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Coast Guard Air Force?
Red223
Member Posts: 7,946
Looks like the Air Force found something else to contract out....Air Defense of our nations capitol is now the Coast Guards job:
http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/415197802/m/1020020980001
I find that funny myself.
http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/415197802/m/1020020980001
I find that funny myself.
Comments
For example (numbers are approximate):
Cessna 152 cruise speed 90 mph, stall speed 50 mph.
F-16 stall speed 85 mph. (and it probably handles like a pig at low speeds)
or even worse:
Piper Cub *max* speed 92 mph (cruises at 82 mph), stall speed 36 mph.
See a problem?
Meanwhile, the Coast Guard's HH-65C helicopters have a max speed of about 175 mph, can hover, and can land at any runway the intercepted plane lands at (F-16s can't land at many runways because the runways aren't long enough).
While the Coast Guard might have primary responsibility, I'm sure there are still some F-16s on alert at the local Air Force base in case something serious pops up.
Looks like the Air Force found something else to contract out....Air Defense of our nations capitol is now the Coast Guards job
Sounds like they're a bit behind over on that board.
The Coast Guard is actually taking this mission over from Customs and Border Protection, who've had this role for about four years now. The changeover to the Coast Guard was made due to their falling under DoD but also having civilian law enforcement authority.
Their mission here is only to identify, perform initial intercept and attempt radio contact with low-altitude suspicious targets identified on radar. They're also authorized to land and conduct investigations on these aircraft. Appropriate military aircraft continue to be maintained on alert and, in addition to their other intercept duties, are called in if deemed necessary.
A big reason behind using the CG's routine patrol/alert rotorcraft in this role is that we no longer have to scramble fighters everytime a flock of migrating geese passing through the area shows up on radar. That gets expensive.
And also remember the CG is still a part of our military forces.
And I'm sure that the Air Force will still play a vital part of this.
Looks like the Air Force found something else to contract out....Air Defense of our nations capitol is now the Coast Guards job:
http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/415197802/m/1020020980001
I find that funny myself.
... I find it funnier that you believe the Air Force (alone) has the authority to contract any of their responsibilities to other branches of service.
quote:Originally posted by Red223
Looks like the Air Force found something else to contract out....Air Defense of our nations capitol is now the Coast Guards job:
http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/415197802/m/1020020980001
I find that funny myself.
... I find it funnier that you believe the Air Force (alone) has the authority to contract any of their responsibilities to other branches of service.
LOL.....ever notice how the US Navy provides 99% of all air support during actual wars now?
BTW...the F-16's that first flew in to NYC on 9-11 were 100% unarmed aircraft. Billy Clinton eliminated our 24/7 manned F-16's at our nations borders to intercept aircraft. As of today there are no armed F-16's manned 24/7 to intercept anything.
The USAF is so gay with all of their safety crap that came about from the Clinton Era I CAN NOT WAIT to see how they are going to poop their pants when the US Marines move from Japan to Guam. I've already seen a Navy pilot slap a Air Force NCO and get away with it....and the fun ain't even begun yet.
.....ever notice how the US Navy provides 99% of all air support during actual wars now?
As of today there are no armed F-16's manned 24/7 to intercept anything.
Both of these statements are laughable.
quote:Originally posted by FEENIX
quote:Originally posted by Red223
Looks like the Air Force found something else to contract out....Air Defense of our nations capitol is now the Coast Guards job:
http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/415197802/m/1020020980001
I find that funny myself.
... I find it funnier that you believe the Air Force (alone) has the authority to contract any of their responsibilities to other branches of service.
LOL.....ever notice how the US Navy provides 99% of all air support during actual wars now?
BTW...the F-16's that first flew in to NYC on 9-11 were 100% unarmed aircraft. Billy Clinton eliminated our 24/7 manned F-16's at our nations borders to intercept aircraft. As of today there are no armed F-16's manned 24/7 to intercept anything.
The USAF is so gay with all of their safety crap that came about from the Clinton Era I CAN NOT WAIT to see how they are going to poop their pants when the US Marines move from Japan to Guam. I've already seen a Navy pilot slap a Air Force NCO and get away with it....and the fun ain't even begun yet.
I guess you are still missing the point. You use the word "contract", and no one in DOD regardless of branch of service can just arbitrarily contract anything without due process through the OMB A-76 Circular Competitive Sourcing guidelines.
LOL.....ever notice how the US Navy provides 99% of all air support during actual wars now?
BTW...the F-16's that first flew in to NYC on 9-11 were 100% unarmed aircraft. Billy Clinton eliminated our 24/7 manned F-16's at our nations borders to intercept aircraft. As of today there are no armed F-16's manned 24/7 to intercept anything.
