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USPS website error, handguns shipment, update
foo
Member Posts: 93 ✭✭
To those that read and replied to my earlier posting that "USPS won't allow handguns to be shipped" I hope my posting is incorrect but the information I gave came directly from the Postal Inspector of the Washington Division. I have his business card in front of me along with that of the ATF agent also attending the meeting. How it came about:
I won an auction here on GunBroker in early February. I sent my payment and FFL information to the seller. The seller correctly addressed and shipped the handgun to my FFL and included a copy of their FFL in the package. The postal carrier delivered the package to the wrong address. (the package was addressed correctly, the postal carrier made a mistake). The person it was mistakenly delivered to opened the package and then called the local Sheriff who then called me. I contacted my FFL who was then going to pick it up from the Sheriff's office. Before he could, someone contacted the ATF who then picked up the gun and started a whole investigation. A week ago a senior ATF agent and the USPS Postal Inspector for the Washington division met with me directly as part of the investigation. (of course we all know nothing is simple when the government gets involved)
*The ATF agent was great to deal with. I got the impression that if common sense were allowed the whole thing would have been resolved immediately, although the USPS had taken a position that sending any handgun thru the US mail was NOT legal except under very limited circumstances according to the Postal inspector . During the meeting I showed both agents a printed section from the USPS website, FAQ that clearly stated a handgun could be shipped by manufacturers and dealers! The postal Inspector claimed that there was obviously an error in the USPS own website and showed me the section in his code book that specifically disallowed handguns to be shipped USPS except under very very limited circumstances............ Maybe he is wrong but he is the authority having jurisdiction over the USPS just like a local law enforcement officer enforcing the local or state law.... I didn't post it to get folks stirred up...... I am simply posting it to make other gun enthusiast's and sellers/buyers like myself of what I experienced and what the Postal Inspector, representing the United States Postal service told me face to face. He stated their website would be changed to reflect the current code?? He could be wrong, I hope he is, but like I'm sure a bunch of FFL holders out there have experienced, arguing with the postal inspector about postal laws is like arguing with a local or district ATF agent about his or hers interpretation of the gun laws? By the way, I still have not received the gun even though all parties agree that the postal carrier delivered the package to the wrong address. Got to love the system!!!
I won an auction here on GunBroker in early February. I sent my payment and FFL information to the seller. The seller correctly addressed and shipped the handgun to my FFL and included a copy of their FFL in the package. The postal carrier delivered the package to the wrong address. (the package was addressed correctly, the postal carrier made a mistake). The person it was mistakenly delivered to opened the package and then called the local Sheriff who then called me. I contacted my FFL who was then going to pick it up from the Sheriff's office. Before he could, someone contacted the ATF who then picked up the gun and started a whole investigation. A week ago a senior ATF agent and the USPS Postal Inspector for the Washington division met with me directly as part of the investigation. (of course we all know nothing is simple when the government gets involved)
*The ATF agent was great to deal with. I got the impression that if common sense were allowed the whole thing would have been resolved immediately, although the USPS had taken a position that sending any handgun thru the US mail was NOT legal except under very limited circumstances according to the Postal inspector . During the meeting I showed both agents a printed section from the USPS website, FAQ that clearly stated a handgun could be shipped by manufacturers and dealers! The postal Inspector claimed that there was obviously an error in the USPS own website and showed me the section in his code book that specifically disallowed handguns to be shipped USPS except under very very limited circumstances............ Maybe he is wrong but he is the authority having jurisdiction over the USPS just like a local law enforcement officer enforcing the local or state law.... I didn't post it to get folks stirred up...... I am simply posting it to make other gun enthusiast's and sellers/buyers like myself of what I experienced and what the Postal Inspector, representing the United States Postal service told me face to face. He stated their website would be changed to reflect the current code?? He could be wrong, I hope he is, but like I'm sure a bunch of FFL holders out there have experienced, arguing with the postal inspector about postal laws is like arguing with a local or district ATF agent about his or hers interpretation of the gun laws? By the way, I still have not received the gun even though all parties agree that the postal carrier delivered the package to the wrong address. Got to love the system!!!
Comments
FFL is included in the limited circumstances of those who can receive a handgun by USPS.
Merc
It seems your case is the exception to common sense and the inspector you are dealing with is a utter moron.
Shipping guns by UPS, FEDEX and USPS is always a crap shoot, usually handled just fine but the old saying is also true. "Some days you are the windshield some days you are the bug."
Did your shipping FFL file this form
at the post office he shipped from?
If the answer is yes, he did it right
according to the law and Postal regs.
If the answer is no, he did it wrong.
Foo, here's the deal...
Did your shipping FFL file this form
at the post office he shipped from?
If the answer is yes, he did it right
according to the law and Postal regs.
If the answer is no, he did it wrong.
Still can't admit you are wrong? Sheesh.
Merc
Relax, go get a nice cold beer, sit down in front of your computer and search the GB Auctions for a clue. You seriously need to be less clueless.
Here's a couple to help you out:
http://www.GunBroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=473542394
http://www.GunBroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=474012943
Apparently they didn't file that form. The ATF agent showed me a picture of the packaging the seller used. It was a priority box covered with $25.00 worth of stamps on it. I had to agree with the agent that it looked like something the uni-bomber would have sent. quote:Originally posted by ChrisInTempe
Foo, here's the deal...
