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Very important question regarding the ATF...
n/a
Member Posts: 168,427 ✭
I am fairly new to this board, and I am also a soon to be FFL holder. Lately, I have read some very disturbing and shocking opinions and speculation about the ATF. To tell you the truth, some of you guys have got me scared (sp?) to death that I'm going to accidently make some stupid mistake and the Fed's are going to be all over me...or worse yet, that they are going to be all over me anyway, just b/c I'm going to be a FFL holder. Up to this point, my limited interaction with the ATF has been very pleasant and professional. I have had no reason, whatsoever, to be concerned. Some of what I have read here has caused me to wonder... I guess my question would be: Does the average, law abiding, FFL holder have anything to worry about with the ATF???? I will obviously be trying my very best to follow evey letter of the law, but now I am wondering if that's even enough.?.?. I believe many of you are FFL holders, so I would like to get some honest feedback about this...is this just paranoia that I'm reading about...or is there some truth to it. How have your dealings with the ATF been? Thank you for any input you might be able to give me on this issue.
Eric
Eric
Comments
dipit,dipit,dipit!
I have seen the horror stories too. I can't help but believe that there is another side to the story.
SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the best gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net
Having said that, the concern you have voiced leads me to believe that you are the conscientious kind of person who will read the regs, abide by them, & have absolutely no problem with the fellows with the bulges in the cheap suits.
Neal
Gun control is a steady hand
When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet."
G. Mayes/// Part Time FFL Dealer/No expert on guns by any means just a Gun Loving Nut
Simply signing a piece of paper for a license of any kind does not sign away any consitutional rights. An agent can perform one compliance check on FFL holders each year, more often if a crime is involved with firearms you've sold. You also MUST assist in firearms traces-- failure to do so and your license is pulled. An agent must confine all of his inspection activites to areas of your licensed premisis and will further limit this to the areas where firearms and records are stored. An actual physical search during a compliance check is nearly unheard of unless a crime is suspected, in which case local law enforcement will assist.
If your business is in your home and you keep your inventory in one designated area, he will venture no farther. He has no right to go wondering around your home and most won't even ask to use the toilet. If you have guns scattered all over your house then this was your own fault! Keep them together in one easy to access area. If you keep your business totally confined to an "out-building" on your property then the agent won't even enter your home unless you give permission (or offer coffee or a soft drink), he'll just head out back to the shed and start the inspection. If you don't want the agent on your property at all then you can tell him to stay out and he'll go away, but you'll forfit your FFL and he'll simply come back with a warrant and you can expect the mother of all inspections! Keep your nose clean, don't do anything stupid, don't do special "favors" for friends who ask you to look the other way on the paperwork and you'll do fine.
Mark T. Christian
Gun control is a steady hand
Eric
It might not be a bad idea to invest in a fifty-cent
spiral-bound notebook and keep a journal of all FFL
related correspondence, questions asked, dates, individuals
you spoke with, etc.
It is very possible two people working for the same
agency might offer differing opinions.
Your memory may fail, but your little book won't.
p.s. Clarification of at least one "troubling" post
will be forthcoming and provided to those who care.
[^][^][^][^]
ATF
If you have any questions call them.
"Save the Whalers, they need jobs too."
FOLLOW-UP ON ARIZONA GUN RAID
November 3, 2000
http://www.KeepAndBearArms.com
We're publishing Neal Knox's writeup -- which will appear in Shotgun News -- before the election in hopes it will help a few more people understand the gravity of this election. Mr. Knox's article is followed by additional information as it relates to the latest assault on a gun dealer.
The initial report on this incident is here, And the below report can be found here.
BATF'S AT IT AGAIN
By Neal Knox
WASHINGTON, D.C. (Nov. 1) -- The Oct. 25 BATF raid on Jerry Michel's Specialty Firearms in Mesa, Ariz., sounded all too familiar -- as if we had turned back the calendar a quarter-century, to the heyday of BATF civil liberties abuses under President Jimmy Carter.
