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Oil ?

MossbergboogieMossbergboogie Member Posts: 12,211
edited May 2006 in General Discussion
I bought a case of pennzoil 5w30 for 28.00 roughly. now how do they price that stuff. just another curious thought.
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Comments

  • LowriderLowrider Member Posts: 6,587
    edited November -1
    Pennzoil is worth about 1/10 of what you paid.
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  • kyplumberkyplumber Member Posts: 11,111
    edited November -1
    Castrol GTX


    High performance engines require it! Ask any rotary nut...
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  • MossbergboogieMossbergboogie Member Posts: 12,211
    edited November -1
    Thats not the question guys but whatever floats your boat.
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  • kristovkristov Member Posts: 6,633
    edited November -1
    Of course motor oil is priced to make a profit for oil companies but it is not as easy as making a profit from refining gasoline or diesel fuel. A quart of crude oil would currently sell for about 38 cents but as an engine lubricant crude oil is useless. When we visit a refinery (like Union Oil where my ex-wife and I worked as engineers 20 years ago)we find all sorts of fractions being distilled from crude oil, with gasoline being the product most in demand. Lubricating oils are heavier fractions and do not need to be as refined as motor fuels so less effort goes into producing a quart of motor oil than a quart of gasoline. You can also refine motor oil from "sour" crude and unlike gasoline, the crude oil intended for engine and lubricating oils do not need costly cracking. Once it is refined motor oil needs additives like detergents, antioxidants ,antiwear agents, antifoamants, viscosity modifiers, pour point depressants and corrosion Inhibitors. The chemicals which make up these additives are typically not very costly so they do not add much to the price of motor oil. It is possible to make very expensive motor oils which excede API standards (which are set at the minimum allowed) by upping the amount of additives. What makes motor oil costly is the simple fact that consumers don't use enough of it, or at least not enough in the opinion of oil comapnies, so they have to price it high enough to make a good up front profit from you when you come in off the street. Although you will be right back at the pump next week (or sooner) for another twenty gallons of gasoline, chances are good you won't be buying another case of 5W-30 for at least another six months. Since motor oil stores well for two years or more when in it remains in it's sealed container you can stock up. Exxon-Mobil thinks that is a long time between purchases and they'd like you to change your oil every 3,000 miles, whether you need to or not- probably not. They'd also like you to fill up with premium even though 80% of the vehicles on the road were designed to operate with regular (87 pump octane) unleaded gasoline.
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  • third_shot_flyerthird_shot_flyer Member Posts: 69 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by kristov
    Of course motor oil is priced to make a profit for oil companies but it is not as easy as making a profit from refining gasoline or diesel fuel. A quart of crude oil would currently sell for about 38 cents but as an engine lubricant crude oil is useless. When we visit a refinery (like Union Oil where my ex-wife and I worked as engineers 20 years ago)we find all sorts of fractions being distilled from crude oil, with gasoline being the product most in demand. Lubricating oils are heavier fractions and do not need to be as refined as motor fuels so less effort goes into producing a quart of motor oil than a quart of gasoline. You can also refine motor oil from "sour" crude and unlike gasoline, the crude oil intended for engine and lubricating oils do not need costly cracking. Once it is refined motor oil needs additives like detergents, antioxidants ,antiwear agents, antifoamants, viscosity modifiers, pour point depressants and corrosion Inhibitors. The chemicals which make up these additives are typically not very costly so they do not add much to the price of motor oil. It is possible to make very expensive motor oils which excede API standards (which are set at the minimum allowed) by upping the amount of additives. What makes motor oil costly is the simple fact that consumers don't use enough of it, or at least not enough in the opinion of oil comapnies, so they have to price it high enough to make a good up front profit from you when you come in off the street. Although you will be right back at the pump next week (or sooner) for another twenty gallons of gasoline, chances are good you won't be buying another case of 5W-30 for at least another six months. Since motor oil stores well for two years or more when in it remains in it's sealed container you can stock up. Exxon-Mobil thinks that is a long time between purchases and they'd like you to change your oil every 3,000 miles, whether you need to or not- probably not. They'd also like you to fill up with premium even though 80% of the vehicles on the road were designed to operate with regular (87 pump octane) unleaded gasoline.