Did your shipping FFL file this form
at the post office he shipped from?
If the answer is yes, he did it right
according to the law and Postal regs.
If the answer is no, he did it wrong.
...
Well now finally the important facts emerge!
The shipper failed to follow the law and the regulations!? That's all this never ending story is really about!
YES - If a shipper fails to obey laws and regulations, the shipment is illegal. Doesn't matter if it's guns or a bag of potato chips. If there's a law or rule not followed, the bureaucrats and guys with badges will get excited about it!
So we are back to the truth of the matter. It is perfectly lawful for an FFL to ship a handgun via USPS so long as that FFL obeys the law and follows USPS regulations.
I am astounded how poorly trained postmasters are in general. Not just the counter clerks, but the person in charge. Have them bring out their manual and show them paragraph 432.21 which VERY CLEARLY defines who can ship handguns. (Anyone can ship a long gun as long as it is shipped to an FFL see 432.3.g) AND form 1508 is not applicable in that instance since the shipper is not required to be an FFL.
Then I point out the paragraph that reads... "Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment " and ask them if they would rather do their job properly or should I have our counsel contact their superiors. Oddly only one has ever chosen to have her superiors notified and amazingly, she was not the postmaster there the next time I checked.
Another interesting fact. ATF agents are often undertrained and poorly informed and what they tell you cannot be admitted as evidence in court (whether they are right or wrong) If you write to the ATF Legal office in Atlanta with a question they are required to answer you in writing and their answer is admissible.
If your seller did not fill out a form 1508 when shipping (or have one on file at that PO as most that ship regularly do) he will likely get a visit from the man and have a full audit. He really should know better.
OTOH, I don't think that admissibility in court is a problem with foo's case; at least, not yet. The ATF agent is probably like most I have met - just trying to do a good job. Nobody likes going to court, & it is best in most cases if the various agencies involved could just use common sense to work out a simple misunderstanding.
Neal
Only the shippers Post Office would know if the shipper filed a 1508. The receiving end would have no knowledge of that whatsoever.
I am astounded how poorly trained postmasters are in general. Not just the counter clerks, but the person in charge. Have them bring out their manual and show them paragraph 432.21 which VERY CLEARLY defines who can ship handguns. (Anyone can ship a long gun as long as it is shipped to an FFL see 432.3.g) AND form 1508 is not applicable in that instance since the shipper is not required to be an FFL.
Then I point out the paragraph that reads... "Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment " and ask them if they would rather do their job properly or should I have our counsel contact their superiors. Oddly only one has ever chosen to have her superiors notified and amazingly, she was not the postmaster there the next time I checked.
Another interesting fact. ATF agents are often undertrained and poorly informed and what they tell you cannot be admitted as evidence in court (whether they are right or wrong) If you write to the ATF Legal office in Atlanta with a question they are required to answer you in writing and their answer is admissible.
If your seller did not fill out a form 1508 when shipping (or have one on file at that PO as most that ship regularly do) he will likely get a visit from the man and have a full audit. He really should know better.
Good post Captain. People mailing firearms must be ready to bump heads in a crowded lobby with the postmasters and clerks, or be wrongly turned away at times.
At no time did the inspector make mention of the 1508 form. He simply stated that handguns were not allowed to be shipped except in a very narrow set of circumstances and showed my a code site to support his ascertion. I would imagine there are a lot of folks like myself out here that when the "agent or inspector in charge" tell us something we feel obliged to accept their directive especially when lacking the depth of knowledge on the subject. My posting wasn't intended to upset sensitive readers but to share what was presented as fact to me by the authorities having jurisdiction. You appear to know the laws discussed here likely better than those I was requested to meet with enforcing them. Again, thank you for the constructive information.
quote:Originally posted by CaptFun
Only the shippers Post Office would know if the shipper filed a 1508. The receiving end would have no knowledge of that whatsoever.
I am astounded how poorly trained postmasters are in general. Not just the counter clerks, but the person in charge. Have them bring out their manual and show them paragraph 432.21 which VERY CLEARLY defines who can ship handguns. (Anyone can ship a long gun as long as it is shipped to an FFL see 432.3.g) AND form 1508 is not applicable in that instance since the shipper is not required to be an FFL.
Then I point out the paragraph that reads... "Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment " and ask them if they would rather do their job properly or should I have our counsel contact their superiors. Oddly only one has ever chosen to have her superiors notified and amazingly, she was not the postmaster there the next time I checked.
Another interesting fact. ATF agents are often undertrained and poorly informed and what they tell you cannot be admitted as evidence in court (whether they are right or wrong) If you write to the ATF Legal office in Atlanta with a question they are required to answer you in writing and their answer is admissible.
If your seller did not fill out a form 1508 when shipping (or have one on file at that PO as most that ship regularly do) he will likely get a visit from the man and have a full audit. He really should know better.
quote:Originally posted by CaptFun
Our attorneys used to be in the same building as the ATF legal office. We spent a lot of time early in the history of GunBroker making sure that we understood the finer points of the law and that the site was constructed and operated in a manner to be as fully compliant with the law as possible. Post office employees must have contests to see which one can perform the absolute worst. (And FedEx I am convinced has contests to see who can break the most stuff)