"They were throwing vintage collector's items in mint condition through the air and into a trashcan 10 feet away," Jerry told Angel Shamaya, Director of KeepAndBearArms.Com, who has interviewed Jerry and other witnesses. One such gun was a Winchester 94 Antique, a 1960's era new-in-box commemorative, Jerry told me.
"They took it out of the factory box and pitched it into a plastic garbage can that had a bunch of my other guns in it."
In the 1970's I heard the same kind of story, from several dealers and collectors, including the guy who saw his unfired commemoratives thrown onto a concrete floor -- and got them back test-fired "to determine if they had been used in a crime."
Jerry's story was a reminder of the importance of next week's election, which will be over long before most of you read this column. It will determine not only who sets the legislative agenda, and who appoints the Supreme Court, but it will determine whether, under a President Gore, the BATF ratchets up its infringements of the law and the Constitution, or a President George W. Bush tightens the reins on the Federal gun police.
Jerry's entire stock of guns, plus his personal collection, -- a total of 274 guns, about $300,000 worth -- were taken, along with his records and about 3,000 Form 4473's. The guns ranged from a .50 caliber rifle to a black powder pistol. They included newly customized Ruger 10/22's (some belonging to customers), consignment guns, a pair of Colt Single Actions, military-look semi-autos and legal full autos which Jerry had owned for 15 years.
The Colt Single Actions, with mother-of-pearl grips, were among those taken from their boxes and casually tossed into the garbage cans.
BATF found three Berettas with no serial numbers. Except that they weren't Berettas, they were Brownings with serial numbers under the grips. The raid started with Jerry being enticed out of the shop -- which doubles as his residence -- just a few minutes after he opened. He was grabbed and held by three of some 30 state and Federal officers. The two guns that he routinely carries in the shop were taken from him (though they had to let one arm free so he could show them how to get a Freedom Arms .22 out of its belt buckle holster).
As stunned as he was, he broke out laughing when he saw the swarm of officers. "You must really think I'm dangerous," he told them. The two guns he was carrying were the only ones he was allowed to keep. Other personal guns -- including the full autos and guns he had owned since he was 10 -- clearly marked as not for sale, were carted away. What happened inside the store was videotaped by a surveillance camera. But the BATF took that crucial videotape.
Jerry was handcuffed and taken to Mesa Police HQ by a BATF agent and a Phoenix policeman, read his Miranda rights, and held for about three hours.
"Am I under arrest?," he said he asked.
"No," they replied.
"Can I leave?"
"No, you're being detained."
Other than being told his paperwork wasn't in order, and that he had sold two guns to straw purchasers -- which Jerry angrily denied -- he has never been told the reason for the raid and seizure, nor had any charges been filed by Nov. 1. When he was taken back to his store, he was fingerprinted and had mug shots taken in front of friends and gawkers.
When Angel called BATF he was told that Jerry did not have a Mesa pawnbroker's license, a $100 ticket supposedly required to sell used guns in the city -- which would almost certainly violate the state's preemption law. But Jerry doesn't pawn guns. The Federal interest in Mesa's ordinance is an obscure provision of the law requiring all licensed dealers to be in compliance with local laws and zoning restrictions.
Unlike some other recent much-hyped BATF raid targets, Jerry has no criminal record, "not even a speeding ticket," he told me. In those other raids BATF used highly questionable search warrants to justify fishing expeditions which produced clearly illegal items. The "violation" of Mesa's ordinance may be a way to rummage around for something unlawful. Jerry adamantly denies that he has anything illegal or has knowingly committed any offense. I sure hope he's right.
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION FROM ANGEL SHAMAYA
For clarity's sake, it was actually John Arbon of CPHV.com who was told by ATF that the war against Jerry Michel was waged for his not having a pawn permit. When Neal, Jerry and I spoke on Nov 1, we covered so much ground I can easily understand how Neal arrived at that conclusion, no biggie.
In fact, Jerry and I went to the federal courthouse in Phoenix today to pick up the search warrant affidavit. (For those who don't know, a search warrant affidavit is a written declaration made under oath before a notary public or other authorized officer. In this case, it is the Statement of Probable Cause that serves as the sworn testimony given to the judge to entice him to sign the gun confiscation order.)
