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Ammo
A J Christ
Member Posts: 7,534 ✭
does anyone know of a site on the internet that sells ammo?
Comments
53 minutes ago
I have received calls from 2 distributors today telling me that shortages are now occurring and even the manufacturers are running short due to the spike in demand. I would never create panic in an attempt to make a sale, however, the shortages and allocations are already appearing so if you need to make your purchases I would do it now before it really gets bad.
Bought up all of their 22 ammo except for 2 boxes of thunderbolt. They are about out of everything except 12, 20 and 28 gauge shotgun shells and a few rifle in 30-30 and the high dollar 223 stuff.
Get it before that 500% tax hits.
Turns out Lake City Match 7.62 from '85.
$50.00 got me 567 rounds.
Told him I'll take all of that he can find at that price.
They sale Ammo cheap but their website looks funny and when I was checking them out I went and made an account with them but I seem to cant get in contact with them and i get blank emails from them. Im not going to buy anything or put im card info on there untill i fine out more about them. like if their a real store.
45acp- 122 rds of 230 gr reloads FMJ
9mm- 20 rds of Winchester PDX1 bonded Hollowpionts 147 gr
50 ros of fmj lellier & Bellot
Shoutgun 10 rds of Winchester Magnum 00 buckshot 12 gauge
250 rds of federal target load 12 gauge
308- 50 rounds of Magtech 150 gr FMJ
22LR- 500 rd brick of winchester wildcat 22
AR15- 183 round of ammo that I forgot the name of
200 rd 5.56 green battlepack
700 rds of M193 55gr FMJ
400 rds of wolf 62 grain FMJ
Waiting to be reloaded 1k of 55 gr 223 FMJ
1k of 62 grain 223 FMJ
1k of 45 acp 230 grain FMJ
dont know what this is this is the green battle pack.
here is what protects all of this while we are not home.
I bought the stuff cheaper than dirt. It is the kind with the black/gray casings.
Is it the ammo or something up with the gun?
Thanks
Larry
Thanks guys.
"Military" hollow point?
YES !! ......, quote:Lake City Match 7.62 from '85.
It's interesting that Sierra still calls them Hollow Point.
The USA is not a party to the Hague Declaration (not the Geneva Conventions) but we did agree to abide by it. Regardless, the whole issue has become uncertain because the International Conventions were written based on civilized warfare between nations, whereas today it's between nations and terrorists. LEOs routinely use hollow point ammunition and it doesn't seem to be a problem for them.
Ray
NM bullets are not actually hollow point, even though they are described as BTHP (Boat tail Hollow Point) they are actually more like "open tip". These bullets do not have an exposed core will not expand. I am not anything like an expert in ballistics but the reasoning behind the open tip has to do with the actual procedure used to make the bullet jacket and not with offering expansion.
Good description.
You must be a lawyer. ;-)
Hollow point bullets are made the exact same way as the so-called open tip. I know that the SMK hollow points (and others of the same design) are not intended to expand but the fact is that they often do. Many guys use SMKs and VLDs for hunting. OTOH, many of the hollow points that are designed to expand, often do not because of a variety of factors including velocity and what they hit. Even a FMJ can, and often does, inflict more damage than a soft point, hollow point, and open tip.
I still think the "open tips" are about 90% C.Y.A.
JMHO
Ray
Neal
Lake City is owned by ATK. They have a defense division & a commercial division. They own the Federal Premium & CCI brands. Same production facility, just different contracts. They make whatever you are willing to pay for.
Neal
Lake City AAP is Government owned. It is operated by ATK. They manufacture the military ammunition. Most of the Federal is manufactured in Anoka.
NM bullets are not actually hollow point, even though they are described as BTHP (Boat tail Hollow Point) they are actually more like "open tip". These bullets do not have an exposed core will not expand. I am not anything like an expert in ballistics but the reasoning behind the open tip has to do with the actual procedure used to make the bullet jacket and not with offering expansion.
Remember reading about this and it has something to do with stabilizing the bullet without affecting its speed.
Here is something I found.
quote:Military evaluation of the MatchKing (designated M852) proved its superiority over the 173-grain M118 FMJ projectile that preceded it. Army tests noted a 36% increase in accuracy with the MatchKing at 300 meters and a 32% accuracy increase at 600 meters. Marine Corps tests produced similar accuracy figures. The National Guard determined that the M852 provided better bullet groups at 200 and 600 meters than the M118 under all conditions.
Confusion continued within military circles. In 1985 the AMU sought assistance from Colonel Martin L. Fackler, Medical Corps, U.S. Army, an experienced combat surgeon and chief of the Army's wound ballistics laboratory at Letterman Army Institute of Research. Dr. Fackler's tests - firing the M852 into ordnance gelatin (20x25x50 centimeter blocks of a 10% weight concentration shot at four degrees centigrade calibrated to reproduce the crush and stretch seen in living animal tissue, a protocol developed by Dr. Fackler widely accepted today) - prompted him to suggest that the MatchKing's terminal ballistics would be improved by expanding the aperture because M852 terminal ballistics were like those of 7.62mm FMJ M80 Ball. Dr. Fackler's suggestion was not accepted. But his test proved the M852 did not "expand or open easily" as proscribed by the 1899 Hague Convention. Confusion continued. In the late 1980s Naval Weapons Support Center Crane procured and tested 7.62 and .300 Winchester Magnum OTM ammunition with specially manufactured polished closed tips for possible sniper training and combat use, based on the belief that the OTM was prohibited for combat use because of its "hollow point." Although tests results were positive, Crane officials expressed concern that the projectile might violate the Hague Declaration because of bullet break up at close range, notwithstanding the fact that fragmentation of the polished closed tip M852 was no greater than U.S. military FMJ M80 Ball, and appreciably less than M80 Ball projectiles used by some NATO militaries.