    I was just about to say that.
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  • LowriderLowrider Member Posts: 6,587
    edited November -1
    One word: Synthetic
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  • MossbergboogieMossbergboogie Member Posts: 12,211
    edited November -1
    Thanks thats was exactly what i was looking for. but know i have another question if i changed to synthetic can i go 5000 miles or whats the deal.
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  • LowriderLowrider Member Posts: 6,587
    edited November -1
    I use Amsoil. With their synthetic oil and their filter they claim 15,000 miles or more between changes.

    I don't go that long but I DO go 5000 or more.
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  • willdallas2006willdallas2006 Member Posts: 285 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I drive atleast 5k between changes when using synthetic oil. Its not uncommon for me to actually go a few thousand over 5 by the time I get around to changing it.
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  • Red223Red223 Member Posts: 7,946
    edited November -1
    My wife's new Hyundai says it requires oil changes every 7,500 miles on conventional oil.

    I'll let it go 10,000 with synthetic. Who cares...it's only a Hyundai.
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  • Mk 19Mk 19 Member Posts: 8,170
    edited November -1
    My Chevy Venture has a oil life meter and tells you when to change the oil, on regular oil it would go off at 3,500 mi, on synthetic it goes till 8,500!!! So of course I change it at 10,000[;)]
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  • EXLOGGEREXLOGGER Member Posts: 5 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Mk 19
    My Chevy Venture has a oil life meter and tells you when to change the oil, on regular oil it would go off at 3,500 mi, on synthetic it goes till 8,500!!! So of course I change it at 10,000[;)]

    I think you might be pushing the envelope a little too far!
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  • Mk 19Mk 19 Member Posts: 8,170
    edited November -1
    quote:
    Originally posted by Mk 19

    My Chevy Venture has a oil life meter and tells you when to change the oil, on regular oil it would go off at 3,500 mi, on synthetic it goes till 8,500!!! So of course I change it at 10,000


    I think you might be pushing the envelope a little too far! quote:

    Exlogger, at 10,000 the oil is comming out nice and clean with no discoloration, (yes, I know what to look for, I've been building engines for 10 years) that syntec looks better at 10,000 than regular oil at 3,000 and I drive the snot out of this thing, the van is just 1 1/2 yrs old and it already has 85,000 mi on the ticker, most of it at 80+ MPH[:D]
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  • allen griggsallen griggs Member Posts: 35,690 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I change my oil every 5,000 miles.
    I use conventional oil, and I have 285,000 miles on the truck.
    Castrol 10W30.
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  • kristovkristov Member Posts: 6,633
    edited November -1
    The type of oil you need should be determined by the type of driving you do. If you live in a rural area and take a nice 20 mile drive to work every morning at moderate speeds then very little demand is placed on your engine oil. If you struggle those same 20 miles in urban bumper to bumper/stop and go traffic or your car does nothing but short trips around town all day your oil is under much greater strain to perform. Petroleum is a useful lubricant but science can create lubricants which are much better, although these are always more expensive. If you operate your car or truck in low temperatures or in high heat under heavy loads (like pulling a trailer) your oil is going to be working very hard. Heat will start to break down mineral based motor oils at around 275F and if temperatures reach around 325F your oil has only hours to live. At around 400F mineral based motor oil is severely damaged and at 425F it will coke, cutting off lubrication to your engine and the end is near. Low temperatures are nearly as bad because condensation builds up in the oil and water inside your engine is never a good thing. 220F is an optimal temperature for mineral based oils since temperature is high enough to remove any condensation (water boils at 212F) but this also remains well within the operating heat range of the oil. Synthetics can handle high heat with very little trouble and running synthectic oil at over 300F is not an issue and while touching 400F for short periods will shorten a synthectic oil's life, it will not break down at that temperature.

    Something that the oil companies don't want you to know is that oil itself does not wear out. In fact the hydrocarbon molecules in petroleum are tough little devils and that is why they have to be attacked so hard at the refinery in order to break them down (high heat and chemical cracking)! With a good quality oil filter and a good air filter there is very little dirt entering your engine oil so oil does not get "dirty" either. The change in color from gold (or green) to black is almost always a result of the chemical reactions that the detergent additives inside the oil under go. What does get used up in the oil is the additive package and if you buy plain jane motor oil you are getting just the minimum amounts of additives allowed in the API specs. Premium oils have more additives and can hold out longer before these additives are used up or deluted. If you could run your engine day and night at a comfortable room temperature of around 70F using a moderate throttle setting the engine's oil would last for thousands of hours of service before it would need to be changed. Of course no one has a car which lives in such a perfect world. Gas turbines, which operate in fixed locations, run at constant speeds for days on end and burn clean fules like propane or natural gas will likely never need oil changes at all until they reach their service interval and are taken out of service for inspection. I'd like to hear from our powerplant engineer codenamePual on that issue.