The specific "law" the ATF used which relates to the pawn permit is fascinating. According to the affidavit, and I quote precisely, so poor punctuation is on ATF's part:
The definition of a Secondhand Dealer, as defined in MCC Code 5-7-1, is any person engaged in the business of buying, selling trading, exchanging or otherwise dealing in any of the following items; secondhand goods, wares, merchandise, or articles; old stamp old coins and money; and "precious items" as defined in ARS 44-1601. This definition applies whether such business is the principal or sole business carried on, managed or conducted with a branch or department of some other business.
Also according to the affidavit as part of the testimony used to jack Mr. Michel up is a statement that Mr. Michel does have, in good standing, "a valid City of Mesa Transaction Privilege Sales Tax License, #00082967. The affidavit states that he has a "regular" license, but not a "secondhand dealer's license." The villain. Also relating to Mr. Knox's above, to my knowledge and Jerry's, there were no "state" police involved insofar as the State of Arizona is concerned, only City and Federal. Neal offers an apology to all state officers for the oversight. His draft was correct, but we covered a lot of ground that day. Jerry asked me to be brief in relaying the contents of this affidavit, so I will. First, a bit of commentary of the experience of acquiring the affidavit. I called the courthouse to ask if the affidavit had been released to the general public yet. I persisted through the usual maze of recordings until, by accident, I reached a live person. I then persisted until I got to the proper desk in the room where court case records are held.
I said, "In reference to case number _____, will you please confirm that it has been released so I can justify a trip to the downtown area to pick it up?"
"I'm sorry. I can't tell you that over the phone. You can come down here and I will check for you when you get here."
"Ma'am, are you telling me that if I live two hours away, I must invest 4 hours of driving just to get you to walk over to that filing cabinet to let me know if what I need is there?"
"Yes."
"Are you in the same room as the filing cabinet that would contain the file for court case #_____?"
"Yes."
"Will you please go open the drawer and tell me if the file is there so I don't have to waste 4 hours of my life finding out it is not there?"
"No. You must come down here in person to see if it has been released. Thank you. Click."
Your tax dollars at work.
So Jerry and I arrange to meet in a downtown location and walk in together. He asked me to be a witness, and I was eager to meet these fine people who'd tell me to waste 4 hours of precious drive time to have the file not be there. We left our hardware in our cars as the federal building is metal-detectored.
It was there.
Here is, for now, the only thing Jerry's comfortable with me saying As we read the 15 page Statement of Probable Cause, Jerry said at least 5 times, "That is NOT TRUE!" He belabored several points at length, and at even greater length before we left. There is at least one and are possibly three or four things that the ATF couldn't prove if they tried. And they surely won't try on some of their "statements of probable cause," because they'd lose. They used as much inflammatory "evidence" as they could pull out of a dark smelly place in order to get a judge to sign a confiscation order, and that is that. And they DO accuse him of making straw sales, as well, (He contests every last one of them, vehemently.)
I will produce as much of this affidavit as Jerry permits, as soon as he says I can do so. Though it's now a matter of public record available to anyone, I respect this man enough to do what he asks. I also respect the opinions of Neal Knox, Larry Pratt and David Hardy (former NRA lawyer who is still closely allied with them), and they all suggested to not pound on this too much until ATF files charges.
Also noteworthy We asked the clerk to make two copies of this document, which totals 19 pages including the search warrant, the list of items to be stolen, and the Statement of Probable Cause. 19 pages, times 2. For our 38 pages, we were handed a bill for $19.00 and told to walk across the hall to pay it.
We did.
Finally, for now the ATF used 5 undercover agents and has been after Jerry since at least March 2, 2000. Certainly thousands and likely tens and maybe even hundreds of thousands of dollars were used to attack this man.
And all it would have taken was a couple of phone calls.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reprint permissions granted in any and all formats along with the following statement is included "Reprinted with permission from KeepAndBearArms.com, a member-supported organization that loves freedom." Spread the word. And remember that Al Gore wants to hire 1,000 more of these history-ignorant AMstapo agents, so do the right thing for your country on Super Tuesday!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Viva la resistance!!
