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Patton and the present day Marine drama..
Night Stalker
Member Posts: 11,967
Is it a matter of "scope and/or scale", or is it a completely different issue?
NS
General George S. Patton
"I drove to the Rhine River and went across on the pontoon bridge. I stopped in the middle to take a piss and then picked up some dirt on the far side in emulation of William the Conqueror." General George S. Patton, March 1945
Marines Piss on Taliban Dead: Understanding War Crimes
The outrage expressed by Secretary of Defense Panetta, Secretary of State Clinton, and other official spokesmen is genuine. Presuming this is authentic-and there's no reason to think otherwise, as Panetta and Clinton have acknowledged-it's quite probably a war crime. It's certainly a violation of the values of the United States Marine Corps, the country they serve, and basic human decency.
It's especially outrageous coming from US Marines, whose ethos demands that they risk life and limb to recover their own fallen comrades-in-arms. They certainly knew how literally pissing on the dead would be perceived.
These Marines will certainly be punished, quite severely, for their actions and rightly so.
But, while saddened by the video, I'm not surprised. Such incidents happen in war. They always have and always will. The difference, of course, is that they now get videotaped and can go viral on the Internet in a matter of hours.
Militaries take decent young men and women-mostly men-and train them to kill other human beings on command. Remarkably, they're supposed to kill members of the opposing force without hesitation while at the same time taking a high degree of personal risk to safeguard noncombatants-including enemy fighters who have surrendered and/or are injured and out of the fight. More remarkably, achieving this seemingly absurd standard is the norm.
In order to kill people you've never met and who have done nothing to you other than being born in another country, one has to dehumanize and vilify the enemy. They're given derisive nicknames, made the butt of dark jokes, and every cultural difference exaggerated.
In the cases of the recent wars Americans have fought, that often takes on uncomfortable racial, ethnic, and religious undertones. But it happened in World War II, when the enemy (in the European theater, at least) could well have been a not-too-distant relative, too.
So, it's regrettable but hardly shocking that occasionally this coping tool spills over into horrific actions that even most other warriors in theater will condemn.
While these incidents are far too frequent, they're still exceedingly rare. Hell, even the Taliban's leadership seems to understand that, having already declared that this won't impact negotiations. But that doesn't mean that they won't extract whatever propaganda value they can out of the video, which certainly lends ammunition to those who want to believe America is at war against Muslims.
Further, it can't help but undermine support for the war effort here at home. It just adds to the notion that something very ugly is going on "over there" and that it's time to bring it to an end.
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/marines-piss-on-taliban-dead-understanding-war-crimes/
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NS
General George S. Patton
"I drove to the Rhine River and went across on the pontoon bridge. I stopped in the middle to take a piss and then picked up some dirt on the far side in emulation of William the Conqueror." General George S. Patton, March 1945
Marines Piss on Taliban Dead: Understanding War Crimes
The outrage expressed by Secretary of Defense Panetta, Secretary of State Clinton, and other official spokesmen is genuine. Presuming this is authentic-and there's no reason to think otherwise, as Panetta and Clinton have acknowledged-it's quite probably a war crime. It's certainly a violation of the values of the United States Marine Corps, the country they serve, and basic human decency.
It's especially outrageous coming from US Marines, whose ethos demands that they risk life and limb to recover their own fallen comrades-in-arms. They certainly knew how literally pissing on the dead would be perceived.
These Marines will certainly be punished, quite severely, for their actions and rightly so.
But, while saddened by the video, I'm not surprised. Such incidents happen in war. They always have and always will. The difference, of course, is that they now get videotaped and can go viral on the Internet in a matter of hours.
Militaries take decent young men and women-mostly men-and train them to kill other human beings on command. Remarkably, they're supposed to kill members of the opposing force without hesitation while at the same time taking a high degree of personal risk to safeguard noncombatants-including enemy fighters who have surrendered and/or are injured and out of the fight. More remarkably, achieving this seemingly absurd standard is the norm.