The USAF is so gay with all of their safety crap that came about from the Clinton Era I CAN NOT WAIT to see how they are going to poop their pants when the US Marines move from Japan to Guam. I've already seen a Navy pilot slap a Air Force NCO and get away with it....and the fun ain't even begun yet.
As to the first part, it's not surprising at all, aircraft carriers are usually the first on the scene
Regarding the rest of your post, you might want recheck with some folks at Andrews AFB about that.
quote:Originally posted by FEENIX
quote:Originally posted by Red223
Looks like the Air Force found something else to contract out....Air Defense of our nations capitol is now the Coast Guards job:
http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/415197802/m/1020020980001
I find that funny myself.
... I find it funnier that you believe the Air Force (alone) has the authority to contract any of their responsibilities to other branches of service.
LOL.....ever notice how the US Navy provides 99% of all air support during actual wars now?
BTW...the F-16's that first flew in to NYC on 9-11 were 100% unarmed aircraft. Billy Clinton eliminated our 24/7 manned F-16's at our nations borders to intercept aircraft. As of today there are no armed F-16's manned 24/7 to intercept anything.
The USAF is so gay with all of their safety crap that came about from the Clinton Era I CAN NOT WAIT to see how they are going to poop their pants when the US Marines move from Japan to Guam. I've already seen a Navy pilot slap a Air Force NCO and get away with it....and the fun ain't even begun yet.
... so you let a Navy pilot slap an Air Force NCO and let him/her get away with it [?][:(!][V]
I guess you are still missing the point. You use the word "contract", and no one in DOD regardless of branch of service can just arbitrarily contract anything without due process through the OMB A-76 Circular Competitive Sourcing guidelines.
Wrong. Russian AN 124's are providing airlift for the US military. They got around that whole competitive bidding thing by going the NATO contracting route. We rub Russia's back....they help us with our problems.
""... so you let a Navy pilot slap an Air Force NCO and let him/her get away with it""
I'm just a pee on civilian, no authority whatsoever over any uniformed person. Anyhow the AF NCO kinda deserved it. He's been beaten down by even the AF Brass for following the details in the book a little too closely and not respecting the authority of aircraft commanders. AF regs say no passengers can be on an aircraft while loading small arms ammo on the plane. Navy regs say who gives a rats. So this AF NCO made all the Navy folk get off their plane before the AF loaded the Navy ammo on the aircraft and the Navy pilot was very bothered by it.
www.1maw.usmc.mil these boys are coming to Guam so either the AF will need to lighten up on some * regs or face the wrath of some warfighters that may show their views in a more physical way.
Sorry, but I find your story of an officer getting away scot-free with slapping an NCO for following safety regs about as likely as the tale that no alert fighter aircraft exist in the US.
+1. There is no substitute for safety. The AF NCO is just following the T.O (technical orders) ... by order of the Sec. of the AF. You cannot fault anyone for following T.O.s.
Sorry, but I find your story of an officer getting away scot-free with slapping an NCO for following safety regs about as likely as the tale that no alert fighter aircraft exist in the US.
No alert armed fighter aircraft responded to 9-11. Not one Armed aircraft showed up to get filmed by CNN. Only unarmed aircraft owned by non-active duty units showed up to make the sheeple feel better.
quote:Originally posted by FEENIX
I guess you are still missing the point. You use the word "contract", and no one in DOD regardless of branch of service can just arbitrarily contract anything without due process through the OMB A-76 Circular Competitive Sourcing guidelines.
Wrong. Russian AN 124's are providing airlift for the US military. They got around that whole competitive bidding thing by going the NATO contracting route. We rub Russia's back....they help us with our problems.
Don't confuse yourself with a contract function (outsourced or privitized) to SOFA (Status of Forces Agreement), MOU/A (Memorandum of Understanding/Agreement), or treaties. This sounds like it is part of the SALT treaty. I am sure that your treaty officer under the Wing Staff agency can further elaborate it.
""... so you let a Navy pilot slap an Air Force NCO and let him/her get away with it""
I'm just a pee on civilian, no authority whatsoever over any uniformed person. Anyhow the AF NCO kinda deserved it. He's been beaten down by even the AF Brass for following the details in the book a little too closely and not respecting the authority of aircraft commanders. AF regs say no passengers can be on an aircraft while loading small arms ammo on the plane. Navy regs say who gives a rats. So this AF NCO made all the Navy folk get off their plane before the AF loaded the Navy ammo on the aircraft and the Navy pilot was very bothered by it.
WRONG! You too is part of the total force and is up to you to make that difference. There is no substitute for safety. Until it is changed, no one can fault the AF NCO for following the T.O.s by order of the Sec. of the AF.
www.1maw.usmc.mil these boys are coming to Guam so either the AF will need to lighten up on some * regs or face the wrath of some warfighters that may show their views in a more physical way.
