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On this day in 1876
He Dog
Member Posts: 51,593 ✭✭✭✭
George Armstong Custer lead 263 soldiers and attached personel to their deaths on the hills above the Little Bighorn, known to the Indians as the Greasy Grass.
Custer was the posterboy for "If you start to believe your own hyperbole, you are in deep snit."
May all but he rest in peace.
Custer was the posterboy for "If you start to believe your own hyperbole, you are in deep snit."
May all but he rest in peace.
Comments
Brad Steele
George Armstong Custer lead 263 soldiers and attached personel to their deaths on the hills above the Little Bighorn, known to the Indians as the Greasy Grass.
Custer was the posterboy for "If you start to believe your own hyperbole, you are in deep snit."
May all but he rest in peace.
And a relitive of mine, Pvt. Patrick Golden, was one of them.
When I visited the Custer Monument 10 years ago, I was surprized at how much info they had on him, the details and precise location of his death.
He was member of Reno's command that executed the 1st attack on the indian camp and were driven back up the bluff above the river/camp. He survived the attack and rout and was later that day killed as he lay in a foxhole by an "*indian" sharpshooter firing from a rise about 150-200 yrds away.
I was able to find the exact location of his foxhole, which was still present as a shallow depression in the ground. And see the location of the sharpshooter who killed him.
(* It is believed that the sharpshooter who killed my relitive and several others was NOT an indian. But rather a renegade white man. Reason being that the indians were not generally considered to be good long range shots. Gunpowder was a very valueable commodity to them and with thier stalking skills it was common practice for them to remove the bullets from ammunition and remove some of the powder charge to use for other purposes. But the sharpshooter was reprtedly a very skilled long range shot.)
(*
Garryown is by far the better museum because as the indians looted the battlefield, they have far more relic's of the battle to display. Really not much to see at the Custer Monument except the battlefield itself which is also very interesting.
I had an interesting occurance once when I visited Garryowen. It was winter w/snow on the ground. Not tourist season. So the small parking lot was accessable for me in my 18 wheeler. There is C-store/gift shop there which was open, but the museum was closed. However the friendly indian man & woman running the place kindly opened it for me and I was the only one there. I spent probably an hour viewing the exhibits. And as I was about to leave, I was looking at the stuff in the gift shop for souvineer.
As I was shopping the indian man told he had noticed my Okla. based truck and said he had relitives in Okla. And then asked me how I enjoyed the museum.
I told him I had very much enjoyed the museum as I had a special interest in the battle. And then related about my relitive being one of the 7th Cav. casualties.
CONVERSATION OVER!
He turned and walked away w/o another word. Obviously holding a grudge against me for having a relitive in Custers command. The once friendly and smiling woman stood her ground at the cash register, but spent the time looking down at her shoes w/a sour expression.
It was obvious to me that I was no longer welcome, so I left.
But it always puzzled me. The museum and land the indian camp had occupied is now owned by the CROW indians, who were on Custers side in the battle.
Why would Crow indians have such a reaction to me?
For anyone who is ever interested in visiting the Little Big Horn, there are 2 museums there. One at the Custer Monument that run by the U.S. Parks. And one below where the indian camp was that is owned by the Crow indian tribe. Both can be seen from I-90, and the bottom one named "Garryowen" is right on I-90.
Garryown is by far the better museum because as the indians looted the battlefield, they have far more relic's of the battle to display. Really not much to see at the Custer Monument except the battlefield itself which is also very interesting.
I had an interesting occurance once when I visited Garryowen. It was winter w/snow on the ground. Not tourist season. So the small parking lot was accessable for me in my 18 wheeler. There is C-store/gift shop there which was open, but the museum was closed. However the friendly indian man & woman running the place kindly opened it for me and I was the only one there. I spent probably an hour viewing the exhibits. And as I was about to leave, I was looking at the stuff in the gift shop for souvineer.
As I was shopping the indian man told he had noticed my Okla. based truck and said he had relitives in Okla. And then asked me how I enjoyed the museum.