In order to kill people you've never met and who have done nothing to you other than being born in another country, one has to dehumanize and vilify the enemy. They're given derisive nicknames, made the butt of dark jokes, and every cultural difference exaggerated.
In the cases of the recent wars Americans have fought, that often takes on uncomfortable racial, ethnic, and religious undertones. But it happened in World War II, when the enemy (in the European theater, at least) could well have been a not-too-distant relative, too.
So, it's regrettable but hardly shocking that occasionally this coping tool spills over into horrific actions that even most other warriors in theater will condemn.
While these incidents are far too frequent, they're still exceedingly rare. Hell, even the Taliban's leadership seems to understand that, having already declared that this won't impact negotiations. But that doesn't mean that they won't extract whatever propaganda value they can out of the video, which certainly lends ammunition to those who want to believe America is at war against Muslims.
Further, it can't help but undermine support for the war effort here at home. It just adds to the notion that something very ugly is going on "over there" and that it's time to bring it to an end.
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/marines-piss-on-taliban-dead-understanding-war-crimes/
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Comments
Not that I particularly care about the incident, but I don't see much correlation between taking a leak in a river and peeing on a dead body. As for Patton; being made Governor of Bavaria put him on the sidelines and off the "radar" for the rest of his military career (cut short by his death in an auto accident).
MTC,
Patton's message was clearly "piss on you Germans, I'm here, I won, deal with it."
Is the message of the young Marine's that much different?
I want to be clear, I am not arguing for/against a specific position on this matter, merely making a connection within a historical context, for the consideration of the group.
NS
I must have slept through that brainwashing class!! [;)]
What we try to do is ensure our message is consistent with our actions. Sometimes we fall short, but the vast majority of the time we are spot on!
While I do not agree with what this squad of Marines did, I understand why they did it. In fact, if I were to look back objectively on my late-teenage years and early 20's, I wish I could say I was as mature as these young warriors have been forced to become..... but, alas, I probably was not.
In my humble opinion, the only people in Afghanistan who are pissed-off (on [:D]) about this incident are members of the Taliban. I guarantee MANY local Afghans would willingly take a shot at dead Taliban fighters in response to the deadly, savage nature and treatment that organization has delivered to the tribes in the areas they ravage on a daily basis.
NS
EDIT for spelling [:I]
Wulfmann
"Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
Otto von Bismarck
These Taliban infidels deserve desecration and worse for thier sins.
God will certainly punish these unfaithful arrogant Taliban murderers.
I thought they locked a thread on this yesterday
Can you say?
What gives? Seems fella's are still discussing various aspects of the event in an adult manner.
Hell, I guess we could go back to the "pull my finger" threads for the evening. [;)] [:D]
NS
Remingtonoaks,
What gives? Seems fella's are still discussing various aspects of the event in an adult manner.
Hell, I guess we could go back to the "pull my finger" threads for the evening. [;)] [:D]
NS
Yes, but trust me, it will go south, it always does with this crowd[:(]
If I were a member of the Court, I most likely would have to find them guilty. My recommendation would be a non-punitive letter of caution or a letter of reprimand. Said letter to read like a commendation with recommendation for promotion.
NS, I think my position is similar to yours. You and I both know these Marines have to face disciplinary action and given the political climate that will probably be a General Courts-Martial.
If I were a member of the Court, I most likely would have to find them guilty. My recommendation would be a non-punitive letter of caution or a letter of reprimand. Said letter to read like a commendation with recommendation for promotion.
+ 1
NS, I think my position is similar to yours. You and I both know these Marines have to face disciplinary action and given the political climate that will probably be a General Courts-Martial.
If I were a member of the Court, I most likely would have to find them guilty. My recommendation would be a non-punitive letter of caution or a letter of reprimand. Said letter to read like a commendation with recommendation for promotion.
Very well crafted James... Very well indeed! [;)]
Did John Wayne really say this quote?