WRONG AGAIN! Anderson is an AF installation and anyone regarless of branch of service must adhere to the installation's policies, regulations, etc.. regardless how * it may sound. Likewise, if an USAF, USCG, USN, USA, must adhere to Camp Pendleton's. Having said all that, I am sure USMC will negotiate what they need to accomplish their mission.
These things are pretty darn fast, they have a max speed of 175 KNOTS, not miles per hour. In miles per hour that works out to about 201.
F-16's are good for defending US airspace, but the specific local airspace around DC (a 10 mile square right?) is best served by other aircraft.
Any fast mover threats the airforce should intercept long before they get within DC airspace. I think we are only talking about the coast gaurd handling domestic airspace infractions, coming from our own airports. If some jets were to launch from Cuba, or a long flight across the Atlantic, or from a carrier off our coast (like it would be able to just show up without the Navy seeing it), I'm sure the airforce would be intercepting them with F-16's/15's/22's/35's. DC airspace is really to small to warrant its own shield of 16's, its more of a second layer of air defense that the coast guard is taking over, the much broader AF shield is still in effect.
Besides, Ill bet there are hidden ground based ADS all over the place around washington if they really need to take out a fast high flying aircraft and there are no F-16's around.
I hope they put a mini gun on it though..... that 65, while sleek, isnt too scary. I think the main part of an intercept is physically getting close to them and establishing visual contact if radio contact cant be made, and guiding them out. Ill bet a ground system does the shooting down if the interceptor fails to divert the aircraft.
I still recomend apaches/cobras armed with a 30 mm chaingun/20 or 7.62 mm gatling gun, 70 mm rockets, and hellfire and sidewinder missiles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_National_Guard
Unarmed National Guard aircraft were flying.
Feenix, how is the Coast Guard going to perform air to air shoot downs with their helicopters? Fire a belt fed machine gun over a populated city at a commercial airliner doing 500+mph? Maybe slide the door open and fire a surface to air shoulder fired missile at some pesky terrorist controlled aircraft??
A FIM-92 Stinger may do the trick, but has it ever been fired from a moving helicopter via some guy sticking it out the door??
The Coast Guard HH-65A is at the end of it's service life and is either being replaced this year or upgrade to last until 2015. It will only do 138mph and fly for 3 whole hours max.
What a superb air defense platform they chose for air defense 'eh?
I watched the live feeds on 9/11 and the Vermont Air National Guard was not flying over NYC on 9-11.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_National_Guard
Unarmed National Guard aircraft were flying.
Feenix, how is the Coast Guard going to perform air to air shoot downs with their helicopters? Fire a belt fed machine gun over a populated city at a commercial airliner doing 500+mph? Maybe slide the door open and fire a surface to air shoulder fired missile at some pesky terrorist controlled aircraft??
A FIM-92 Stinger may do the trick, but has it ever been fired from a moving helicopter via some guy sticking it out the door??
The Coast Guard HH-65A is at the end of it's service life and is either being replaced this year or upgrade to last until 2015. It will only do 138mph and fly for 3 whole hours max.
What a superb air defense platform they chose for air defense 'eh?
I thought CA sucks covered it very well but I guess you still do not get it. According to your original post The Coast Guard is fully ready to support NORAD in providing air defense in the National Capitol Region."
The Coast Guard will support the North American Aerospace Defense Command's mission with its rotary wing air intercept capability. Coast Guard HH-65C helicopters and crews will be responsible for intercepting unauthorized aircraft which fly into an air defense identification zone surrounding Washington.
You are taking the article literally. It is primer to get readers get excited. The Coast Guard is in support (but very important) role in the homeland security. It is only a small piece (and again very important role) of the big puzzle (total force). If you still do not understand this concept, fly over the restricted space and see it for yourself who responds to that particular threat [}:)]. The bottomline, it does not really matter which branch of service or other entity, as long as the threat is removed. Enough said!
Most interceptors today have the role of making it known that if they do not turn around, they will get a SAM up their tailpipe.
I really don't see slow flying cesna's being a problem for ground based air defense systems. These interceptors are meant to prevent aircraft from being shot down, not to shoot them down.
You only need air superiority fighters and armed interceptors against warplanes armed with missiles that can be fied from dozens(if not hundreds) of miles away, where an ADS cannot possibly take them out before they release their payload.
This thing is too slow to intercept jet liners, so its safe to assume its not going to take over that role.
Just look at its specs, its obvious its taking over the role of intercepting small piston engine aircraft, which cant even do that much damage (moving alot slower, with less mass, it probably wouldnt have made it through hte pentagons first layer of reenforced concrete)
Cesnas and other light aircraft have engines of roughly the same horspower as a peppy car(I recently flew an Extra-300L- 300 hp)
They also don't go much faster than the fastest sport cars(a lamborghini at 200 will beat a cesna(but not an SF 260 marchetti).