    Long story short: 5,000 miles on synthectics is easy and 7500 miles quite possible. At 10K you need to examine what kinds of driving you have been doing to determine just how much longer the oil should remain in serivce. Under optimal conditions you could probably go 15K on full synthetics but I can't see risking the engine to save a few bucks by pushing the issue. I use Mobil-1 in all of my Mercedes and change the oil at 8000 intervals...BUT I always change the oil filter at 4000 miles (half way between actual oil changes) and then top up with more Mobil-1. You will never damage an engine by changing your oil too often and you won't hurt it by burning premium gasoline either, but most of the time you are just wasting your money by doing either and the oil comapanies just sit back watch their cash registers ring up more profit!
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  • fishkiller41fishkiller41 Member Posts: 50,608
    edited November -1
    Synthetic oils may still look clean after 10-15000 mi.But it's the viscosity break-down that will kill your main bearings.Best to go by manufacturer specs.
    Jeff
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  • MossbergboogieMossbergboogie Member Posts: 12,211
    edited November -1
    Thanks again guys but i think Kristov gives me the most information he really knows his stuff
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  • 2-barrel2-barrel Member Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I didn't know penzoil was oil. I thought it was sludge from the bottom of the sewer plant.[:D][;)]
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  • CaptplaidCaptplaid Member Posts: 20,298 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Anything but penzoil!

    I have been using JD 15W40 Plus 50.
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  • cowdoccowdoc Member Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Pennzoil aka pennzdirt unless its gotten to be better oil i'll never use it...imho...have tore apart enough engines that is was used in....but if your dumping in something that has had pennz in it for long time just as well keep using it....i use mobil one in my gas engine vehicles and John deere 15-40 +50 in my diesel pickup or synthetic 5-40 in winter can get very cold here in the winter and synthetic oil really shines for cold temp starts... imho
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  • kyplumberkyplumber Member Posts: 11,111
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by chrishiher
    Thanks again guys but i think Kristov gives me the most information he really knows his stuff


    ok, putnin... thanks buddy..

    We love the AK and wish to show you why...
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  • kristovkristov Member Posts: 6,633
    edited November -1
    Another way to look at changing motor oil is by hours of service. The API mandates a test for motor oils which wish to be certified and if they pass the test they can be marketed in the United States and bear the API donut on the container. The test runs for 216 hours because this is considered the useful life on a mineral based motor oil. At an average spped of 45 mph 216 hours gets you about 10,000 miles, not bad at all. The probelm here is that very few of us drive at a constant speed of 45 mph for 200 straight hours! Most people in fact manage to cover perhaps 5,000 miles in 200 hours of passenger vehicle operation, or an average speed of 25 mph. If you are using mineral based motor oil and going longer than 200 hours between oil changes you may be pushing that oil to it's limit. There are a lot of differeing opinions on this but if you notice there are virtually no passenger vehicles sold with engine hour chronometers while nearly all large trucks and heavy equipment have these meters to track their service intervals. Automobile companies figure the average car buyer is a total idiot so it is much easier to just tell him to change his motor oil every 5,000 miles rather than have him accurately track the time the oil has been in service. This is the same reason they did away with all those useful gauges on the intrument panel- they just got you confused: " My God, my oil temperature is 225 degrees" (when in fact that is a near ideal operating temperature for motor oil). 300+ hours of serivce are not at all unusual for full synthectic oils but to keep to your car's warranty in effect you'll have to follow the manufacturers guidelines, even when using sythectic oil.
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  • kyplumberkyplumber Member Posts: 11,111
    edited November -1
    kristov...

    Explain to your fellow laymen how their vehicles were not designed to run off of ethanol...

    Then we need a Public accountant to explain the costs of this maneuver..

    Then we need a lawyer to explain to you that bascially your screwed either way, but hey give us your money and we'll tell the courts!
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