KeepAndBearArms.com
Posted November 7, 2000
"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet."
Have the right to search your home??????????????? Anyone who believes that story 4GodandCountry posted must be looney!!
G. Mayes/// Part Time FFL Dealer/No expert on guns by any means just a Gun Loving Nut
As for my wording about the atf "having the right", well maybe they do or don't have the right, but they sure can abuse their position of authority and act like its their right to do so. As I said before, if you don't have any problem with them then thats just great, but don't try to blow smoke up peoples * telling them it can't and doesn't happen because it can and does.
"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet."
G. Mayes/// Part Time FFL Dealer/No expert on guns by any means just a Gun Loving Nut
BATF Attacks Ohio Man
From a January 5, 1995 NRA Alert:
A national commission is too late to help Louie Katona from Bucyrus, Ohio.
The Katona family is a poster family for Middle America. Louie's wife is a devoted mother. Louie himself owns a real estate agency. He was a part-time police officer and a full-time community contributor. But he is also a gun collector.
Based on a trumped-up charge that he falsified certain BATF forms, BATF entered his home. During the raid, his wife, Kimberly, became understandably agitated and upset. An overzealous agent pushed his wife against a wall. Within hours, Kimberly, then several months pregnant, began bleeding. She soon miscarried.
Did BATF apologize to this family? No. Instead, BATF pressed criminal charges against Katona. This past April, a judge threw the charges out of court. The Katona family has civil action pending against ATF.
[This information is presented as a service to the Internet community by the NRA/ILA.]
"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet."
Donald Carson:Shortly after midnight on August 15, 1992, Drug Enforcement Agents invaded Donald Carlson's California home looking for illegal drugs. When Carlson, who thought he was dealing with a criminal home invasion, called 911 and reached for the gun he kept at his bedside the invaders literally filled him full of lead. No, he didn't die -- mostly. No drugs or anything else illegal were found while Carlson must live with his disabilities for the rest of his life.
John Scott:The DEA again, and again in California: John Scott's home was invaded in October of 1992 while he was asleep. When in his befuddled state, he tried to resist, the feds and the deputy sheriffs with them riddled him with bullets, killing him. He is dead, and no illegal drugs, nor anything else illegal were found.
Sina Brush:September, 1991: Sixty DEA agents, accompanied by BATF, the National Guard, (and the U. S. Forest Service for heaven's sake!) and anyone else needed to subdue these "dangerous criminals" descended upon the home of Mrs. Sina Brush. They held her and her daughter, in their underwear, at a kneel while they searched the house for drugs, none of which were found.
Harry Lumplugh:Then there was the raid on the home of Harry and Theresa Lumplugh in Pennsylvalia. The BATF sent 15 to 20 men against this couple who were forced, at gunpoint, to open safes and hand over private papers. Agents kicked their dangerous cat to death. Again: no drugs and no charges.
Monique Montgomery: In 1994, BATF shot and killed Monique Montgomery during a dawn raid that found nothing illegal.
Louie Katona III, Ohio businessman and part-time police officer was raided by BATF. During the raid, in which nothing illegal was found, his pregnant wife was pushed against a wall and she miscarried.
"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet."
G. Mayes/// Part Time FFL Dealer/No expert on guns by any means just a Gun Loving Nut
he produced a Id I showed him my records and guns he then ask to see my personal weapons to which I said sorry they are not in the shop. He was not a happy camper. About a week later a guy came into the shop and ask if I bought weapons I said yea some so he takes a full auto ak47 out of a gun sleeve I said that is one I can not buy do to it being a class 3 weapon he said look I just need a couple hundred to
pay my rent give me 200.00 and its yours. I told him no thanks but gave him the number of a class 3 dealer. I am sure he was a fed to this day.
col elect1mike Illinois
volinters RRG
O give me a home where no democrats roam
When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
- Jesus Christ in Luke 22:36
ECC, chances are that as long as you observe every detail of the various BS firearms laws most assiduously, you will be fine.
