthand was something different," Mr. Nelson said.
Mr. Bunning said he observed six separate interrogations, and only one detainee was questioned while in restraints. Four of the six detainees spoke to their interrogators, and the other two refused to answer questions. The interrogators were usually women, and the translators were usually men, Mr. Bunning said.
Mr. Crapo said of the 70,000 people captured and detained globally in the war on terror, only 800 have been taken to Guantanamo. Many of those have been released or moved to other facilities, leaving 520 at Camp Delta.
He said there have been 400 visits by 1,000 reporters to the facility and that nearly 20 senators, a larger number of House members and 100 congressional staff members have visited the camp.
A delegation from the House of Representatives made a similar trip during the weekend, and one member reported similar findings.
"The detainees' meal was as good as any I had in my 31 years of Army Guard service, and I can see why the prisoners this year gained five pounds over last year," said Rep. Joe Wilson, South Carolina Republican.
Asked how they knew they were seeing real operations rather than a staged display, both Republican and Democratic senators said that they had access to everything and that they trusted the troops they talked with from their own states.
The Democrats did agree with Mrs. Pelosi's call for better-defined rules about who should be detained at Guantanamo.
"You have this state of legal limbo where it's not clear what the rules are," Mr. Wyden said. "The fact is it's a process that is not taking place in accord with any federal statute considered or debated by Congress."
But the two Republicans maintained the problem is not in the way the United States defines the detainees, saying they are treated as well as or better than the Geneva Conventions would require for prisoners of war.
Mr. Crapo said the U.S. definition combines directives from the president and the secretary of defense and Supreme Court rulings about the legal options available to detainees.
He said it is now up to the international community to decide on standards of treatment for detainees who do not qualify for prisoner-of-war status and fall outside of regular law-enforcement options.
"I don't think any such agreement would ultimately result in a higher standard; it might result in an agreed standard," Mr. Crapo said.
NSDQ!
www.nightstalkers.com
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -- John Stewart Mill
June 28, 2005
Pg. 1
Democrats Report No Abuse At Gitmo
Visitors back keeping camp
By Stephen Dinan, The Washington Times
Two Democratic senators just back from reviewing U.S. detention facilities and interrogations at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, said they saw no signs of abuse and said it would actually be worse to close the facility and transfer the detainees elsewhere.
"I strongly prefer the improved practices and conditions at Camp Delta to the outsourcing of interrogation to countries with a far less significant commitment to human rights," said Sen. Ron Wyden, Oregon Democrat, who toured the U.S. facility along with Sen. Ben Nelson, Nebraska Democrat.
The two Democrats were joined on the trip by two Republicans, Sen. Jim Bunning of Kentucky and Sen. Michael D. Crapo of Idaho.
Their characterization contrasts with critics, including Democratic Party leaders, who have called for the camp to be closed as a bruise on America's human rights record.
House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi of California called for a commission to document abuses at Guantanamo and worldwide, while the No. 2 Democrat in the Senate, Richard J. Durbin of Illinois, two weeks ago compared interrogation tactics at Guantanamo to those used during the Nazi and Soviet regimes.
"The United States, which each year issues a human rights report holding the world accountable for outrageous conduct, is engaged in the same outrageous conduct when it comes to these prisoners," Mr. Durbin said at the time, citing an FBI agent's e-mail detailing some of the tactics to which the agent objected.
But the four returning senators, in separate Republican and Democrat press conferences yesterday, said they saw no evidence of ongoing abuse.
"Everything we heard about operations there in the past, we'd have to say, was negative. What we saw firsthand was something different," Mr. Nelson said.
Mr. Bunning said he observed six separate interrogations, and only one detainee was questioned while in restraints. Four of the six detainees spoke to their interrogators, and the other two refused to answer questions. The interrogators were usually women, and the translators were usually men, Mr. Bunning said.
Mr. Crapo said of the 70,000 people captured and detained globally in the war on terror, only 800 have been taken to Guantanamo. Many of those have been released or moved to other facilities, leaving 520 at Camp Delta.
He said there have been 400 visits by 1,000 reporters to the facility and that nearly 20 senators, a larger number of House members and 100 congressional staff members have visited the camp.
A delegation from the House of Representatives made a similar trip during the weekend, and one member reported similar findings.