I told him I had very much enjoyed the museum as I had a special interest in the battle. And then related about my relitive being one of the 7th Cav. casualties.
CONVERSATION OVER!
He turned and walked away w/o another word. Obviously holding a grudge against me for having a relitive in Custers command. The once friendly and smiling woman stood her ground at the cash register, but spent the time looking down at her shoes w/a sour expression.
It was obvious to me that I was no longer welcome, so I left.
But it always puzzled me. The museum and land the indian camp had occupied is now owned by the CROW indians, who were on Custers side in the battle.
Why would Crow indians have such a reaction to me?
Talk about carrying a grudge way too far and for no apparent reason.
Custer was forced to go into battle with the Calvary he had, not the Calvary he wanted. Was Rumsfeld at the DOD in 1876?
I believe he's old enough.
quote:Originally posted by He Dog
George Armstong Custer lead 263 soldiers and attached personel to their deaths on the hills above the Little Bighorn, known to the Indians as the Greasy Grass.
Custer was the posterboy for "If you start to believe your own hyperbole, you are in deep snit."
May all but he rest in peace.
And a relitive of mine, Pvt. Patrick Golden, was one of them.
When I visited the Custer Monument 10 years ago, I was surprized at how much info they had on him, the details and precise location of his death.
He was member of Reno's command that executed the 1st attack on the indian camp and were driven back up the bluff above the river/camp. He survived the attack and rout and was later that day killed as he lay in a foxhole by an "*indian" sharpshooter firing from a rise about 150-200 yrds away.
I was able to find the exact location of his foxhole, which was still present as a shallow depression in the ground. And see the location of the sharpshooter who killed him.
(* It is believed that the sharpshooter who killed my relitive and several others was NOT an indian. But rather a renegade white man. Reason being that the indians were not generally considered to be good long range shots. Gunpowder was a very valueable commodity to them and with thier stalking skills it was common practice for them to remove the bullets from ammunition and remove some of the powder charge to use for other purposes. But the sharpshooter was reprtedly a very skilled long range shot.)
(*
fascinating! our educational propagandists sure wouldn't like that to be taught.
The Battle of the Little Bighorn, 1876
In late 1875, Sioux and Cheyenne Indians defiantly left their reservations, outraged over the continued intrusions of whites into their sacred lands in the Black Hills. They gathered in Montana with the great warrior Sitting Bull to fight for their lands. The following spring, two victories over the US Cavalry emboldened them to fight on in the summer of 1876.
To force the large Indian army back to the reservations, the Army dispatched three columns to attack in coordinated fashion, one of which contained Lt. Colonel George Custer and the Seventh Cavalry. Spotting the Sioux village about fifteen miles away along the Rosebud River on June 25, Custer also found a nearby group of about forty warriors. Ignoring orders to wait, he decided to attack before they could alert the main party. He did not realize that the number of warriors in the village numbered three times his strength. Dividing his forces in three, Custer sent troops under Captain Frederick Benteen to prevent their escape through the upper valley of the Little Bighorn River. Major Marcus Reno was to pursue the group, cross the river, and charge the Indian village in a coordinated effort with the remaining troops under his command. He hoped to strike the Indian encampment at the northern and southern ends simultaneously, but made this decision without knowing what kind of terrain he would have to cross before making his assault. He belatedly discovered that he would have to negotiate a maze of bluffs and ravines to attack.
Reno's squadron of 175 soldiers attacked the northern end. Quickly finding themselves in a desperate battle with little hope of any relief, Reno halted his charging men before they could be trapped, fought for ten minutes in dismounted formation, and then withdrew into the timber and brush along the river. When that position proved indefensible, they retreated uphill to the bluffs east of the river, pursued hotly by a mix of Cheyenne and Sioux.