They dont cary thousands of pounts of fuel, their gas tanks hold on the order of about 20 gallons (the extra 300L i flew held 22).
They arent that much deadlier than a frigging car, you don't need a multimillion dollar fighter to stop them.
Look at it this way, the airforce can stop policing private pilots that are too stupid to read their sectional charts, and focus on airdefense against real threats.
I say a gun or stinger missile tubes(stingers are fired from vehicle moutned tubes, as well as shoulder launchers) would enhance its role.
When your puttering along in your cesna at 80 knots with your radio off, and a helo flies up next to you, you may ignore it, think its some irresponsible pilot playing around, and just move a safe distance away, hope he leaves you alone, and continue flying towards the whitehouse.
Yea, this pilot may be stupid and not realize the official coast gaurd helicopter is there to tell him to leave.
But if he looks over, and sees a 6 barreled gatling gun and an array of stinger missiles, he'll get the point quicker.
The real force is in the SAM sites on the ground, that cannot be seen by the pilot in the air. Thats why its nice to have a show of force in the air as well to get them to comply faster.
I've been working in places with restricted air space for a long time. There are many places with 'secured' air space that have absolutely no means to defend that air space...and that air space gets violated daily.
Again....how on Earth would a Coast Guard helicopter provide air defense? It has no air to air fighting capability.
They might as well assigned the job to the Channel 10 news copter....it's got the same armament.....nothing. Atleast the Channel 10 copter could shoot pictures.[:D]
Maybe it would be cheaper to contract it out and we could get the contract. We'll put hot air balloons over NYC with .50 cal snipers ready to shoot down airliners....LOL....about as funny as the Coast Guard providing some kind of air defense.
I watched the live feeds on 9/11 and the Vermont Air National Guard was not flying over NYC on 9-11.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_National_Guard
Wikipedia? Yer jokin' right?
Clouder..
quote:Originally posted by Red223
I watched the live feeds on 9/11 and the Vermont Air National Guard was not flying over NYC on 9-11.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_National_Guard
Wikipedia? Yer jokin' right?
Clouder..
[:D][:D][:D]!
Again....how on Earth would a Coast Guard helicopter provide air defense? It has no air to air fighting capability.Sigh...
If you'll read the reponses you'll find this has been answered pretty clearly for you.
It's not the function of these rotorcraft to shoot down anything. They are there to simply intercept/identify low and slow threats which are picked up by various NORAD resources. This can range from shadowing of questionable aircraft to actual intercept, where the pilot is signaled to land for investigation. These USCG rotorcraft are capable of landing with suspect aircraft and conducting investigations due to their crews also having civilian law enforcement powers.
If it should become necessary, the actual firepower to bring down aircraft would come from other sources. Armed fighters, which have responded to literally thousands of suspicious aircraft incidents around the country since 9/11, are only one portion of this defensive capability.
quote:Originally posted by Red223
Again....how on Earth would a Coast Guard helicopter provide air defense? It has no air to air fighting capability.Sigh...
If you'll read the reponses you'll find this has been answered pretty clearly for you.
It's not the function of these rotorcraft to shoot down anything. They are there to simply intercept/identify low and slow threats which are picked up by various NORAD resources. This can range from shadowing of questionable aircraft to actual intercept, where the pilot is signaled to land for investigation. These USCG rotorcraft are capable of landing with suspect aircraft and conducting investigations due to their crews also having civilian law enforcement powers.
If it should become necessary, the actual firepower to bring down aircraft would come from other sources. Armed fighters, which have responded to literally thousands of suspicious aircraft incidents around the country since 9/11, are only one portion of this defensive capability.
[:D][:D][:D]!
FEENIX,
I've been working in places with restricted air space for a long time. There are many places with 'secured' air space that have absolutely no means to defend that air space...and that air space gets violated daily.
Again....how on Earth would a Coast Guard helicopter provide air defense? It has no air to air fighting capability.
They might as well assigned the job to the Channel 10 news copter....it's got the same armament.....nothing. Atleast the Channel 10 copter could shoot pictures.[:D]
Maybe it would be cheaper to contract it out and we could get the contract. We'll put hot air balloons over NYC with .50 cal snipers ready to shoot down airliners....LOL....about as funny as the Coast Guard providing some kind of air defense.
OK, I know it is not in wikipedia but this special HH-65A is configured for this mission and when switch to it's A-Wolf mode, the aircrew has access to its impressive array of weaponry. With an aircrew the likes of Stringfellow Hawke and Dominic Santini, it can take down any threat/adversary out there.
[:p]!