Individuals judging the MatchKing solely on its appearance failed to consider the foundation law of war principle of distinction. It obligates a government and its military to develop and apply force against an enemy military in a manner that limits risk of injury to innocent civilians. A well-trained military sniper equipped with a contemporary sniper rifle, including its optics, using the most accurate ammunition, is the epitome of distinction. A civilian law enforcement agency using something less than the most accurate sniper ammunition could face potential liability were an innocent civilian killed or injured by a police sniper's shot during a hostage situation, as plaintiff's attorneys would argue that using less-accurate ammunition was negligent when ammunition with significantly greater accuracy was available. This rigid standard does not exist in a combat environment. Nonetheless an important legal obligation was neglected by those who hesitated in requesting approval for combat use of the MatchKing, particularly given the significant increase in accuracy it manifested over the M118.
Caution regarding MatchKing projectile fragmentation was unwarranted. Twentieth Century terminal ballistics history established that FMJ military rifle projectiles sometimes fragment in soft tissue at distances up to 250 meters, dependent upon velocity, angle of projectile yaw at impact, and similar factors. Governments have acknowledged and accepted this phenomenon in international conferences over the past four decades, declining to extend the 1899 Hague Declaration's prohibition beyond bullets designed to "expand or open easily" at every distance.
Hesitation in requesting authorization for M852 combat use faded in 1990 in the lead-up to Operation DESERT STORM, the U.S.-led Coalition effort to liberate Kuwait following Iraq's invasion. The request for legal review was answered in the affirmative the same day. The logistics system was not as responsive. M852 use in DESERT STORM cannot be confirmed.
The .300 Winchester Magnum 190-grain Sierra MatchKing (MK 248 MOD 0) was adopted by the Navy in 1993. In 1993 the Marine Corps identified its expectations for 7.62x51mm accuracy. U.S. Army Tank-Automotive and Armaments Command, Armaments Research, Development and Engineering Center, in conjunction with Lake City Army Ammunition Plant, requested Sierra Bullets to design and build prototype projectiles to meet Marine Corps performance objectives. The M852 was succeeded in 1997 by the 7.62mm Special Ball Long Range M118LR with 175-grain Sierra MatchKing. The 175-grain Sierra MatchKing exceeded Marine Corps requirements. When shooters properly accounted for environmental factors, the 175-grain Sierra MatchKing loaded as the Federal Premium Gold Medal Match reliably struck targets at one mile.
The 5.56mm 77-grain Sierra MatchKing MK 262 MOD 0/1 (DODIC AA53) was fielded in 2000. Navy (Crane) product improvement programs led to the 7.62 MK 316 MOD 0 Special Ball, Long Range (DODIC AB39), continuing to employ the 175-grain Sierra MatchKing, and the 220-grain Sierra MatchKing .300 Winchester Magnum Match MK 248 MOD 1 (DODIC AB43) in 2008. In each case wound ballistics tests based upon Dr. Fackler's protocol, today an integral part of the legal review of new military small arms ammunition, reconfirmed Dr. Fackler's 1985 conclusion that the terminal ballistics of OTM projectiles are similar to those of FMJ Ball, that is, they do not "expand or open easily" in soft tissue.
Experts in The Netherlands and Switzerland further confirmed the legality of OTM ammunition for military sniper use. In 2001, a Swiss ballistics expert at the Swiss Low Noise Ballistics Facility described the OTM as a "hollow point that doesn't perform like a hollow point" with respect to its terminal ballistics. Today OTM ammunition is offered by a number of manufacturers for law enforcement and military use and has been adopted and employed by other militaries in the Afghanistan and Iraq conflicts. OTM fielding in other calibers, such as .300 Norma Magnum and .338 Lapua Magnum are under consideration.
Misunderstanding through ignorance persists. In 2006 a U.S. Army sniper approached his ammunition supply point in Iraq to request a re-supply of the M118LR. The civilian contractor took the ammunition out of its storage space, looked at the marking on the box stating "NOT FOR COMBAT USE" and refused to issue the ammunition to the sniper, instead instructing him to down load less-accurate linked M80 ball for use in his sniper rifle. The sniper turned to an Army judge advocate (JAG) for assistance. The JAG agreed with the ASP contractor. When provided a copy of the 1997 legal review of the M1118LR containing a detailed explanation as to its legality and rationale for approving its combat use, the JAG questioned the legal review's value because it was "nine years old." Legal reviews of weapons and ammunition do not have a "shelf life," but are "forever" documents. The situation ultimately was resolved in the sniper's favor, but not before it gained national media attention.
This incident was avoidable. The "not for combat use" language was placed on OTM ammunition boxes in 1980 when it was approved for military competition use. When the M852 and M118LR were approved for combat use, no one told the contractor who made the boxes to remove the offending language. It was deleted when the current box was ordered (illustration, lower right corner). Confusion bred by ignorance continues in some circles. An ally recently (and quickly) rejected a private citizen's assertion that OTM ammunition violated the 1899 Hague Declaration.
The adage "don't judge a book by its covers" is applicable with respect to the Sierra MatchKing and comparable open tip match projectiles. Sierra Bullets' characterization of the MatchKing as a "hollow point" likely exacerbated the practice of judging the projectile based solely on its appearance. Sierra Bullets has remedied this somewhat by referring to it as "open tip match" in its invoices. The problem was further aggravated by the failure of many to read and understand the text of the1899 Hague Declaration, and to incorrectly assume that any projectile with a "hollow point" would "expand or open easily" at all distances. The International Criminal Court limited the prohibition to military use of bullets designed to expand or open easily only when employed to "uselessly aggravate suffering or the wounding effect upon the target." In this respect the international community belatedly arrived at the point argued by Captain Crozier in 1899.