Just as they finished driving the soldiers out, the Indians found roughly 210 of Custer's men coming towards the other end of the village, taking the pressure off of Reno's men. Cheyenne and Hunkpapa Sioux together crossed the river and slammed into the advancing soldiers, forcing them back to a long high ridge to the north. Meanwhile, another force, largely Oglala Sioux under Crazy Horse's command, swiftly moved downstream and then doubled back in a sweeping arc, enveloping Custer and his men in a pincer move. They began pouring in gunfire and arrows.
As the Indians closed in, Custer ordered his men to shoot their horses and stack the carcasses to form a wall, but they provided little protection against bullets. In less than an hour, Custer and his men were killed in the worst American military disaster ever. After another day's fighting, Reno and Benteen's now united forces escaped when the Indians broke off the fight. They had learned that the other two columns of soldiers were coming towards them, so they fled.
After the battle, the Indians came through and stripped the bodies and mutilated all the uniformed soldiers, believing that the soul of a mutilated body would be forced to walk the earth for all eternity and could not ascend to heaven. Inexplicably, they stripped Custer's body and cleaned it, but did not scalp or mutilate it. He had been wearing buckskins instead of a blue uniform, and some believe that the Indians thought he was not a soldier and so, thinking he was an innocent, left him alone. Because his hair was cut short for battle, others think that he did not have enough hair to allow for a very good scalping. Immediately after the battle, the myth emerged that they left him alone out of respect for his fighting ability, but few participating Indians knew who he was to have been so respectful. To this day, no one knows the real reason.
Little Bighorn was the pinnacle of the Indians' power. They had achieved their greatest victory yet, but soon their tenuous union fell apart in the face of the white onslaught. Outraged over the death of a popular Civil War hero on the eve of the Centennial, the nation demanded and received harsh retribution. The Black Hills dispute was quickly settled by redrawing the boundary lines, placing the Black Hills outside the reservation and open to white settlement. Within a year, the Sioux nation was defeated and broken. "Custer's Last Stand" was their last stand as well.
Carnage at the Little Bighorn
George Herendon served as a scout for the Seventh Cavalry - a civilian under contract with the army and attached to Major Reno's command. Herendon charged across the Little Bighorn River with Reno as the soldiers met an overwhelming force of Sioux streaming from their encampment. After the battle, Herendon told his story to a reporter from the New York Herald:
"Reno took a steady gallop down the creek bottom three miles where it emptied into the Little Horn, and found a natural ford across the Little Horn River. He started to cross, when the scouts came back and called out to him to hold on, that the Sioux were coming in large numbers to meet him. He crossed over, however, formed his companies on the prairie in line of battle, and moved forward at a trot but soon took a gallop.
"The Valley was about three fourth of a mile wide, on the left a line of low, round hills, and on the right the river bottom covered with a growth of cottonwood trees and bushes. After scattering shots were fired from the hills and a few from the river bottom and Reno's skirmishers returned the shots.
"He advanced about a mile from the ford to a line of timber on the right and dismounted his men to fight on foot. The horses were sent into the timber, and the men forward on the prairie and advanced toward the Indians. The Indians, mounted on ponies, came across the prairie and opened a heavy fire on the soldiers. After skirmishing for a few minutes Reno fell back to his horses in the timber. The Indians moved to his left and rear, evidently with the intention of cutting him off from the ford.
"Reno ordered his men to mount and move through the timber, but as his men got into the saddle the Sioux, who had advanced in the timber, fired at close range and killed one soldier. Colonel Reno then commanded the men to dismount, and they did so, but he soon ordered them to mount again, and moved out on to the open prairie."
"The command headed for the ford, pressed closely by Indians in large numbers, and at every moment the rate of speed was increased, until it became a dead run for the ford. The Sioux, mounted on their swift ponies, dashed up by the side of the soldiers and fired at them, killing both men and horses. Little resistance was offered, and it was complete rout to the ford. I did not see the men at the ford, and do not know what took place further than a good many were killed when the command left the timber.
"Just as I got out, my horse stumbled and fell and I was dismounted, the horse running away after Reno's command. I saw several soldiers who were dismounted, their horses having been killed or run away. There were also some soldiers mounted who had remained behind, I should think in all as many as thirteen soldiers, and seeing no chance of getting away, I called on them to come into the timber and we would stand off the Indians.