"The detainees' meal was as good as any I had in my 31 years of Army Guard service, and I can see why the prisoners this year gained five pounds over last year," said Rep. Joe Wilson, South Carolina Republican.
Asked how they knew they were seeing real operations rather than a staged display, both Republican and Democratic senators said that they had access to everything and that they trusted the troops they talked with from their own states.
The Democrats did agree with Mrs. Pelosi's call for better-defined rules about who should be detained at Guantanamo.
"You have this state of legal limbo where it's not clear what the rules are," Mr. Wyden said. "The fact is it's a process that is not taking place in accord with any federal statute considered or debated by Congress."
But the two Republicans maintained the problem is not in the way the United States defines the detainees, saying they are treated as well as or better than the Geneva Conventions would require for prisoners of war.
Mr. Crapo said the U.S. definition combines directives from the president and the secretary of defense and Supreme Court rulings about the legal options available to detainees.
He said it is now up to the international community to decide on standards of treatment for detainees who do not qualify for prisoner-of-war status and fall outside of regular law-enforcement options.
"I don't think any such agreement would ultimately result in a higher standard; it might result in an agreed standard," Mr. Crapo said.
NSDQ!
www.nightstalkers.com
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -- John Stewart Mill
Comments
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened." Winston Churchill
volenti non fit injuria
"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
Your understanding of the Geneva Convention is a little out of date.
According to Convention III, Part I, Article 4, subsection 6 reads:
Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
Now if any of the Gitmo detainees were taken during the course of our invasion of either Afghanistan or Iraq, they would be covered by the Geneva Convention for the humane treatment of prisoners. It also assumes that they were fighting in adherence to the Conventions.
So, in a nutshell - if they broke it, they bought it.
But you cannot assume that we can automatically and without repurcussion kill 'em all and let God sort them out. The Geneva Convention is very, VERY inclusive on what it considers an enemy combatant worthy of POW status.
And, unfortunately, most of the Gitmo detainees qualify.
[}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)]
I like what Nem says:
Here's a solution to the mistreatment problems: execute the inmates. We would be entirely within our rights and powers under the Geneva accords as their status as unlawful combatants accords them nothing in the way of rights or privileges. We could have lined them up and shot them on the battlefield in Afghanistan and it would have been a straightforward exercise in tactical security. Likewise, we are under no legal or treaty obligation to continue treating them as humanely as we have, so, don't like how we treat them? Write your senator demanding their execution. Problem solved.
[}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)]
JBoss......Fear No Fish/peace through superior firepower/If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier!!!!!!!!!A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.
--- Sigmond Freud
Merely pointing out that it's not that simple. And carried out after the fact without a trial or representation would be considered a war crime since they are already in custody and pose no threat to our military personnel.
You want an easy way to get around this?
Lethal force is allowed under the Geneva Convention if the prisoner attempts to escape and ignores your warnings.
So if they attempt to escape (singly or in groups), yell "Freeze!" first and then shoot them. Totally legal and well within our rights as signatories to the Geneva Conventions.
"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
How the hell do they qualify? They were terrorists long before we invaded Afghanistan and didn't just spontaneously pick up arms to fight an invading army or even attempt to organize themselves into recognizable units, they didn't take up arms openly (hit and run guerilla raids and then melting back into the civilian populace hardly qualify as "openly") and remind me agains what laws and customs or war they afforded our forces? Oh, that's right, NONE! They are illegal combatants and we would be just as justified in executing them as we were the Germans we discovered behind our lines, wearing our uniforms and driving our vehicles in France in '44. They should count themselves lucky we didn't.
"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
MLMorgan
How the hell do they qualify? They were terrorists long before we invaded Afghanistan and didn't just spontaneously pick up arms to fight an invading army or even attempt to organize themselves into recognizable units, they didn't take up arms openly (hit and run guerilla raids and then melting back into the civilian populace hardly qualify as "openly") and remind me agains what laws and customs or war they afforded our forces? Oh, that's right, NONE! They are illegal combatants and we would be just as justified in executing them as we were the Germans we discovered behind our lines, wearing our uniforms and driving our vehicles in France in '44. They should count themselves lucky we didn't.
"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
MLMorgan