That said, my personal experiences and the incidents of which I have personal knowledge from credible, objective, witnesses not party to the actions support the thesis reported by 4G&C, not the "kinder, gentler" agents reported by others. In absolutely the most restrained comment I have ever made, I have nothing good to say about ATF - the agency or its personnel.
elect1 - if I ever were approached by such an obvious provocateur, my first action would be to call the local / state LEOs to have it arrested in hopes that they would at least seriously embarass the individual / agency.
I am fairly new to this board . . .
And now he's a moderator.
btt just to see how long it takes someone to notice this is an antique thread.
? otherwise, you'll find an excuse.
A remarkable point, gmayes. I would like to alert all to this new judicial procedure. From now on, a police officer must simply think someone has committed a crime for that person to be found guilty. Really gets rid of all those messy constitutional rights and trials and other such things, doesn't it?
I had an FFL for 9 years in CA and I never had any trouble with the local ATF folks. They called twice during the 9 years to arrange an audit of my books. The agents were polite to and respectful of my property. The exams went quickly, they made a couple of suggestions, but that was it. No bid deal at all. I even wrote to the central office commending the agents for their professionalism.
I think as long as you do the proper paperwork and remain cooperative few dealers have real trouble.
Too old to live...too young to die...
This may be why some citizens have good experiences with the ATFE (or any government agency) and other citziens have bad experiences.
Wow...flash back from the past![:)]
So, ECC, in hind-sight, which posts were the most accurate?
When I had my FFL I only had one bad time with the ATF a agent came to my shop and ask to see all my guns I ask for a ID and he said I don't need to show you anything to which I told him no Id no look so
he produced a Id I showed him my records and guns he then ask to see my personal weapons to which I said sorry they are not in the shop. He was not a happy camper. About a week later a guy came into the shop and ask if I bought weapons I said yea some so he takes a full auto ak47 out of a gun sleeve I said that is one I can not buy do to it being a class 3 weapon he said look I just need a couple hundred to
pay my rent give me 200.00 and its yours. I told him no thanks but gave him the number of a class 3 dealer. I am sure he was a fed to this day.
col elect1mike Illinois
volinters RRG
O give me a home where no democrats roam
Isn't there a law against law enforcement "setting up" people in order to pin a case against them?
Sure! You can trust the ATF![:D]After being gun dealers for 30 years, two friends of mine were setup by the ATF agents that they personally knew and feed for many years.They had the largest gun store in Southern Louisiana. When "The Butcher of Waco" targeted them for example purposes. An ATF agent,which my friends personally knew, came into the gun store with his supposed girlfriend. The agent said that she did not like guns, so he was going to get the gun for her even if she did not want it. They sold him the gun in her presence. One hour later, the ATF and local TV news pulled up to the store, all dressed in their SWAT outfits, and arrested both of them for a "STRAY SALE" of a firearm. The ATF agents said that the "girlfriend" was a resident of Texas, and was not able to purchase a pistol in Louisiana. My friends were convicted, served 6 months in Federal prison, lost their business, lost all of their firearms, and were financially destroyed! Sure, trust the ATF![:(!]
This is a common enough story. I knew a group of young men In Arizona who had a club, made the mistake of calling it a "militia", got infiltrated by a STATE Fish & Game Warden, wound up being convicted of trumped-up charges, and served as many as 6 years in prison. Anyone who still believes, as one poster here confidently does, that agencies charged with law enforcement CANNOT or WOULD NOT resort to the things we speak of clearly has their head up their *.
Does anyone believe these stories other than 4Godandcountry??????????????????????????????????? Why would the BATFE being searching a home for drugs???TOO FAR FETCHED ON THAT ONE 4GODANDCOUNTRY!!!
G. Mayes/// Part Time FFL Dealer/No expert on guns by any means just a Gun Loving Nut
You can believe whatever you like. It's a "free" country. But your failing to smell the coffe brewing may possibly cause a crash into harsh reality for you.
Yea, you can trust'em! I gave up any idea of running a gun shop right then and there! The shop owner asked that I write a statement of my observations so that if it came up in the future had a witness to call on. I provided the statement and have not heard of the incident again.