"Three of the soldiers were wounded, and two of them so badly they could not use their arms. The soldiers wanted to go out, but I said no, we can't get to the ford, and besides, we have wounded men and must stand by them. The soldiers still wanted to go, but I told them I was an old frontiers-
man, understood the Indians, and if they would do as I said I would get them out of the scrape which was no worse than scrapes I had been in before. About half of the men were mounted, and they wanted to keep their horses with them, but I told them to let the horses go and fight on foot.
"We stayed in the bush about three hours, and I could hear heavy firing below in the river, apparently about two miles distant. I did not know who it was, but knew the Indians were fighting some of our men, and learned afterward it was Custer's command. Nearly all the Indians in the upper part of the valley drew off down the river, and the fight with Custer lasted about one hour, when the heavy firing ceased. When the shooting below began to die away I said to the boys 'come, now is the time to get out.' Most of them did not go, but waited for night. I told them the Indians would come back and we had better be off at once. Eleven of the thirteen said they would go, but two stayed behind.
"I deployed the men as skirmishers and we moved forward on foot toward the river. When we had got nearly to the river we met five Indians on ponies, and they fired on us. I returned the fire and the Indians broke and we then forded the river, the water being heart deep. We finally got over, wounded men and all, and headed for Reno's command which I could see drawn up on the bluffs along the river about a mile off. We reached Reno in safety.
"We had not been with Reno more than fifteen minutes when I saw the Indians coming up the valley from Custer's fight. Reno was then moving his whole command down the ridge toward Custer. The Indians crossed the river below Reno and swarmed up the bluff on all sides. After skirmishing with them Reno went back to his old position which was on one of the highest fronts along the bluffs. It was now about five o'clock, and the fight lasted until it was too dark to see to shoot.
"As soon as it was dark Reno took the packs and saddles off the mules and horses and made breast works of them. He also dragged the dead horses and mules on the line and sheltered the men behind them. Some of the men dug rifle pits with their butcher knives and all slept on their arms.
"At the peep of day the Indians opened a heavy fire and a desperate fight ensued, lasting until 10 o'clock. The Indians charged our position three or four times, coming up close enough to hit our men with stones, which they threw by hand. Captain Benteen saw a large mass of Indians gathered on his front to charge, and ordered his men to charge on foot and scatter them.
"Benteen led the charge and was upon the Indians before they knew what they were about and killed a great many. They were evidently much surprised at this offensive movement, and I think in desperate fighting Benteen is one of the bravest men I ever saw in a fight. All the time he was going about through the bullets, encouraging the soldiers to stand up to their work and not let the Indians whip them; he went among the horses and pack mules and drove out the men who were skulking there, compelling them to go into the line and do their duty. He never sheltered his own person once during the battle, and I do not see how he escaped being killed. The desperate charging and fighting was over at about one o'clock, but firing was kept up on both sides until late in the afternoon."
References:
Connell, Evan S. Son of the Morning Star (1984); New York Herald (July 1876); Utley, Robert M. Cavalier in Buckskin; George Armstrong Custer and the Western Frontier (1988).
Why would Crow indians have such a reaction to me?
next time... ask them! [;)]
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
But it always puzzled me. The museum and land the indian camp had occupied is now owned by the CROW indians, who were on Custers side in the battle.
Why would Crow indians have such a reaction to me?
next time... ask them! [;)]
+1 for ya on that
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
But it always puzzled me. The museum and land the indian camp had occupied is now owned by the CROW indians, who were on Custers side in the battle.
Why would Crow indians have such a reaction to me?
next time... ask them! [;)]
Well, at the time I must say I was fairly surprized by the sudden change in attitude. And being as I was an unarmed, now unwelcome visitor in THEIR place, I elected to just leave w/my scalp intact.
Could he have won?
There were battles where the cavalry was outnumbered 10-1 but the troopers won, or at least fought to a draw.
What if Custer had not divided his forces?
Could he have won?
There were battles where the cavalry was outnumbered 10-1 but the troopers won, or at least fought to a draw.
I believe most military historians say that he at least could have won if he had not divided his forces. But it would depend on what type of battle tactics he used his forces. It's easy now to critique what Custer could've/should've done. But impossible to accurately speculate what he might've done, beyond what he actually did.
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Had he used repeaters he may have won.
http://www.westernerspublications.ltd.uk/CAGB Guns at the LBH.htm
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
The reason Custer lost was because of the guns he used.
Had he used repeaters he may have won.
The single shot rifles, and moreover the soft copper cartridge cases they used, carried by Custers troops contributed to the defeat. But most experts agree it was dividing his forces that was the main factor.
Custer was an arogant pompus * and thought he was dealing with an unintelligent race. Bad move on his part and the rest is history.
You hit the X-ring my good man!!
Yes, on this date in 1876, Custer donned his final Arrow shirt.
Why would Crow indians have such a reaction to me?
You really don't know? How many reservations have you visited? How many true bloods do you speak with?
quote:Originally posted by Fatstrat
Why would Crow indians have such a reaction to me?
You really don't know? How many reservations have you visited? How many true bloods do you speak with?
Did you read the entire post? They were FRIENDLY at 1st. Very friendly.
The question is why they changed after leaning my ancestor fought w/THIER ancestors against THEIR ancestors tribal enemies?
This is a man who rode off buffalo hunting alone, leaving his command and then shot his horse in the head. He sat and waited until he was found, so everyone knew what he did.
Not an idiot you say? He was certainly a man with no shame. And no lack of self admiration.
quote:Originally posted by freemind
quote:Originally posted by Fatstrat
Why would Crow indians have such a reaction to me?
You really don't know? How many reservations have you visited? How many true bloods do you speak with?
Did you read the entire post? They were FRIENDLY at 1st. Very friendly.
The question is why they changed after leaning my ancestor fought w/THIER ancestors against THEIR ancestors tribal enemies?
Yeah, I read your post. If you know many true bloods (or those whom cling to their ancestory), you would realize that many still blame "whitey". Many think "whitey" still owes them something. Many still cling to the idea that the founders and the armys (AND you by extension), are still destroying their culture. Many old indians feel this way. I know, I hear it everytime my MIL visits.
I and my wife are both of indian decent, but NEITHER of us feel this way. We have the same ideals as the founders. We make our own path in life and life, government, and people in general don't owe us snit.
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
OOOPPPPPSSSSSS-[:D]
I get it now. Filter gone crazy.[:D]
What all kind of stuff do they have in that Indian museum?
Custer's troopers were outfitted with the new Colt 1873 SAA.
Over 200 of these pistols were taken from the battlefield by the Indians.
Damn I would like to get my hands on one of those pistols.
Fatstrat:
What all kind of stuff do they have in that Indian museum?
Custer's troopers were outfitted with the new Colt 1873 SAA.
Over 200 of these pistols were taken from the battlefield by the Indians.
Damn I would like to get my hands on one of those pistols.
It's been nearly 10 years since I was last there. I recall some firearms that were reportedly used in the battle and/or captured from the 7th Cav. But I don't recall specifics. Alot of the stuff was unrecognizable from what it's original 7th Cav. purpose or use was. Either altered for a different use or heavily decorated. Boot tops made into pouches etc. Mosr all firearms were modified "indian style".
Over the years I've seen reports and postings on various gun forums of 7th Cav. Colts being discovered/sold. So there are a few of them around. They can tell by the serial numbers. HIGHLY sought after collectibles that bring an EXTREMELY PRETTY PENNY!
Yesterday I ran across a website where there were firing replica's of 7th Cav. Colts being sold. Limited numbers and as I recall, also VERY expensive.
The Crow were not on Custer's side. He had some Crow scouts, but that does not mean he had the backing of the tribe. Custer was pretty uniformly hated on the plains for his cowardly attack on the Cheyenne on the Wapoopa Creek.
This is a man who rode off buffalo hunting alone, leaving his command and then shot his horse in the head. He sat and waited until he was found, so everyone knew what he did.
Not an idiot you say? He was certainly a man with no shame. And no lack of self admiration.
As one who has had a lifelong interest in American history, and who read extensively on the American indians, I beg to differ. The Crows were tribal enemies of the Sioux, who amoung the plains indians were as much or more hated by differing tribes as the whites. Reason being that the Sioux were probably the largest and most powerfull tribe of the northern plains. And as such, did EXACTLY what they opposed the white man doing. They threw their weight around, invaded smaller tribes territories at will, depleted thier hunting grounds. And even raided thier villages, killing and stealing at will.
The principle reason tribes such as the Crow threw thier lot in w/the whites and provided scouts and intel, was that they hated the Sioux and wanted to see them destroyed.
The massacre at the Wash-ita river was againgt the Cheyenne who had a rare alliance w/the Sioux. Probably because they were nearly as powerfull on the N.Plains. Alot like how the U.S. and Soviets don't really like one another, but maintain friendly relations to aviod a devistating war. The Cheyenne, who tended towards a more southern territory, and the Sioux respected one another as powerfull rivals. And the attack instagated an even rarer collaboration to fight the whites.
PJ
Registered American Indian
AIC Chicago
quote:Originally posted by MT357
quote:Originally posted by CHGOTHNDER
Custer was an arogant pompus * and thought he was dealing with an unintelligent race. Bad move on his part and the rest is history.
You hit the X-ring my good man!!
Yes, on this date in 1876, Custer donned his final Arrow shirt.
I still stand by my statement.
PJ
Registered American Indian
AIC Chicago
quote:Originally posted by MT357
quote:Originally posted by CHGOTHNDER
Custer was an arogant pompus * and thought he was dealing with an unintelligent race. Bad move on his part and the rest is history.
You hit the X-ring my good man!!
Yes, on this date in 1876, Custer donned his final Arrow shirt.
I don't believe anyone has disputed it.
I still stand by my statement.
PJ
Registered American Indian
AIC Chicago
Which tribe? If you don't mind my asking.
Great read, Chgothunder. I wonder what happened to the two troops who chose to stay all night in the woods by the Little Big Horn?
Custer was forced to go into battle with the Calvary he had, not the Calvary he wanted. Was Rumsfeld at the DOD in 1876?
actually he was suppose to wait for reinforcements and the artillery to arrive. his mistake was to underestimate the number of his enemies that was there.. he thought that there was only about 25% of what was actually there. and also the guns that the Indians had were Winchester lever actions. that were capable of shooting 35-40 rounds a min. Custer's men only had single shoot sharps (fine gun but is only capable of 10-15 rounds a min.) its bad enough that all these men died for no reason, had he waited the out come would have beem different but the worse part is that it was the Indians belief that even in the after life your enemies will still be your enemies. so it was customary to mutilate there dead enemies by cutting off the extremities so that in the after life, their enemies couldn't take arms against them. yes it was a massacre... but Custer is to blame. not the Indians, and not thst he was ordered to fight with just the troops he had just Custer's arrogates
quote:Originally posted by freemind
quote:Originally posted by CHGOTHNDER
I still stand by my statement.
PJ
Registered American Indian
AIC Chicago
Which tribe? If you don't mind my asking.
What nation?
Followed by, What band?
Don't ask if the answer won't mean something to you, as you will be expected to reply appropriately.
Not being mean, just saying don't get started and end up short. Loss of face.
Well Mr. nice guy, save your smart alec remarks. Tribe/nation are interchangeable terms to some. My wife happens to have her papers, so I might know a little something about it. I don't, nor WILL I ever register. I find the whole matter of "paperwork" quite offensive. How many blacks, latinos, asians, OR ANY other race, do you see HAVING to register their ancestory?
I was merely asking a question to someone else, and I am pretty sure YOU can't answer it.